The United States was not founded in Christianity? I beg to differ.

reply to post by Lemon.Fresh


Well whatever it was FOUNDED on, it sure aint that anymore.

Originally posted by projectvxn
reply to post by spiritualzombie

 

It matters for the purposes of the T & C. Which you should read.

This is an academic discussion worth having. If you don't care for it stop posting in this thread or start your own.

edit on 21-6-2011 by projectvxn because: (no reason given)

I am engaging in the discussion. Why don't you try responding to the points I've made rather than attempt to disregard them entirely.

Originally posted by guitarplayer
Patrick Henry
Samuel Adams
John Jay
Martha Washington
Charles Carrol
Elias Boudinot
John Q. Adams

And Christian Deists?
George Washington
Abigail Adams
Alexander Hamilton
John Hancock

non-Christian Deists:
Thomas Jefferson
James Madison
James Monroe
John Adams
Benjamin Franklin
Thomas Paine

I am only talking about the Predominant Founding Fathers. If you want to bring a larger list into it - - that is your choice.

I also expanded on what I originally posted after I read more then 10 sites on the subject.

Oh - and George Washington was definitely Deist. You have to read more then one site.

Of course they were Christians. And by Christians I mean a bunch of bigots and hypocrites. everyone should have life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, - everyone but slaves, women, American Indians and anyone that threaten their business or political interests. It's okay to not like the founding fathers. Hell, they didn't like each other. They were a bunch of men with many different views, religions and ideas. Some good, and some not so good. I don't have anything against them because I understand they were flawed humans, but we have to stop worshiping them like demigods.

reply to post by Lemon.Fresh


The United States was not founded in Christianity? I beg to differ.

Originally posted by zerotime
I don't have anything against them because I understand they were flawed humans, but we have to stop worshiping them like demigods.

But people love their propaganda !

No fair...

...does this mean we also have to give up the seemingly-arbitrary, nationalistic admiration of flags, wars, and the military? But the TV told me to like this stuff because I'm "patriotic"! How am I supposed to be a "Good American" if I don't adhere to this propaganda!

Originally posted by TheOrangeBrood
reply to post by projectvxn

 

You haven't posted a single peer-reviewed source; just paraphrasing from church-affiliated sites to support an obvious agenda.

None of these sites were even constructed by professional web designers.

Bunch of non-reputable bunk, as far as I am concerned...

...And I'll ask it again...

...Where is this even going? Anywhere?

....You think churches should dictate federal legislation?

I don't understand.

Original quotations are bunk now? And when did I advocate the church dictating Federal law? Have i made any allusions to that?

Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh
This post will probably incite a flame war.

But I wish to show you the TRUTH, that is if you can deny ignorance.

It is a common thought now-a-days that the United States was not founded in Christianity. I do not know when this idea became mainstream, but it is absolutely false. I will show you why.


God is the sovereign authority:

God is the sovereign authority. Not government. Not man. I can hear the appeals already. "God is not mentioned in the Constitution," they will say.

In the beginning God created mankind in His own image, placed man on the Land, gave man dominion, agency and possession. Dominion, Agency and Possession are the three elements that define Sovereignty. What God created no man has the capacity to remove. Your sovereign nature simply exists; there is nothing you can do about it. When you enter into a contract your sovereignty is not bound; quite the contrary, it is your sovereignty that binds the contract. It is your sovereign will that gives you the capacity to contract. Without sovereignty you could not enter into a valid contract. This Republic was designed, not to govern the people but to provide for a central body of government that could exercise the ability of our nation: to coin money, to regulate international and interstate traffic of goods and services, to better provide for a common defense of our nation from foreign encroachment and to secure the ability of the people to govern themselves and to protect their private land and property.

In this nation, other than God, there is no power greater than the will of the people. The sovereign people are supposed to be constitutionally secured to their right to pursue life, liberty, happiness and property to their heart's content.

So why is God not mentioned in the Constitution. Because it was understood at the time, and they did not think that the country would deny God. The Constitution was built around issues that people had with Britain. These issues were layed out in the Declaration of Independence. In that document, it says “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights . . ."

While the Declaration is not strictly what our country was founded on, it is evident in the Bill of Rights, that the Declaration was drawn on heavily. the opening of the preamble says "We the people." Where do "we the people" get authority to set up a government? From God, as stated in the Declaration.

Nation of Laws:

The Unites States was set up as a nation of laws, not a nation of men. This means that the same laws apply to everyone. Because you hold a high position does not mean that you are exempt from following the law. This is shown to be God's law as well.

Col. 3:25 - "But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons."

