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Can anyone explain to me why christianity and the christian god make any sense?

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posted on Jun, 25 2011 @ 09:19 AM
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reply to post by ExistentialNightmare
 



And that's why it's rediculous..



For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. ~ 1 Corinthians 1:18



We already know you find it foolish.

Anything new to discuss?




posted on Jun, 25 2011 @ 09:20 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


I've got plenty, and i'm happy to share it as per the OP.

Wanna talk about Isaac and Abraham?



posted on Jun, 25 2011 @ 09:27 AM
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Originally posted by ExistentialNightmare
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


I've got plenty, and i'm happy to share it as per the OP.

Wanna talk about Isaac and Abraham?


Been there done that with skeptics. You're going to present an "argument from evil" fallacy.

Let me take a stab at your argument, tell me if I'm wrong:


"God is evil, He told Abraham to sacrifice his own son Issac.."




posted on Jun, 25 2011 @ 09:32 AM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Jun, 25 2011 @ 10:15 AM
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reply to post by ExistentialNightmare
 



And that's why it's rediculous;


And what exactly is ridiculous? His/Her beliefs? How come his/her beliefs are ridiculous and yours not??


Create a man, make him unaware of sin (aboriginal tribes etc.) and then punish him (FOR ETERNITY) for not knowing. And you can babble on about "having it written on yor heart" but it certainly isn't any argument worth considering because it's all metaphysical claims.


Have you ever read Romans 2? It´s an honest question. If you have , then you would know that there is a passage which basically says : Therefore, even Gentiles - people not under the Law of Moses, those who do not know of Christ - have an internal law from God, the natural law written in their hearts, according to which God will judge them.


That's why i think your God is a cruel, malevolent, caprious dictator; that people would be sent to hell, for being honest with their beliefs, pretty merciful?.


If that is your opinion i respect that, but i ought to say that you are wrong here. (See above.)


they are the beliefs of earlier men, and priests who saw the power within religion; for community; for patriotism; and to justify holy wars. I'd rather enjoy the benefit of thinking for myself.


Yes, i agree. "Wolfs in sheep clothes".

Peace



posted on Jun, 25 2011 @ 10:29 AM
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reply to post by Seed76
 



And what exactly is ridiculous? His/Her beliefs? How come his/her beliefs are ridiculous and yours not??


Because i admit i don't know. Make extraordinary claims; expect to be asked to provide extraordinary evidence. Christianity daringly fails to provide even ordinary evidence for it's extraordinary supernatural claims.

Burden of proof isn't on me; and i didn't claim a deity DOESN'T exist; i just would like to see the "working out" from the people or books that claim a deity DOES exist.


Have you ever read Romans 2? It´s an honest question. If you have , then you would know that there is a passage which basically says : Therefore, even Gentiles - people not under the Law of Moses, those who do not know of Christ - have an internal law from God, the natural law written in their hearts, according to which God will judge them.


Which is my argument; human decency precedes religion; it doesn't come from it. But this passage negates original sin; the bible proclaims that we are born into sin; and must be ordered well by piety and faith.

And the Bible also says many other things friend, and they contradict your above passage:-


2 Thessalonians 2:11-12
God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned.



John 12:40
He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.



Leviticus 21:16-23
Handicapped people cannot approach the altar of God. They would "profane" it.



If that is your opinion i respect that, but i ought to say that you are wrong here. (See above.)


Then why preach Hellfire? Why call homosexuality an abomination? Are you acknowledging these apparent contradictions in the bible?

This is what i was talking about regarding Judgement day; Judge Jury and Executioner; there can be no appeal, you can have no lawyers; and you burn for eternity if you're found guilty.

While you may not like this; this is what is written in scripture; and it's how the churched gained the power it has now.


"Wolfs in sheep clothes".


Shepherds in my opinion, but i agree some are savage like wolves.
edit on 25-6-2011 by ExistentialNightmare because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 25 2011 @ 10:39 AM
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reply to post by ExistentialNightmare
 



Burden of proof isn't on me;


Explain to me why any of us needs to meet your burden of proof for our personal faith.

