The United States was not founded in Christianity? I beg to differ.

I really don't know what difference it makes if it was founded on Christianity or not. It hasn't acted very Christlike in the past and is certainly not acting Christlike today.

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."
-- Mahatma Gandhi

reply to post by Lemon.Fresh


you seem to be confused...

but then again.. your not alone..

Originally posted by MrXYZ
reply to post by Lemon.Fresh

 

All you have to do is read the constitution to realize your claim is complete and utter nonsense

I have many times. I have proven you wrong in the OP.

Congress shall make NO law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Thomas Jefferson made an interpretation of the 1st Amendment to his January 1st, 1802 letter to the Committee of the Danbury Baptist Association calling it a "wall of separation between church and State."

Perhaps you should do more research into that letter and find out what it is talking about.

The Danbury Baptists wrote, "… religion is at all times and places a matter between God and individuals—that no man ought to suffer in name, person, or effects on account of his religious opinions—that the legitimate power of civil government extends no further than to punish the man who works ill to his neighbors …"

Jefferson responded, "I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state."

Separation of Church and State came from the idea of the Americans wanting to avoid a state religion like the Anglican Church in Great Britain, not as a secular rejection of God.

Madison had also written that "Strongly guarded. . . is the separation between religion and government in the Constitution of the United States." So yeah, your claims are complete and utter nonsense...

There are numerous other public religious activities by the founding fathers that could be cited, and Madison participated and encouraged many of them. Yet Madison later privately renounced his own practices, distancing himself from his own beliefs and practices as well as those of the other founders. To use Madison's "Detached Memoranda" as authoritative is an abuse of historical records, choosing a long unknown ex post facto document in preference to those concurrent with the framing and implementation of the First Amendment.

On the plus side, it's a free country and you can continue believing in whatever fairytale you like

In other words, you actually have no argument.

It's been fun!

reply to post by jessejamesxx


Not founded on, but founded in. Big difference.

And as I said, I could pull at least twice the amount of quotes from all the founding fathers proving my point. I chose not to because that has been done ad nauseum. If someone wants to get into a quote war, have at it.

Originally posted by miniatus
Our country was founded by Christians.. and there's a lot of Christian speak in the original documents.. however there's a clear and concerted point to separate church and state.. They were well aware of the issues that would cause.

If you want to say our country was founded by Christians, you are pretty much correct.. if you want to say it was founded on Christianity then I would say you're incorrect.. The founding father's were quite clear that they wanted freedom of, or freedom from religion.. You can even say our country was founded on Christian morals and I would say that could even be largely correct.

edit on 21-6-2011 by miniatus because: (no reason given)

lol Again, read the title of the thread. I am stating that it was founded IN Christianity. not ON Christianity. There is a difference.

The 1st Amendment is to stop things like the Church of England from happening.

reply to post by Annee



And what great men and philosophers did the founding fathers quote and try to emulate?

Perhaps you should research the percentage of quotes of the founding fathers.

Out of 15,000 quotes, 34% were from the Bible; other main sources were Locke, Montesquieu, Blackstone, etc. who themselves took 60% of their quotes from the Bible.

But hey . . . why let facts get in the way.

Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh
i.e. The First Amendment prohibits government from establishing a state religion and protects each person's right to practice (or not practice) any faith without government interference.

"You shall have no other gods before me"

Sorry. Amendment One fails the "U.S. was founded on christianity" claim.

Since we're on the 10 commandments, you might explain why there is no crime designated for not honoring your parents or the sabbath, coveting your neighbor's stuff or even making graven images. We won't even get into the other 603 commandments which remain uncodified by our nation's law.

So you basically refuted nothing.

Houston, traditionaldrummer has comprehension problems.

I've easily refuted your claim and you've sputtered away from my simple challenge each time it's been presented.

There is and remains no christianity in any of our founding documents

reply to post by fordrew

I regret to inform you LDragonFire that none of those people, pictures, symbols, or places are masonic. Except for Washington. Georgie was depicted as Zeus in that statue (his hand placement, robes ,etc are not masonic). The capstone and the eye is not a masonic symbol, only the eye alone is a symbol. BUT that is already another discussion in another thread.

o really?

THE U.S. CAPITOL CEREMONIES IN 1793. The cornerstone of the U.S. Capitol was laid in 1793, between the publication of the first edition of Preston in 1772 in London and the first edition of Webb in 1797 in Albany. Preston’s Ilustrosions of Masonry was certainly available to the Masons who planned the Capitol cornerstone laying. More familiar to the planners would have been John K. Read’s New; Ahiman Rezon published in Richmond in 1791 , two years before the Capitol event. Read’s book was published for the guidance of Virginia Lodges and dedicated to “George Washington, Esq. President of the United States of America,” but there were no instructions for cornerstone layings. There is circumstantial evidence that the procedures used by George Washington were more like those of Webb than Preston. The newspaper account of the day specifically mentions that corn, wine, and oil were placed on the cornerstone after it was set in place. Also, Alexandria-Washington Lodge #22 have a wooden triangle and T-square from the 1793 ceremonies, which must have been used to symbolically try the stone.

So Masons built it but it has no Masonic symbolism?






