The United States was not founded in Christianity? I beg to differ.

reply to post by LDragonFire


I regret to inform you LDragonFire that none of those people, pictures, symbols, or places are masonic. Except for Washington. Georgie was depicted as Zeus in that statue (his hand placement, robes ,etc are not masonic). The capstone and the eye is not a masonic symbol, only the eye alone is a symbol. BUT that is already another discussion in another thread.

Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
The OP is the epitome of scraping the bottom of the barrel to make an incorrect statement somehow true.

Feel free to show me ANY christianity in the Constitution or even the Declaration of Independence

I already did. See OP.

No, actually you gave us a bunch of bible verses then admitted that god was nowhere in the Constitution.

Now, show us all directly where we can find the christianity in any of our founding documents.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh

show me the christianity in our founding documents, not the christianity in the quotes from the founding fathers.

I think the OP may have just twisted things possibly...

Just because I write something that resembles verses in the bible by semantics, does not mean that what I wrote was influenced from those verses, as well as using examples in the bible that parallel the main components such as the 3 branches which most likely had more influence from history and Rome then the bible alone. Also, I think masonic beliefs flow quite closely to some parts of the bible when mentioning God.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh

By the way, there are many times more quotes showing that they were Christian Deists (not Deists as it is known today.).

So now you're weaving Christianity into Deism? Christian Deism is modern, not the other way around.

False.

--Christian Deism, in the philosophy of religion, is a standpoint that branches from Deism. It refers to a deist who believes in the moral teachings — but not divinity — of Jesus. Corbett and Corbett (1999) cite John Adams and Thomas Jefferson as exemplars.[ The earliest-found usage of the term in print in English is in 1737, appearing about ten times by 1800.

It is influenced by Christianity, as well as both main forms of deism: classical and modern. In 1698 English writer Matthew Tindal (1653-1733) published a pamphlet "The Liberty of the Press" as a “Christian” Deist.[citation needed] He believed that the state should control the Church in matters of public communication.

It adopts the ethics and non-mystical teachings of Jesus, while denying that Jesus was a deity. Scholars of the founding fathers of the United States "have tended to place the founders' religion into one of three categories — non-Christian Deism, Christian Deism, and orthodox Christianity. "John Locke and John Tillotson, especially, inspired Christian Deism, through their respective writings. Ironically, possibly the most famed practitioner of this practice was Thomas Jefferson, who famously praised "nature's God" in the "Declaration of Independence" (1776) and edited the "Jefferson Bible" -- a Bible with all reference to revelations and other miraculous interventions from a deity cut out.

In an 1803 letter to Joseph Priestley, Jefferson states that he conceived the idea of writing his view of the "Christian System" in a conversation with Dr. Benjamin Rush during 1798–99. He proposes beginning with a review of the morals of the ancient philosophers, moving on to the "deism and ethics of the Jews," and concluding with the "principles of a pure deism" taught by Jesus, "omitting the question of his deity."

Christian Deists see no paradox in adopting the values and ideals espoused by Jesus without believing he was God. Without providing examples or citations, one author maintains, "A number of influential seventeenth- and eighteenth-century thinkers claimed for themselves the title of 'Christian deist' because they accepted both the Christian religion based on revelation and a deistic religion based on natural reason. This deistic religion was consistent with Christianity but independent of any revealed authority. Christian deists often accepted revelation because it could be made to accord with natural or rational religion."David Hume wrote, "As far as I know, Lord Herbert, 'the father of English deism', never used the name. The few authentic statements of ... The term 'Christian deism' was first used, as far as I know, by M. Tindal in Christianity as Old as the Creation. Link--

No. The claim is that America was "founded in christianity" or "founded as a christian nation". The personal religious beliefs of the founding fathers have nothing to do whatsoever with whether such a claim is true.

Oh really? Then why do so many fall back on the Deist claim? Notice I mentioned almost nothing of the founding fathers quotes? I did it for a reason.

Show me the christianity in our founding documents, not the christianity in the quotes from the founding fathers.

I already did. See OP.