You see to that.



posted on Jun, 25 2011 @ 10:51 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 



Explain to me why any of us needs to meet your burden of proof for our personal faith.


You don't. And again, i'm not protesting people believing what they want to believe providing it doesn't interfere with my childrens education. If people can keep their personal toys at home, or where they wish to meet up. I'd certainly never seek to enforce any law against freedom of expression.
edit on 25-6-2011 by ExistentialNightmare because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 25 2011 @ 10:55 AM
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reply to post by ExistentialNightmare
 


I'd make it a practice them to stop bringing up that we need to meet your burden of proof. If you don't want to believe, go ahead. This isn't Islam, we aren't proselytizing with a sword. Now if someone asks us why we believe and what not, then it's irrelevant if we have met your burden of proof, it's only relevant if we have met our own.



posted on Jun, 25 2011 @ 11:01 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 



Can anyone explain to me why christianity and the christian god make any sense?


That's the thread title; i'm discussing it; the OP enjoys conversation; and i'm providing opposition to the claim that it makes sense; if you want to refute my points. Do so, just stop whining - It doesn't do your arguments any favours.


edit on 25-6-2011 by ExistentialNightmare because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 25 2011 @ 11:06 AM
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reply to post by ExistentialNightmare
 



and i'm providing opposition to the claim that it makes sense



How can you oppose our claim that it makes sense to us?




posted on Jun, 25 2011 @ 11:12 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


LOL what?

The thread is regarding the sense that Christianity makes; i'm not opposing subjectivity here.

Again, we're all free to offer our opinions; if you declare something as absolute, or describe your personal experience; expect people to have criticisms or to have questions regarding your experience (respectively)
edit on 25-6-2011 by ExistentialNightmare because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 25 2011 @ 11:22 AM
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Originally posted by ExistentialNightmare
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


LOL what?

The thread is regarding the sense that Christianity makes; i'm not opposing subjectivity here.

Again, we're all free to offer our opinions; if you declare something as absolute, or describe your personal experience; expect people to have criticisms or to have questions regarding your experience (respectively)


That's all fine and dandy, I'm not saying you can't ask of have your doubt. But don't say dogmatically that 'no burden of proof has been met'..

millions of us would disagree. You can only say your burden has not been met.



posted on Jun, 25 2011 @ 12:34 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 



But don't say dogmatically that 'no burden of proof has been met'..



millions of us would disagree.


....And that's why i'm sharing my opinion and engaging in debate.

Any argument that states the burden of proof has been met has been found wanting; whether it's empirical evidence or logical reasoning. I'd be happy to examine any argument suggesting otherwise. So far it seems no academic (or theologian) can prove such an entity, or the dogma of any specific religion.



posted on Jun, 25 2011 @ 01:38 PM
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reply to post by ExistentialNightmare
 


Uuugh, at this juncture I could make the argument that even the laws of logic and ability to reason are only possible with the Christian/Biblical wordview and that you're standing upon Biblical presuppositions to argue against the God of the Bible.



edit on 25-6-2011 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 25 2011 @ 01:44 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


You could argue that.

Please do.



posted on Jun, 25 2011 @ 01:51 PM
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reply to post by ExistentialNightmare
 



Because i admit i don't know. Make extraordinary claims; expect to be asked to provide extraordinary evidence. Christianity daringly fails to provide even ordinary evidence for it's extraordinary supernatural claims.


We are not talking about science where proof must be provided. The Bible it self is not a Science book. We are talking about beliefs. At our case we are talking about Christianity.


Burden of proof isn't on me; and i didn't claim a deity DOESN'T exist; i just would like to see the "working out" from the people or books that claim a deity DOES exist.

Ever read the story of "Doubting Thomas?". It´s on John 20:24-29.
Think about it for moment. Thomas one of His disciples refused to believe something without direct, physical, personal evidence. Thomas professed his faith in Jesus only after he touched His wounds. In which Jesus replied :

Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen Me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Just read it and make your own mind about it. And certainly i do not try to impose my beliefs to anyone. I never have and never will.