"Freemasonry is not Christianity, nor a substitute for it. It does not meddle with sectarian creeds or doctrines, but teaches fundamental religious truth." (Albert G. Mackey, "Encyclopedia of Freemasonry," page 162)

"My own mind is my own church." - Thomas Paine

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
No. I'm sorry, but a Christian deist is impossible.

Thank you. I read that and went "WHAT?!!!!!

I mean, Jefferson did have his own edit of the New Testament that was essentially a compilation of the moral teachings.

I'm sure - - as I am sure he was well read on the great historical philosophers.

America is founded upon Enlightenment principles.

Agreed. Sure you can pull stuff from Jesus teachings - - - but its hardly exclusive.

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
No. I'm sorry, but a Christian deist is impossible.

Thank you. I read that and went "WHAT?!!!!!

Educate yourself

So after reading through some of these replies a few questions comes to mind.

Say you're correct in your assumption that this country was founded upon christianity.

What then? Are you dissatisfied with the way things are currently? How would you change them in the name of your god?

Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
No. I'm sorry, but a Christian deist is impossible.

Thank you. I read that and went "WHAT?!!!!!

Educate yourself

Hey! Anyone can create and idea on an already existing idea.

But NO! True Deism can not be Christian Deism. I don't care how many website links you post.

the US was also founded on slavery, excluding women's right to vote, and burning witches at the stake

I don't think I'd be making a case for putting christianity in that club, but hey that's just me

Moral Principles.

My "label" for Moral Principles is better then your "label" for Moral Principles.

Like - - Moral Principles started when Christianity began? Huh?

That's just plain ridiculous.

Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh

Originally posted by miniatus
Our country was founded by Christians.. and there's a lot of Christian speak in the original documents.. however there's a clear and concerted point to separate church and state.. They were well aware of the issues that would cause.

If you want to say our country was founded by Christians, you are pretty much correct.. if you want to say it was founded on Christianity then I would say you're incorrect.. The founding father's were quite clear that they wanted freedom of, or freedom from religion.. You can even say our country was founded on Christian morals and I would say that could even be largely correct.

edit on 21-6-2011 by miniatus because: (no reason given)

lol Again, read the title of the thread. I am stating that it was founded IN Christianity. not ON Christianity. There is a difference.

The 1st Amendment is to stop things like the Church of England from happening.

The 1st Amendment is quite clear, short and simple .. it says nothing about the church of England.. you're reading into it what you wish to and adding things it simply doesn't say.. the separation of church and state is quite clear ... Religion was important to them and there is no doubt about that, but they were intelligent men that understood that policy, law and religion do not mix well .. You want it to be something it's not..

The constitution is quite verbose when it needs to be.. you're insinuating they wrote this timeless document and just assumed we'd get their insinuations and avoid saying what they meant? They surely understood the importance of saying what they meant.. I'm not sure they were stupid, are you suggesting they were?

reply to post by Lemon.Fresh



I am also curious as to what your point is? while I believe you're entirely wrong in what you're suggesting and seem to be injecting your own beliefs, especially in the 1st amendment.. what if you were right? what would that mean? you want everyone to adopt Christianity now? we now are an official Christian country? so what of our populous of Muslims or any other religion? ( or non religion ) have they suddenly lost their right of religious freedom? What would you do to them? Are you going to suggest that I as a non-religious person now have to pray to your God?

You're way off base if you think our founders intended for any of that to happen.. any of it... so, then what?

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh
i.e. The First Amendment prohibits government from establishing a state religion and protects each person's right to practice (or not practice) any faith without government interference.

"You shall have no other gods before me"

Sorry. Amendment One fails the "U.S. was founded on christianity" claim.

Since we're on the 10 commandments, you might explain why there is no crime designated for not honoring your parents or the sabbath, coveting your neighbor's stuff or even making graven images. We won't even get into the other 603 commandments which remain uncodified by our nation's law.

On Christianity != In Christianity. Learn the difference.

The Constitution is relating to the government. The 10 Commandments is relating to personal ideas.

Christianity gives you free will (Deut 30:15-18; Josh 24:15; Jn 15:6-7; 3:16, Acts 6:10; 7:51-55, Jn 3:16, Lk 6:46 )

So you basically refuted nothing.


. . .

I've easily refuted your claim and you've sputtered away from my simple challenge each time it's been presented.

There is and remains no christianity in any of our founding documents

I have not sputtered in the least. I have given factual evidence and supporting evidence. I am not the one who has to rely on sarcasm and insults. But I will reciprocate as much.

reply to post by reeferman


yes, really. Freemasons have been laying cornerstones ceremonially for anyone who asks throughout it's history. A member on the secret societies forums in one post informed that a cornerstone ceremony was requested by a commercial owner who is absolutely not related to Freemasonry, in his town. It is a public event. Common? I am sure it is somewhat.

the first few presidents being masons in office, it was symbolic more than anything. Symbolic in how the cornerstone is the foundation of every building. But is that symbolism really exclusive to freemasonry? In my opinion, not really...

You are not proving the exclusivity of Christianity influence.

Its just another "labeled" belief in the whole of Enlightenment.

Originally posted by syrinx high priest
the US was also founded on slavery, excluding women's right to vote, and burning witches at the stake

I don't think I'd be making a case for putting christianity in that club, but hey that's just me

The failures of men does nothing to discredit what I have put forth.

The founders were not perfect by any means. It does not mean that they did no look to the Bible and Christianity in founding the United States.