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Can anyone explain to me why christianity and the christian god make any sense?

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posted on Jun, 25 2011 @ 02:04 PM
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double
edit on 25-6-2011 by ExistentialNightmare because: accidental




posted on Jun, 25 2011 @ 02:59 PM
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reply to post by ExistentialNightmare
 



We're going in circles; this has been my point all along; You CLAIM it's coming from God yet you have exactly the same information as i do regarding the unknown. (unless you play the experience card)


I have simply answered your question, concerning God´s Judgement to those that never heard of God. And i have answer it as is written in the NT. Namely that you are accountable for your actions to Him, and not to religion. Simple as that. Personal experiences is not something that you or i or anyone have right to make fun of. A personal experience is just that(Personal).


The bible makes extraordinary claims; which i pull into question; why should i believe them? For what reasons?


It´s good to pull things into question. I am doing it also. But, i am not doing it in order to disprove anything, i am doing it in order to understand(Spiritual Understanding).

No one is forcing you to believe anything. If you want to believe then do so. If not then not. When you choose to believe, you are doing it for your own reasons and not because person x told me to do so.


It's one thing to claim a deity exists (Deism) it's an entirely different claim to say you understand the deities mind (THEISM) Again....extraordinary claims.


I agree. I think there is also a verse in the Bible which says that no one knows the mind of God, if i am not mistaken.


Of course they wrote about "doubters" in the bible; because they knew their extraordinary claims could not be verified, and thus inevitably disbelieved.


...or to make you think what if it´s true.



I don't see any other reason other than faith to believe such claims.


Yeap it´s called Faith.


And i don't consider (blind) faith a virtue.


Neither do I, but i also don´t consider a closed mind to the unknown as a virtue either.


Peace

edit on 25-6-2011 by Seed76 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 25 2011 @ 03:06 PM
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reply to post by Seed76
 



I have simply answered your question, concerning God´s Judgement to those that never heard of God. And i have answer it as is written in the NT. Namely that you are accountable for your actions to Him, and not to religion. Simple as that. Personal experiences is not something that you or i or anyone have right to make fun of. A personal experience is just that(Personal).


You answered my question; i just disagreed with the answer; disagreement is inevitable, that's part of debate. I never made fun of personal experience; i just stated that they can't be considered a valid argument for the existence of a deity, Especially considering myself and other people are often mistaken regarding their experiences.


It´s good to pull things into question. I am doing it also. But, i am not doing it in order to disprove anything, i am doing it in order to understand.


What do you think i question things for? For a laugh?



No one is forcing you to believe anything. If you want to believe then do so. If not then not. When you choose to believe, you are doing it for your own reasons and not because person x told me to do so.


I wouldn't let anyone force me to believe anything; and i appreciate anyone's right to believe what they want. This however is not a gathering of friends; this is a forum in which people exhange (often differing) opinions and views.


I agree. I think there is also a verse in the Bible which says that no one knows the mind of God, if i am not mistaken.


Indeed; it's a wonder to me how the writers, or even Jesus could claim to understand this deities mind. It really is a wonder to me; Perhaps it would be easier to understand if we accept that God is man made; it would certainly explain all the proliferating cults and schisms that emerge with completely differing ideas on "GOD".



...or to make you think what if it´s true.


I'm more than familiar with Pascal's Wager. It's religious huxsterism.



Please, i really think you'll appreciate the question and answer in this video - It won't take much of your time.



Neither do I, but i also don´t consider a closed mind to the unknown as a virtue either.


Great, i'm glad we agree on something then.



posted on Jun, 25 2011 @ 03:53 PM
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Originally posted by ExistentialNightmare
reply to post by 547000
 


Your will isn't free if you follow the will of a master.

Vicarious redemption is immoral preaching.


That last statement is eloquent and useful.

I hear from many Christians that, whatever they choose to do, they are guaranteed forgiveness. What a self-serving faith-- and those people scare me. But that is a bastardization of Christianity-- it may be the most popular version in my (U.S.) society, but it is still an illegitimate child of religion and materialism.