Which is my argument; human decency precedes religion;it doesn't come from it.


Of course does not coming from religion, it´s coming from God. To Him you are accountable for your actions and not to religion.


But this passage negates original sin;


The original sin ended on the cross. Jesus paid for that.


And the Bible also says many other things friend, and they contradict your above passage:-


Lets place some context at the quotes:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-17 refers to "The apostasy and the man of sin."

John 12:36-50 : refers to "Belief and Unbelief".

Do you really fully understand the Book of Leviticus? It´s quite hard to understand it to be honest.


The book is generally considered to consist of two large sections, both of which contain several mitzvot (commandments).
[edit] Priestly Code

See also:
*Vayikra, on Leviticus 1-5: Laws of the sacrifices
*Tzav, on Leviticus 6-8: Sacrifices, ordination of the priests
*Shemini, on Leviticus 9-11: Tabernacle consecrated, alien fire, dietary laws
*Tazria, on Leviticus 12-13: Childbirth, skin disease, clothing
*Metzora, on Leviticus 14-15: Skin disease, infected houses, genital discharges
*Acharei, on Leviticus 16-18: Yom Kippur, centralized offerings, sexual practices
*Bechukotai, on Leviticus 26-27: Blessings and curses, payment of vows

The first part Leviticus 1–16, and Leviticus 27, constitutes the main portion of the Priestly Code, which describes the details of rituals, and of worship, as well as details of ritual cleanliness and uncleanliness. Within this section are:

Laws regarding the regulations for different types of sacrifice (Leviticus 1–7):
Burnt-offerings, meal-offerings, and thank-offerings (Leviticus 1–3)
Sin-offerings (for unintentional sins), and trespass-offerings (Leviticus 4–5)
Priestly duties and rights concerning the offering of sacrifices (Leviticus 6–7)
The practical application of the sacrificial laws, within a narrative of the consecration of Aaron and his sons (Leviticus 8–10)
Aaron's first offering for himself and the people (Leviticus 8-9)
The incident in which "strange fire" is brought to the Tabernacle by Aaron's sons Nadav and Avihu, leading to their death directly at the hands of God for doing so (Leviticus 10)
Laws concerning purity and impurity (Leviticus 11–16)
Laws about clean and unclean animals (Leviticus 11)
Laws concerning ritual cleanliness after childbirth (Leviticus 12)
Laws concerning tzaraath of people, and of clothes and houses, often translated as leprosy, and mildew, respectively (Leviticus 13–14)
Laws concerning bodily discharges (such as blood, pus, semen, etc.) and purification (Leviticus 15)
Laws regarding a day of national atonement, Yom Kippur (Leviticus 16)
Laws concerning the commutation of vows (Leviticus 27)

[edit] Holiness Code

See also:
*Acharei, on Leviticus 16-18: Yom Kippur, centralized offerings, sexual practices
*Kedoshim, on Leviticus 19-20: Holiness, penalties for transgressions
*Emor, on Leviticus 21-24: Rules for priests, holy days, Lights and bread, a blasphemer
*Behar, on Leviticus 25-25: Sabbatical year, debt servitude limited
*Bechukotai, on Leviticus 26-27: Blessings and curses, payment of vows

The second part, Leviticus 17–26, is known as the Holiness Code, and places particular, and noticeable, emphasis on holiness, and the holy; it contains commandments intended not just for the priests but for the whole congregation.[3] It is notably more than a miscellany of laws. Within this section are:

Laws concerning idolatry, the slaughter of animals, dead animals, and the consumption of blood (Leviticus 17)
Laws concerning sexual conduct—incest, bestiality, same-sex relationships among men (although this has been disputed), laws concerning sorcery, and Moloch (Leviticus 18, and also Leviticus 20, in which penalties are given)
Laws concerning molten gods, peace-offerings, scraps of the harvest, fraud, the deaf, blind, elderly, and poor, poisoning the well, hate, sex with slaves, self harm, shaving, tattoos, prostitution, sabbaths, sorcery, familiars, strangers, and just weights and measure (Leviticus 19)
Laws concerning priests/the Sons of Aaron and their conduct, and possible prohibiting factors of being a priest such as prohibitions against the disabled, the permanently ill (anyone who: suffers from dwarfism, has poor eyesight, is hunchbacked, has damaged testicles, has a flat nose, etc.), and the superfluously blemished. Similar requirements are issued for animals that are to be sacrificed. (Leviticus 21–22)
Laws concerning the observation of the annual feasts, and the sabbath, (Leviticus 23)
Laws concerning the altar of incense (Leviticus 24:1–9)
The case law lesson of a blasphemer being stoned to death, and other applications of the death penalty (Leviticus 24:10–23), including anyone having "a familiar ghost or spirit", a child insulting its parents (Leviticus 20), and a special case penalty for prostitution (Leviticus 21)
Laws concerning the Sabbath, Jubilee years and slavery. (Leviticus 25).
A hortatory conclusion to the section, giving promises regarding obedience to these commandments, and warnings and threats for those that might disobey them, including sending wild animals to devour their children. (Leviticus 26:22)

These ordinances, in the book, are said to have been delivered in the space of a month, specifically the first month of the second year after the exodus. A major Chiastic structure runs through practically all of this book.[4]


Source

No these quotes does not contradict the above passage of mine as you said. Contradictions happened when quotes taken out of context. Sure, there maybe some difficult parts in the Bible, but not contradictions.


the bible proclaims that we are born into sin; and must be ordered well by piety and faith.


Here is a quick source for you my friend. Are we born sinners? which concludes :

One final point. God defines sin for us. It is not something inherited, nor does He define it as something we are born with. Lord, what is sin? God answers: "Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness." (1 John 3:4). Sin is not something we are born with; it is something we do. When we break God's law, we sin. The good news is that the gospel of Christ is the power of God to take away our sins.




Then why preach Hellfire?


The lake of fire is for the Judgment day.


Why call homosexuality an abomination?


Because homosexuality is a sin, the same as is theft etc. All sin is abomination. But do not worry, God’s forgiveness is just as available to a homosexual as it is to an adulterer, idol worshipper, murderer, thief, etc.



Are you acknowledging these apparent contradictions in the bible?


I would not say contradictions. I would say that in the bible there are passages that are very difficult to understand.


This is what i was talking about regarding Judgement day; Judge Jury and Executioner; there can be no appeal, you can have no lawyers; and you burn for eternity if you're found guilty.


On judgement day we will be judged by God, those who know Him and those who do not know Him. And He will judge us according our deeds. If you are good you going up if you bad you going down. Simple as that.


Shepherds in my opinion, but i agree some are savage like wolves.


There is only one Shepherd and that is Jesus.

Peace



posted on Jun, 25 2011 @ 01:51 PM
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reply to post by ExistentialNightmare
 


I'll do so when I retrn home, on a cell phone from work atm.



posted on Jun, 25 2011 @ 01:57 PM
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reply to post by Seed76
 



Of course does not coming from religion, it´s coming from God


We're going in circles; this has been my point all along; You CLAIM it's coming from God yet you have exactly the same information as i do regarding the unknown. (unless you play the experience card)

The bible makes extraordinary claims; which i pull into question; why should i believe them? For what reasons? They claim God exists but they had less information than we do about the universe when they made the claim.

Again, Christianity (as well as many other religions) make extrordinary claims for which they do not even provide ordinary evidence for.

It's one thing to claim a deity exists (Deism) it's an entirely different claim to say you understand the deities mind (THEISM) Again....extraordinary claims.

Of course they wrote about "doubters" in the bible; because they knew their extraordinary claims could not be verified, and thus inevitably disbelieved.

I don't see any other reason other than faith to believe such claims. And i don't consider (blind) faith a virtue
edit on 25-6-2011 by ExistentialNightmare because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 25 2011 @ 02:04 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


Perhaps you'd like a formal debate; I've heard that can be arranged on ATS.

I'd appreciate that very much.



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