So OP, what you're saying is that the U.S. wasn't founded as a christian nation, but was founded using some of the principles of christianity? If that is what you're saying, were there principles of other religions also used to found the U.S. along with christianity?

Many of the founders were Masons, who embrace anyone into their secret group as long as they believe in a god who created everything, from my understanding. So, maybe those who weren't christian, but were of some other deistic belief system also incorporated their beliefs into the ideals of the foundation of the U.S.?

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer


No, actually you gave us a bunch of bible verses

How ironic that those verse support the Constitution, and the Constitution supports those verses. Must be merely a coincidence.

then admitted that god was nowhere in the Constitution.

No, I showed how God was in the Constitution through We the people. Please learn critical analysis, instead skim reading.

Now, show us all directly where we can find the christianity in any of our founding documents.

Already did. See OP.

I know it is redundant. But just because you choose to be ignorant does not mean that I have not given proof.

Originally posted by Annee
Our Founding Fathers on Christianity - - The Faith of our Founding Fathers By Dean Worbis

Anyone who tells you that the Founding Fathers were trying to create a Christian nation is either a liar or parroting what other liars told him. This is what they really had to say about Christianity.


The Bible? Here is what our Founding Fathers wrote about Bible-based
Christianity

Thomas Jefferson
"I have examined all the known superstitions of the world and I do not find
in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They
are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men,
women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been
burnt, tortured, fined, and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this
coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to
support roguery and error all over the earth."

Here's Thomas Paine
"I would not dare to so dishonor my Creator God by attaching His name to
that book (the Bible)."

"Among the most detesable villains in history, you could not find one worse
than Moses. Here is an order, attributed to 'God' to butcher the boys, to
massacre the mothers, and to debauch and rape the daughters. I would not
dare so dishonor my Creator's name by (attaching) it to this filthy book
(the Bible)."

"It is the duty of every true Diest to vindicate the moral justice of God
against the evils of the Bible."

Finally let's hear from James Madison
"What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on
civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of
political tyrrany. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of
the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty
have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government,
instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy."

www.ecis.com...

This is enough to prove to me that the nation wasn't founded on christianity. Maybe there were some ideas based on it (the bible, not christianity specifically).. but I don't see how the OP equates to being founded on it.

reply to post by Lemon.Fresh


Thankfully for us, we evolved out of the mostly puritan way of life.

You can scream your heads off about God this and that and its all good sure, but we are still about 100 yrs behind Europe socially.


Full Steam Ahead

Originally posted by Lysergic

...but we are still about 100 yrs behind Europe socially.

How did you come to that conclusion? What about Canada, how far behind are they? Mexico? Australia? Japan? Again, how do you figure that?

Originally posted by Hydroman
So OP, what you're saying is that the U.S. wasn't founded as a christian nation, but was founded using some of the principles of christianity?

Exactly

If that is what you're saying, were there principles of other religions also used to found the U.S. along with christianity?

I have not looked into that yet, as a major majority of the founding fathers were Christian in one form or another.

Many of the founders were Masons, who embrace anyone into their secret group as long as they believe in a god who created everything, from my understanding.

That is my understannding of Freemasonry as well.

Here are the numbers as they are known:

Declaration of Independence: 56 signers - 9 Masons (3 more possibly were).
Constitution: 39 signers - 13 Masons

So, maybe those who weren't christian, but were of some other deistic belief system also incorporated their beliefs into the ideals of the foundation of the U.S.?

It is possible, but considering that a major majority of the founders were Christians in one form or another, I do not see it as likely.

I will look into that, though.

reply to post by Lemon.Fresh


All you have to do is read the constitution to realize your claim is complete and utter nonsense

Congress shall make NO law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Thomas Jefferson made an interpretation of the 1st Amendment to his January 1st, 1802 letter to the Committee of the Danbury Baptist Association calling it a "wall of separation between church and State." Madison had also written that "Strongly guarded. . . is the separation between religion and government in the Constitution of the United States." So yeah, your claims are complete and utter nonsense...

On the plus side, it's a free country and you can continue believing in whatever fairytale you like

Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh
How ironic that those verse support the Constitution, and the Constitution supports those verses. Must be merely a coincidence.