Redemption cannot be vicarious, but rather participatory. But who wants to participate in self-sacrifice for the greater good of others? Answer: Few.



posted on Jun, 25 2011 @ 04:10 PM
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reply to post by Frira
 
That kind of goes along with something I run in sometimes,
which is this attitude of,
"I believe it, so it must be true because
God would not allow me to believe something that wasn't."


edit on 25-6-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 25 2011 @ 04:51 PM
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reply to post by Frira
 



Redemption cannot be vicarious, but rather participatory. But who wants to participate in self-sacrifice for the greater good of others? Answer: Few.


I agree. Many tribes (gone by) would scapegoat the sins onto an animal and send it off into the wild to absolve the tribe of "sin". Many other tribes performed human sacrifices too (The Mayans as one example)

Christianity is different, in that it asserts that the sacrifice of one human absolves the entire species of their sin. I don't believe we can rid ourselves of responsibility; and i certainly don't believe we are born into "sin" as scripture also asserts.

Peace.



posted on Jun, 25 2011 @ 06:22 PM
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reply to post by ExistentialNightmare
 

When our case comes up for review in the final judgment,
there is a person who could be an advocate for us.
Notice the words could be.
We don't stand in a position where we can compel him to step forward.
He does so as he sees fit, and has a preference for those he knows.
How would he know us?
From all the times we have sought after him in the spirit realm
to search after the ability to be a better person.
The lackadaisical, he will not recognize and will remain
where he was before your name was called.
edit on 25-6-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 25 2011 @ 06:46 PM
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Originally posted by ExistentialNightmare
reply to post by Frira
 



Redemption cannot be vicarious, but rather participatory. But who wants to participate in self-sacrifice for the greater good of others? Answer: Few.


I agree. Many tribes (gone by) would scapegoat the sins onto an animal and send it off into the wild to absolve the tribe of "sin". Many other tribes performed human sacrifices too (The Mayans as one example)

Christianity is different, in that it asserts that the sacrifice of one human absolves the entire species of their sin. I don't believe we can rid ourselves of responsibility; and i certainly don't believe we are born into "sin" as scripture also asserts.

Peace.


Well... Theologically speaking (not that there is much theology going around these days-- just whole lot of self-righteous finger pointing), but "sin" defined as "missing the mark" is rather obviously true. It says nothing more than "no man is perfect." You won't hear that from the Bible-thumpers-- they mean by "sin" anything you do that they don't like is evil and you will burn in Hell for it. But that is what they were taught the word means-- yet it is not the meaning.

Redefining spiritual terms and concepts to fit the spirit of the age is quite popular; and since the spirit of the age is very mean, so is the re-defining.

Honestly, I have answer to the question posed in the OP. The answer is Yes. I can explain; but I have spent decades learning Christianity and more over, learning about God and I certainly do not have all the answers. I dedicated my life to it, not out of some zeal or fervor, but it simply is who and what I am-- I don't know why. No question was more important to me and I went about my search quietly.

The answers I do have, partial as they are, are reasonable, internally consistent, and fit the human experience. I didn't create this faith I believe-- it is old, it is complex, it is hopeful, it is also very painful. I think that last part is the key. Not everyone is able to accept the pain that goes with it-- the terrible personal cost of believing. And my God is a just God, so He does not expect super-human abilities of us. If we cannot accept what is given us, perhaps it is the teacher and not the student who fails? Perhaps it is simply that we are imperfect?

My Lord would never punish a student seeking Him, for a failure-- for being imperfect. But that sort of gentle faith is not how Christianity is portrayed-- not by those who reject it and not even by most Christians. Still, I know what I know, and I am not alone-- most of us just quietly do our best to live it out, knowing each failure will be pointed out by our detractors, and make us all the quieter about our hope. That is where the inhumane pain of it comes in-- not punishment from God for believing, but punishment from the unknowing world, and from an intentional evil and from persons who have no idea that they are even punishing-- the combination of those various sources often overwhelms..

But the faith as portrayed by the vast majority of Christians around me makes no sense. Filled with judgmental statements, vigorous rules, and trite sayings that sound good but are useless in application (e.g., "God always opens a door if Satan closes one.") I would not expect anyone to believe that tripe. But that tripe is not my faith-- that tripe is relatively new.

Along the way, I have something of an answer that works for me and helps others who are searching. That does not mean I am an evangelist. I don't know how to share it in five minutes in a post. But this I can say: If you don't believe the simplistic self-justifying, "empowering" spirit of the age claiming Christ as its own-- I don't blame you because I don't believe that either.



posted on Jun, 25 2011 @ 09:23 PM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical

If you don't want to believe, go ahead. This isn't Islam, we aren't proselytizing with a sword.