It is also mentioned in other places, but I expect you will do your due diligence.

Man is Sinful:

Rom 3:23 - "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"

Our founding fathers stated that all men are inherently evil. To help combat this, they imposed checks and balances in the Constitution.

Three Branches of Government:

Isaiah 33:22 - "For God is our judge (judicial), God is our lawgiver (Legislative), God is our king (executive); he will save us."

It is said that James Madison was inspired by this verse. I have not found quotes, but I have not found evidence to the contrary either.

Freedom of Religion:

But Lemon, isn't freedom of religion contrary to Christian dogma? NEGATIVE! In Matthew 19:16-23, the rich young ruler comes to Jesus. After a brief conversation, the young man “went away sorrowful,” choosing not to follow Christ. The salient point here is that Jesus let him go. God does not “force” belief in Him. Faith is commanded but never coerced. In Matthew 23:37, Jesus expresses His desire to gather the children of Jerusalem to Himself, but they “were not willing.” If God gives men the freedom to choose or to reject Him, then so should we.

Republic Form of Government:

Deut 1:13 - "Choose some wise, understanding and respected men from each of your tribes, and I will set them over you.”

2 Kings 14:21 - "Then all the people of Judah took Azariah, who was sixteen years old, and made him king in place of his father Amaziah."

One of the influential books at the time of the American Revolution was a book called The Defense of Liberty Against Tyrants by Junius Brutus, who defended the republican form of civil government from the Bible. He pointed out that, although God sometimes directed His prophets to anoint His choice for the next king, no king of Israel took power until all the people of Israel, or least their representatives, elected him as king (2 Sam. 16:18): David (2 Sam. 2:4, 5:1-3); Solomon (2 Chron. 29:22-23); Rehoboam (1 Kings 12:1); Jeroboam (1 Kings 12:20); Omri (1 Kings 16:16-21); Jehoiada (2 Kings 11:12, 17, 19); Azariah (2 Kings 14:21; Uzziah (2 Chronicles 26:1); ); Jehoahaz (2 Kings 23:30). Thomas Paine, despite his later writings where he denounced the the Bible, defended the republican form of government from the Old Testament in his famous book promoting revolution against England, Common Sense.


I hope that I have helped you learn something today. Though God is not mentioned specifically in the Constitution, there is no denying that the founders had Him in mind when writing one of the world's greatest documents.

edit on 6/21/2011 by Lemon.Fresh because: (no reason given)

Learn this ,

United States of America = Originally Indian Land

Christian soldiers slaughterd thousands of Indian people preaching to them the love of Jesus.

One of the reasons that the word 'god' was not included in the constitution was because there was a sort of hip philosophy going around then, that jehovah was not an omnipotent god because he promised that the arc of the covenant would not pass from the face of the earth. And it has disappeared, therefore, jehovah could not qualify as 'mr. omnipotent.
Meanwhile, christainity was strong in the hearts of most Whites because christainity was used to kill indians.
The original Thanksgiving was a massacre of the Paquin Indians in 1636. It wasn't changed to the b.s. thanksgiving story we use now for at least 100 years.
In my opinion, one of the greatest spiritual errors in the history of the earth, is where Whiteness became synominous with christainity.
My opinion is that this error started in europe, before the crusades when (yes) the moors, or blackamoors, mostly of african black blood, took whites as slaves, long before whites took blacks as slaves.
And all that whites had at the time was christainity. Its all they had to fight back with.
The moors were defeated at the battle of hastings in 1066. (I think).
The crusades pretty much started then.
The holy spirit is actually gold.
This error, of the gold holy spirit being replaced by the white, linked to the racial White, was still heavily in place when America was invented.
It even exists today, in isolated places.
Even though the articles of the confederation were taken, almost directly, from the Iroquis articles of confederation, those same Iroquis were still considered heathens, not worthy of human being rights.
Many Whites to this day use white as a substitute for the holy spirit (for those of you who can see with the spiritual eye.)
Indians were considered heathens, even if they were born again christains.
We indians were all marched to church up into the middle of the 1950s. Even though we were legal american citizens, we were not allowed freedom of religion, nor freedom from religion.
If you refused to go to christian church as a part of your american education, you would be expelled from school.
If you watch those 'Here comes the Calvary' movies up until the middle of the 1950s, you'll see that indians were still considered america's biggest enemy, even worse than muslims are considered now.
It took the civil rights legislations in the 1960s to break down some of those attitudes.

The Treaty of Tripoli. Authored by American diplomat Joel Barlow in 1796, the following treaty was sent to the floor of the Senate, June 7, 1797, where it was read aloud in its entirety and unanimously approved. John Adams, having seen the treaty, signed it and proudly proclaimed it to the Nation.


