The United States was not founded in Christianity? I beg to differ.

reply to post by Annee


It doesn't matter what third parties say. It matter what the founders themselves said. It is important to make the distinction that although the founders, many of whom were most definitely Christian, established a separation of government from church. Their experience with the King of England and how the monarchy manipulated the church was the premise behind the 1st amendment. It was meant to protect faith from the undue influence of government. Not the other way around.

reply to post by Annee


Read the quotes by the founders then. Or the letters between the founders on their Christian faith.

Here let me help you(From that Christian site that actually uses original sources):

John Adams

On April 18, 1775, a British soldier ordered him, John Hancock, and others to “disperse in the name of George the Sovereign King of England. Adams responded to him: “We recognize no sovereign but God, and no king but Jesus!”

In an October 13, 1789 address to the military, he said: "We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." In a letter to Thomas Jefferson dated June 28, 1813, he said "The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity"

Sam Adams:

He was also a steadfast Christian. In “The Rights of the Colonists,” which he wrote in 1772, he said: “The right to freedom being the gift of the Almighty...The rights of the colonists as Christians...may be best understood by reading and carefully studying the institutions of The Great Law Giver and Head of the Christian Church, which are to be found clearly written and promulgated in the New Testament.”

Charles Carroll:

As a Catholic, he was opposed to support of the Anglican Church and wrote his views in a series of articles in the Maryland Gazette. In a letter to John McHenry on November 4, 1800, Carroll wrote: “Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime & pure, [and] which denounces against the wicked eternal misery, and [which] insured to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments.”

And there are many more. You see, this is what happens when you don't read the sources and documents from the period.

Also founded on slavery... and a lack of voting rights for women... I guess it's time to grow up.

Originally posted by starwarsisreal
the founding fathers are deists. They believe that God Exists but only he turns a blind eye toward our world,

The battle between good and evil is ours to win or lose.

It is "our world" as you said, it is ours to destroy, or ours to save.

God is not blind.

You know, the entire Christian thing falls apart on the idea of a "jealous god", "no other gods before me".

First off, jealousy is always, always, always a sign of neurotic insecurity.

Second, the Christian "god" has explicitly acknowledged the existence of and intolerance for other competing "gods".

When I was in second or third grade in Catholic school I was forbidden to ask any more questions until high school because I "upset the other students". One of my questions was an attempt to understand and reconcile the Judas story. I couldn't square a benevolent, omniscient, forgiving "God" who had a plan with the crazy guy who turned on the most crucial player in the Christ mythology.

Without Judas, there would be no Christ on the cross, dying for our sins, etc. If you accept that "God" has a plan and knows evrything, then "God's" plan included forcing Judas into his role as betrayer. That Judas was forced to do something is evident by his behavior after the fact, when he realized he got used. After fulfilling the demanding duty/role of betraying his best friend, instead of gratitude and reward for doing a difficult duty to create a new religion, "God" goes psycho on him and punishes him for eternity for a difficult job well-done.

And don't even try to reconcile "all-forgiving", "loving", with the concept of "original sin": another psychotic idea. "God" sets up humanity to fail, knows they will, then uses their "failure" to justify tormenting humanity forever, just so HE can "save" them.

Sounds like a psychopathic abuser to me.

Christianity (and its cousin Islam) are both psychopathic belief systems designed to allow and justify the most horrendous behavior imaginable.

In a sense, though, given the actual behavior of the US of A historically, you may be right.

reply to post by Annee


Now if those quotes aren't acceptable to you, this site, Wall Builders(whose founders are Christian) hosts an enormous archive of original documents and transcripts from the period. www.wallbuilders.com...

God is this, God is that, My God, Your God, Smurfy Smurf....

This is ridiculous... It's fake people. It was made up. Sorry.

I'm sorry your natural connection to the universe and your ability to be humble and loving has been made dependent on such silliness. Maybe it's your fault... or your parents... but it's a whole lot of silliness. Let it go. Grow up.

Be loving, be humble, drop the divisive control schemes.

reply to post by spiritualzombie


How about you address the topic.

Originally posted by projectvxn
reply to post by Annee

 

It doesn't matter what third parties say. It matter what the founders themselves said. It is important to make the distinction that although the founders, many of whom were most definitely Christian, established a separation of government from church. Their experience with the King of England and how the monarchy manipulated the church was the premise behind the 1st amendment. It was meant to protect faith from the undue influence of government. Not the other way around.

I have read at least 10 different sites since the beginning of this thread. I tried to find non-affiliated sites from both perspectives.

People went to churches - by location. They went to church to socialize with neighbors. Yes - Christianity was the dominant religion. But - just because you went to church - - did not mean you fully accepted the belief.

The Prominent Founding Fathers - were mostly Deists. Did they discuss both the good and bad of Christianity? Absolutely! Which is why you will find what seems like conflicting quotes. Being Deists they accepted from Christianity that which fit their philosophy and very adamantly rejected the rest.