How ironic that no christianity appears in any of the documents, yet you claim there is because you found some obscure analogy in bible verses. .

No, I showed how God was in the Constitution through We the people. Please learn critical analysis, instead skim reading.

No, you actually said that. Go reread what you wrote.

Already did. See OP.

I know it is redundant. But just because you choose to be ignorant does not mean that I have not given proof.

edit on 6/21/2011 by Lemon.Fresh because: (no reason given)

Well, you didn't . You claimed that because you found some analogies in bible verses that it must be the case. I'll ask again. Show us directly where we can find the christianity in our founding documents.

Commandment One: You shall worship no other gods but me.
Amendment One: You shall worship whatever god you wish.

Houston, Lemon.Fresh has a problem.....

Originally posted by starwarsisreal
the founding fathers are deists. They believe that God Exists but only he turns a blind eye toward our world,

No ... some of the founding fathers were deists, most were not. Whenever this topic comes up, those who say that the founding fathers are deists have a very narrow and limited definition of who was and who wasnt instrumental in founding America.

If we were to look at the those who signed the Constitution

Charles Carroll Catholic

Samuel Huntington Congregationalist

Roger Sherman Congregationalist

William Williams Congregationalist

Oliver Wolcott Congregationalist

Lyman Hall Congregationalist

Samuel Adams Congregationalist

John Hancock Congregationalist

Josiah Bartlett Congregationalist

William Whipple Congregationalist

William Ellery Congregationalist

John Adams Congregationalist; Unitarian

Robert Treat Paine Congregationalist; Unitarian

George Walton Episcopalian

John Penn Episcopalian

George Ross Episcopalian

Thomas Heyward Jr. Episcopalian

Thomas Lynch Jr. Episcopalian

Arthur Middleton Episcopalian

Edward Rutledge Episcopalian

Francis Lightfoot Lee Episcopalian

Richard Henry Lee Episcopalian

George Read Episcopalian

Caesar Rodney Episcopalian

Samuel Chase Episcopalian

William Paca Episcopalian

Thomas Stone Episcopalian

Elbridge Gerry Episcopalian

Francis Hopkinson Episcopalian

Francis Lewis Episcopalian

Lewis Morris Episcopalian

William Hooper Episcopalian

Robert Morris Episcopalian

John Morton Episcopalian

Stephen Hopkins Episcopalian

Carter Braxton Episcopalian

Benjamin Harrison Episcopalian

Thomas Nelson Jr. Episcopalian

George Wythe Episcopalian

Thomas Jefferson Episcopalian (Deist)

Benjamin Franklin Episcopalian (Deist)

Button Gwinnett Episcopalian; Congregationalist

James Wilson Episcopalian; Presbyterian

Joseph Hewes Quaker, Episcopalian

George Clymer Quaker, Episcopalian

Thomas McKean Presbyterian

Matthew Thornton Presbyterian

Abraham Clark Presbyterian

John Hart Presbyterian

Richard Stockton Presbyterian

John Witherspoon Presbyterian

William Floyd Presbyterian

Philip Livingston Presbyterian

James Smith Presbyterian

George Taylor Presbyterian

Benjamin Rush Presbyterian

Our country was founded by Christians.. and there's a lot of Christian speak in the original documents.. however there's a clear and concerted point to separate church and state.. They were well aware of the issues that would cause.

If you want to say our country was founded by Christians, you are pretty much correct.. if you want to say it was founded on Christianity then I would say you're incorrect.. The founding father's were quite clear that they wanted freedom of, or freedom from religion.. You can even say our country was founded on Christian morals and I would say that could even be largely correct.

I think that, like most things, the truth lies somewhere in between...

some of the founding fathers were true believers in Christ as the savior... some were deists... some went to church because in those days it was a social occasion...some were masons and members of other occult based fraternities...

the values which the OP claims as Christian run through most religions and fraternal groups...

but regardless the point is that the country was founded on religious freedom not Christianity... it was influenced by Christian values cause that was the faith which they were most familiar with... but it could have as easily been pulled from the quran as the bible...

all in all it was a concept which was based on mostly good men's vision of how the world should work...

they had their differences, but realised that this is what made them strong, thus they embraced and penned a document which gave freedom to white male landowners as long as they respected certain rights that belonged to all other white men...