True, but go back about 1000 years and see who was proselytizing with a sword. Islam is behind in the game.



posted on Jun, 25 2011 @ 09:24 PM
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Originally posted by ExistentialNightmare



Can anyone explain to me why christianity and the christian god make any sense?


That's the thread title; i'm discussing it; the OP enjoys conversation; and i'm providing opposition to the claim that it makes sense; if you want to refute my points.

This is correct.



posted on Jun, 25 2011 @ 11:31 PM
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Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

If you don't want to believe, go ahead. This isn't Islam, we aren't proselytizing with a sword.

True, but go back about 1000 years and see who was proselytizing with a sword. Islam is behind in the game.


Dude, you won't get an argument from me about the horrors of the Roman Catholic church. My fellow Christians were burned at the stake during that time of history.



posted on Jun, 25 2011 @ 11:34 PM
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reply to post by Frira
 



You won't hear that from the Bible-thumpers-- they mean by "sin" anything you do that they don't like is evil and you will burn in Hell for it.


Absurd straw man.

Can you provide Biblical sources for this rhetoric?



posted on Jun, 25 2011 @ 11:38 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 



When our case comes up for review in the final judgment,


The church/body of Christ doesn't go through the Great White Throne judgment. They go to the "Judgment Seat of Christ" or "Bhema Seat" judgment.

When "Judgment" is used for the world it's Greek work literally means "crisis", when the church's judgment is written it uses a different Greek word "bhema". That's akin to the Olympics when a judge would award 1, 2nd, 3rd et cetra.

Two judgments. Romans 8:1 is still in effect.



posted on Jun, 25 2011 @ 11:41 PM
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reply to post by Frira
 



I hear from many Christians that, whatever they choose to do, they are guaranteed forgiveness. What a self-serving faith-- and those people scare me.



*Sigh*


"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" ~ Romans 6:1-2



posted on Jun, 25 2011 @ 11:43 PM
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Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

If you don't want to believe, go ahead. This isn't Islam, we aren't proselytizing with a sword.

True, but go back about 1000 years and see who was proselytizing with a sword. Islam is behind in the game.


Islam was proselytizing with the Sword a thousand years ago. History is contrary to popular sentiment that the Christian Crusades instigated the violence. The fact is, the Muslims instigated the violence and the Crusades were a response-- good or ill, but a response-- not the instigation.

By the way, when the pagan (not the Jews, not the Christians) indigenous people began persecuting Mohammad and his followers, only one community allowed him and his followers refuge-- a Christian community (in Ethiopia, if I recall). Again, historical fact, but contrary to popular sentiment-- or in that case, simply not known by many except Muslim historians.

It is often heard said that "more people have been killed in the name of God than for any other cause." It is not even close-- even holy wars are usually economic at base. The rulers will claim God, or freedom or whatever will motivate the people. Good cause to suspect economics in the Middle East-- the leadership using Allah and Jihad to motivate the pawns. Let none of us pawn-ify with our rhetoric.

Another example of pawnifying (I like my made-up word!) is that I get upset by non-Christians claiming that Christians are supposed to be pacifists and stoics-- outraged if a Christian uses violence in response to violence. There are no Christian tenants for either pacifism or for stoicism- although some (very few) Christians also adopt those philosophies. They are neither in conflict nor related. In my book, a good Christian is often also a good warrior. Lots of people quote "Turn the other cheek" but almost no one quotes "Let him who has no sword, sell his mantle and buy one." Yet, those quotes are from the same Source.

I seem to have returned to the same theme as before. There are true believing Christians who claim certain beliefs and practices as right which is out of unintended ignorance. There are also Christians in name, who claim Christ to be on their side for no other reason then to intimidate an enemy or excuse their behavior. That those exist does not mean that thoughtful, intelligent, educated, and seriously devout Christians do not also exist.



posted on Jun, 25 2011 @ 11:43 PM
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Originally posted by ExistentialNightmare
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


Perhaps you'd like a formal debate; I've heard that can be arranged on ATS.

I'd appreciate that very much.


Perhaps, let me think about it.