Article 11

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

reply to post by Lemon.Fresh


While I have no doubt that the founding documents of this country were influenced by the bible. They were also influenced by the Iroquois constitution as I stated earlier in this thread.

But to quote the founding fathers statements. Whether in speeches, or whether in writing, proves little about their internal beliefs.

Hitler had much to say about his faith as a christian. "For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people...." Adolf Hitler. So from his own mouth, he was a christian. So then Nazism was founded on christianity?

The founding fathers were no different than politicians today, imo. They gave lip service to christianity when they deemed it was necessary.

"But kneeling beneath the cross I heard Gods spirit beckoning me. I submitted myself to his will and I dedicated myself to discovering His truth and carrying out His works." Barack Obama.

"Prayer is an opportunity to praise God for His mighty works, His gift of freedom, His mercy, and His boundless love." George W. Bush

"Blessed are the people whose leaders can look destiny in the eye without flinching but also without attempting to play God." Henry Kissinger.

So all of these men are christians? Or at the very least their statements point to as much. I think Capone had a good handle on it.

"They (elites) are quite good at hypocrisy and blissfully shameless about it, too. Practice makes perfect, after all…" Al Capone

reply to post by Lemon.Fresh


Nope, this country was founded by Deists. Try reading history instead of a book with borrowed stories from Greek Mythology.

Yes, the constitution was based upon Christianity - but they realized that YOU HAD TO SEPARATE RELIGION AND STATE.

They got the hell out of Europe because of the mess religion / state made....and many of the founding fathers hated organized religion.

reply to post by MidnightTide


No, they didn't "hate" organized religion. They hated what the king of England turned religion into.

The text of the 1st amendment is as follows:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

"Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion" was to prohibit government from establishing a state sponsored church that would compel the people to believe in a certain way favorable, of course, to the government. It also prohibited the government from interfering with free exercise of religion. That doesn't sound like "hatred" for religious belief.

reply to post by brianmg5


Try reading the whole thread. That has been debunked many times over.

reply to post by MidnightTide


Exactly


reply to post by acoffeelover


Not relevant to the thread

reply to post by zerotime


Ad hominem. It does not negate the OP of the thread.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


I agree!

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by guitarplayer
Patrick Henry
Samuel Adams
John Jay
Martha Washington
Charles Carrol
Elias Boudinot
John Q. Adams

And Christian Deists?
George Washington
Abigail Adams
Alexander Hamilton
John Hancock

non-Christian Deists:
Thomas Jefferson
James Madison
James Monroe
John Adams
Benjamin Franklin
Thomas Paine

I am only talking about the Predominant Founding Fathers. If you want to bring a larger list into it - - that is your choice. . . .

What?

Patrick Henry
Samuel Adams
John Jay
Martha Washington
Charles Carrol
Elias Boudinot
John Q. Adams
George Washington
Abigail Adams
Alexander Hamilton
John Hancock

So . . .none of those were considered predominant founding fathers?

Jeebus. You are really reaching now. First a philosophy did not exist until recently (and you refused to even read the evidence), and now founding fathers were not really founding fathers.

Brilliant!

reply to post by Scytherius


The lives, quotes, and Bible prove you wrong.

And the truth ALWAYS matters.

reply to post by Slawth


the only reason people make this crap up is because the average american doesnt know anything about anything
someone could be having a conversation and say''and yeah america wasnt even founded on christianity''
and then some influential dumb blonde would reply ''really,?are you kidding me right now?''
yeah this happens everyday i mean has anyone seen Jay Leno's jay-walk?nuff said

reply to post by Lemon.Fresh


Regardless of what form the "religion" of Jesus took....

His philosophy IS 100% FLAWLESS!

Did the church add "fear" and "guilt"? yep. As a Christian (or gnostic), HIS suggestions hold solid.

I say "suggestions" due to the fact that no one has to do it. It just makes things better.

A Buddhist, Hindu, Native American, pagan, ANYONE, will have to admit that the philosophy he brought are just very basic good rules. (Is this a run on sentence? )

Our government was based on these things because they are UNIVERSAL. Go against the Universe, and it will not go well for that person.

Treat others as you would be treated. That's pretty easy.

Patrick Henry
Samuel Adams
John Jay
Martha Washington
Charles Carrol
Elias Boudinot
John Q. Adams
George Washington
Abigail Adams
Alexander Hamilton
John Hancock

So . . .none of those were considered predominant founding fathers?

Martha Washington???