Here are the 10 commandments of Solon. Solon the Athenian. Solon was born, we believe, around 638 B.C.E.

1. Trust good character more than promises.
2. Do not speak falsely.
3. Do good things.
4. Do not be hasty in making friends, but do not abandon them once made.
5. Learn to obey before you command.
6. When giving advice, do not recommend what is most pleasing, but what is most useful.
7. Make reason your supreme commander.
8. Do not associate with people who do bad things.
9. Honor the gods.
10. Have regard for your parents.

Unlike the Commandments of Moses, none of these is outdated or antithetical to modern moral or political thought. Every one could be taken up by anyone today, of any creed--except perhaps only one. And indeed, there is something much more profound in these commandments. They are far more useful as precepts for living one's life. Can society, can government, prevail and prosper if we fail to uphold the First Commandment of Moses? By our own written declaration of religious liberty for all, we have staked our entire national destiny on the belief that we not only can get by without it, but we ought to abolish it entirely. Yet what if we were to fail to uphold Solon's first commandment? The danger to society would be clear--indeed, doesn't this commandment speak to the heart of what makes or breaks a democratic society? Isn't it absolutely fundamental that we not trust the promises of politicians and flatterers, but elect our leaders and choose our friends instead by taking the trouble to evaluate the goodness of their character? This, then, can truly be said to be an ideal that is fundamental to modern moral and political thought.

www.freerepublic.com...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There were many great philosophers and leaders before what you claim in Jesus and Christianity.

Yet - - you want to tie all of this type thinking in a neat little bow and give Jesus full credit.

I'd be pretty sure in saying - - the great men that founded America's constitution - - - were well read in the philosophies of other great historical men.

The founders of the American constitution - - had many - many sources of principled historical figures to assist them in their own beliefs and philosophies. Some of Jesus teaching may be part of it - - - but certainly not the only source - - or even the most influential.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
Commandment One: You shall worship no other gods but me.
Amendment One: You shall worship whatever god you wish.

Houston, Lemon.Fresh has a problem.....

Actually the 1st Amendment says

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."


i.e. The First Amendment prohibits government from establishing a state religion and protects each person's right to practice (or not practice) any faith without government interference.

This is because Christianity is a deeply personal thing and must be based on your own choices. Not that of others.

Free will. This is shown throughout the New Testament, and I gave examples in my OP.

So you basically refuted nothing.

Houston, traditionaldrummer has comprehension problems.

Originally posted by SirMike

Originally posted by starwarsisreal
the founding fathers are deists. They believe that God Exists but only he turns a blind eye toward our world,

No ... some of the founding fathers were deists, most were not. Whenever this topic comes up, those who say that the founding fathers are deists have a very narrow and limited definition of who was and who wasnt instrumental in founding America.

If we were to look at the those who signed the Constitution

Can you narrow that down to only those involved in writing the constitution?

From past memory - - it seems to me the constitution had at least 3 drafts. And The Creator - - was added to the third and final draft. I could be wrong on this - - its been a long time since I was fully into this.

reply to post by Lemon.Fresh

Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

Beg to differ? Well, you're wrong then.

Prove it.

I did.

Knowing your posts, the exact opposite is contained in your posts.

Ahh, so you are judging a book by its cover, instead of doing your due diligence.


...no, I'm judging an individual based on prior actions. Not at all comparable to judging a book by its cover. I'm judging a book by the previous works of the author.

This idea became mainstream around 1776 and then faded out due to revivalism that spread throughout the US periodically. Many of the founders were deists, one may have been an atheist (Franklin).

That is highly misleading.

...even though it's true?

First of all, I have already proven the fact that the the idea WAS NOT mainstream at the time of the writing of the Constitution. A simple look into history would show you that.

No, it wouldn't. Unless you believe the same moron who thinks that the founders put to rest evolution decades before Darwin published "On the Origin". And you didn't prove anything and it is not a fact.