I am fully aware of the reason.

reply to post by Annee


That doesn't jive with the quotations of many of the founders in letters, documents, and speeches from the time.

Originally posted by starwarsisreal
the founding fathers are deists. They believe that God Exists but only he turns a blind eye toward our world,

I'm sick of seeing people complain because God isnt involved in your lives or this planet...we wouldnt be "free" if we had a big bad god come save us everytime we got in trouble

Originally posted by projectvxn
reply to post by Annee

 

That doesn't jive with the quotations of many of the founders in letters, documents, and speeches from the time.

Yes it does. They did not follow doctrine - but were independent thinkers/philosophers - - under a Deist umbrella.

Thinkers/Philosophers discuss. They were fully honest in their assessment of Christianity - - from all sides of it.

reply to post by Annee


Of course they were. But that doesn't make them deists.

Most of them were, in fact, church going, Christ loving devout followers of the bible. There's no denying that. Why try to make them something they aren't? Have you read any of their quotations on their faith expressed to be wholly Christian? Or do you just hang on to this notion that they rejected Christianity and don't want it challenged?

Just read these quotes:

They were bible quoters and all
www.wallbuilders.com...

reply to post by Lemon.Fresh


Oh god not another one of you. No ... it was NOT founded on Christianity. It was founded on economics. It was founded on being taxed without say so. A few left England for Religious freedom but that was a DISTINCT minority. Almost every single FF made that abundantly clear. Religion was looked upon with great suspicion.

www.neondemon.com...

AMERICA was NOT founded upon Christianity. And what's even better, it was meaningless even if it was. (And it wasn't).

reply to post by projectvxn


The topic... whether the United States was founded on Christianity doesn't even really matter... go with whatever answer makes you feel better... the point is, like women's rights, and slavery... it's time to expand our focus and that means letting go of Christianity as a foundation. It's too divisive for the nation of equality that we say we are.

reply to post by spiritualzombie


It matters for the purposes of the T & C. Which you should read.

This is an academic discussion worth having. If you don't care for it stop posting in this thread or start your own.

Originally posted by spiritualzombie
reply to post by projectvxn

 

The topic... whether the United States was founded on Christianity doesn't even really matter... go with whatever answer makes you feel better... the point is, like women's rights, and slavery... it's time to expand our focus and that means letting go of Christianity as a foundation. It's too divisive for the nation of equality that we say we are.

I agree with projectvxn.

What you are bringing up is a different subject discussion.

reply to post by projectvxn


You haven't posted a single peer-reviewed source; just paraphrasing from church-affiliated sites to support an obvious agenda.

None of these sites were even constructed by professional web designers.

Bunch of non-reputable bunk, as far as I am concerned...

...And I'll ask it again...

...Where is this even going? Anywhere?

....You think churches should dictate federal legislation?

I don't understand.

Originally posted by projectvxn
reply to post by Annee

 

Of course they were. But that doesn't make them deists.

Most of them were, in fact, church going,

I know they were church going. That's what I said - - and that is what most sites I read said.

But - that did not make them Christian. Church was a social event and mostly local.

Most identified themselves as Deist - - but you can also tell by their writings.

I myself would be Deist - - except I believe Science - Energy/Matter created consciousness - - not the other way around.

Deist is a philosophy not bound by doctrine - - that will bring into it belief it accepts/agrees with - - no matter where it comes from. Accepting certain Christian philosophies does not make one a Christian.

Originally posted by Annee
Our Founding Fathers on Christianity - - The Faith of our Founding Fathers By Dean Worbis

Anyone who tells you that the Founding Fathers were trying to create a Christian nation is either a liar or parroting what other liars told him. This is what they really had to say about Christianity.


The Bible? Here is what our Founding Fathers wrote about Bible-based
Christianity

Thomas Jefferson
"I have examined all the known superstitions of the world and I do not find
in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They
are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men,
women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been
burnt, tortured, fined, and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this
coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to
support roguery and error all over the earth."

Here's Thomas Paine
"I would not dare to so dishonor my Creator God by attaching His name to
that book (the Bible)."

"Among the most detesable villains in history, you could not find one worse
than Moses. Here is an order, attributed to 'God' to butcher the boys, to
massacre the mothers, and to debauch and rape the daughters. I would not
dare so dishonor my Creator's name by (attaching) it to this filthy book
(the Bible)."

"It is the duty of every true Diest to vindicate the moral justice of God
against the evils of the Bible."

Finally let's hear from James Madison
"What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on
civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of
political tyrrany. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of
the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty
have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government,
instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy."

www.ecis.com...

Why did you only present part of what the book stated and that was

Orthodox Christians? Here is just a small list: Presenting part of a list of only diest is being deceptive.
Patrick Henry
Samuel Adams
John Jay
Martha Washington
Charles Carrol
Elias Boudinot
John Q. Adams

And Christian Deists?
George Washington
Abigail Adams
Alexander Hamilton
John Hancock

non-Christian Deists:
Thomas Jefferson
James Madison
James Monroe
John Adams
Benjamin Franklin
Thomas Paine