It's late and I have church in the AM, likely I will get to your reply tomorrow night or Monday when I'm off.



posted on Jun, 26 2011 @ 12:02 AM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Frira
 



You won't hear that from the Bible-thumpers-- they mean by "sin" anything you do that they don't like is evil and you will burn in Hell for it.


Absurd straw man.

Can you provide Biblical sources for this rhetoric?


Maybe you do not know the term "Bible Thumpers?" Where I am from, the term is idiomatic for a Christian whose means of proselytizing is to threaten non-believers with damnation. It is not a Biblical reference.

I don't do straw men. You should probably go out and come in again, this is not a good start on your part. I don't don't do "nice" very well either, so the snarkiness was not a good way to lead off.



posted on Jun, 26 2011 @ 12:20 AM
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reply to post by Frira
 





Maybe you do not know the term "Bible Thumpers?" Where I am from, the term is idiomatic for a Christian whose means of proselytizing is to threaten non-believers with damnation. It is not a Biblical reference.


No,. no, no. We aren't going to move the goalposts at halftime. You said "Bible Thumpers" believe this:


hey mean by "sin" anything you do that they don't like is evil and you will burn in Hell for it.


"Sin" has absolutely nothing to do with what we "like" or don't like. That's a "straw man". No Christian teaches this rhetoric nor does the bible. That's why I asked you for a Biblical reference which you've refused to provide.


I don't do straw men.


Okay, I'll grant you that, perhaps your just incredibly ignorant to what Christians actually believe and what the Bible actually says about "sin". Al least now you know your previous idea is tripe.


You should probably go out and come in again, this is not a good start on your part.


I'm fine thanks, if I decide on the need for a P.R. director someday I'll consider your concern.


I don't don't do "nice" very well either, so the snarkiness was not a good way to lead off.


Sweeeet, neither do I!

I believe in ongoing sanctification, I'm certainly not there yet.



posted on Jun, 26 2011 @ 01:15 AM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Frira
 



I hear from many Christians that, whatever they choose to do, they are guaranteed forgiveness. What a self-serving faith-- and those people scare me.



*Sigh*


"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" ~ Romans 6:1-2


PreScript: "If we say that we have no sin, then the truth is not in us." (Not being a straw man, I can do "sword drills" too, but they are not useful here on this thread and will leave you leaking like a sieve.-- so behave, or en garde-- your choice).

Again, I assume you are unfamiliar with the reference in my post-- especially given how the Scriptural quote you gave has no bearing on what I wrote. Related, yes; but germane to the point I was making-- not at all.

The doctrine I referenced was referenced by another a page or two before this. Likewise, and more to the point, televangelists typically make similar statements but without the Baptism requirement. It is useful in the context of the thread, because it serves as a source of misunderstanding of non-Christians of what Christians believe because it comes from a "loud" minority.

That doctrine is new, it is a result of complex post-modern era thoughts on Reformation era speculation. But this is so far off the topic, as your quote and "sigh" removed my own comments from their context-- which WAS on topic.

Please pick yourself up by the little hand and engage me as a mature adult and stop the "Straw man" and "*sigh*" antics. If you don't understand what I am attempting to relate, ask me. If you are unsure if I have made my meaning clear, prompt me. If you disagree, then write out your thoughts and challenge me. But if you continue to presume upon me in the way you have done, then this is not going to be pleasant for you-- and it should not be.

By the way, regarding a prior post I saw, Religious persecution-- even between denominations-- has gone both ways in many parts of the world-- neither local nor denominational perspectives provide the best historical one.
Also the era of the Muslims and the Christians conflict was several centuries before the Protestant Reformation, but your point is taken.

Post Script:
[See? That is a descent attempt at how one engages another with whom we disagree. I could of typed, *sigh* then quoted scripture at you from my thrown on high, and accused you of setting up straw men-- but I am practiced at being an adult (and it isn't easy for me)-- "Come up higher."]

Now, go and sin no more and pray for me, a sinner.



posted on Jun, 26 2011 @ 01:21 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 

Can you provide Biblical sources for this rhetoric?
Frira was talking about modern-day people, not some ancient historical people, so how could there be a Biblical source for something she has personally witnessed? I find this posting of yours concerning. I agree with Frira that you need to take a step back. This is not a good way to make friends.




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