Secondly, is the charge of Deists. Much how Christianity has changed, so has Deism. Strictly speaking, Eighteenth-century deists of the believed that God did not intervene in the lives of his human creation. He did not perform miracles, answer prayer, or sustain the world by his providence. True religion, according to the deist, was based on reason rather than divine revelation.

...which is modern deism as well.

Today, Deism is seen as similar to atheist and agnostic. That is why people like Annee can't seem to get their heads around Christian Deism, which is wht the founding fathers were.

No. I'm sorry, but a Christian deist is impossible. Why? Look at how you defined deism. Did not perform miracles, answer prayer, sustain the world, or ever intervene. That sort of deity doesn't flood a planet, send its son/send itself as its son to the Earth, or any of that other nonsense.

I mean, Jefferson did have his own edit of the New Testament that was essentially a compilation of the moral teachings.

Thirdly, you claim that "many" were deists.

The FACTS beg to differ.

Huh, deist isn't even mentioned there...I guess that was a compilation of public affiliation. I do like that John Adams isn't mentioned at all. Nor is Thomas Paine, the intellectual center of the discussion.

I'd also point out that "many" is a relative, nonspecific term. I was referring to the general independence movement, not just to the list that is found here.

I'd like to point out another things: I couldn't give to fornications what their religion was, it doesn't have to do with whether or not the nation was founded by Christians, it has to do with what is was founded on.

America is founded upon Enlightenment principles. The biggest influence on the Enlightenment is probably John Locke.

I'm sorry, but which God do you mean? That's my objection. There is no objective evidence of this deity.
Also, were a deity mentioned, how would you make it the theistic deity as opposed to the deistic deity?

Perhaps you should do some more readings of the founding fathers to see what God they meant exactly?

I am sorry I will not do ALL the research for you.

I know what deity they meant, the one that is a parlance for referring to 'nature' or a natural deity, in the tradition of the Enlightenment (you know, the thing that influenced the founding of America a thousand times more than the Bible.)

None of that ever happened, please bone up on the last 150 years of science.

The Constitution was written 235 years ago. Science of the last 150 years has nothing to with it. Nice straw man though. Too bad I see through it.

Last I checked, that science does have a bit to do with it. The founders didn't create an unchanging nation and we should clearly eschew any beliefs they had which were founded in pure ignorance. Also, it's not a straw man. How is it a straw man? How am I misrepresenting your beliefs? You're so ignorant that you're misusing the labeling of the most easily recognizable logical fallacy!

Eh, fornicate it. You aren't here to talk, your post is ramblingly long, and it contains Bible quotes. You don't quote a single instance of anything in the early history of the USA, yet you quote the Bible. That's just idiotic.

Because any simple google search can bring you to founding fathers quotes and writings supporting their views, which also support the OP. I decided to prove it from the opposite end.

...and I can provide a thousand more which make your position look as idiotic as it actually is. I just happened to go for the knock out punch, let's see how you responded to it.

Ahh I was waiting for that. Only took two pages.

Perhaps you should study up on you language skills.

The treaty is stating that Christianity is not the state religion of the United States, and therefore has no problems with dealing with Muslims/

...wow, you're telling an actual English teacher to bone up on language skills?

Diagram out the sentences for me. Show me how that at all implies that. The treaty states quite clearly that the nation was not founded in Christianity, it has nothing to do with state religion.

At the time, The Muslim Barbary Powers (Tunis, Morocco, Algiers, and Tripoli) were warring against what they claimed to be the "Christian" nations (England, France, Spain, Denmark, and the United States (notice . . . state religion of the first 4?).

Well, considering that the USA was one of the few nations that didn't have a state religion at the time...
Of course, that's a red herring of great size. The sentence says that America was not founded upon the Christian religion (it was founded upon Enlightenment principles).

Please learn how to research a bit more. I expect more out of ATS.

So do I, but you clearly haven't provided. Granted, you're probably a fan of that same guy who claimed that Darwin was settled by the founders before the ratification of the Constitution.

I wonder, what are your opinions on Darwin...I'd say negative, but I'd risk actually constructing an actual straw man.