Help ATS with a contribution via PayPal:
learn more

The United States was not founded in Christianity? I beg to differ.

page: 3
29
<< 1  2    4  5  6 >>

log in

join

posted on Jun, 21 2011 @ 12:26 PM
link   

Originally posted by ToneDeaf

Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh
God is the sovereign authority. Not government.

Try and tell that to them (govt.) and see how far you get;
Next time the government comes to collect your taxes
tell them just how you feel,
in that they are not the sovereign authority (Lol)
As for God creating democracy, legislating abortion and
gay marriages, well that's a new one.


They already know this, as it is part of the founding documents. They choose to ignore it.

You are also missing a key component. God>we the people>government. God created people who created government. People have free will, and God has a right to alter as He sees fit. Government has free will, but the people have the right to alter it is they see fit.




posted on Jun, 21 2011 @ 12:29 PM
link   

Originally posted by DJW001

. . .

At best, you have made the case that some of the founders believed in some sort of deity.Your claim, however, is that the nation was founded on Christianity. The distinguishing characteristic of Christianity is not belief in a creator, but in a savior. Please indicate which part of the Constitution mandates the acceptance of Jesus Christ in order to achieve salvation. Haven't you ever wondered why the Declaration of Independence didn't begin: In Congress, July 4th, in the year of Our Lord, 1776?


Strictly speaking, being a Christian means to be Christ-like. It has nothing to do with saviorship. It has everything to do with living a moral, just, and free life under moral laws, aka, nature's law.



posted on Jun, 21 2011 @ 12:32 PM
link   

Originally posted by Kryties

Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh

Freedom of Religion:

But Lemon, isn't freedom of religion contrary to Christian dogma? NEGATIVE! In Matthew 19:16-23, the rich young ruler comes to Jesus. After a brief conversation, the young man “went away sorrowful,” choosing not to follow Christ. The salient point here is that Jesus let him go. God does not “force” belief in Him. Faith is commanded but never coerced. In Matthew 23:37, Jesus expresses His desire to gather the children of Jerusalem to Himself, but they “were not willing.” If God gives men the freedom to choose or to reject Him, then so should we.



Pity that isn't practiced in real life.

As far as I'm concerned the whole premise of the U.S. was 'Freedom'. By stating that the U.S. was founded as a Christian nation you are contradicting this premise no matter what religious rhetoric or mumbo-jumbo you come up with to explain it away.


It is practiced by some, myself included.

But where does freedom ultimately come from?


I am not stating that that it was founded as a Christian nation. I am saying that it was based on Biblical Christian beliefs (and not right wing Christianity, which is what we have today.)



posted on Jun, 21 2011 @ 12:34 PM
link   

Originally posted by totalmetal
reply to post by Lemon.Fresh
 



Look guy if you want to cherry pick lines from the old testament and grant them authority then maybe you should just give the entire old testament authority so we can go back to stoning people for adultery and for disobeying their parents.


It is not I who used them. Perhaps you should do more research into the founding fathers, Blackstone, Locke, and Montesquieu



posted on Jun, 21 2011 @ 12:35 PM
link   
The OP is the epitome of scraping the bottom of the barrel to make an incorrect statement somehow true.

Feel free to show me ANY christianity in the Constitution or even the Declaration of Independence



posted on Jun, 21 2011 @ 12:37 PM
link   

Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh

I am not stating that that it was founded as a Christian nation. I am saying that it was based on Biblical Christian beliefs (and not right wing Christianity, which is what we have today.)


The documents which form our nation have more Masonic principles in them than anything else, and all such document are completely bereft of christian beliefs.



posted on Jun, 21 2011 @ 12:59 PM
link   
@Annee


The Bible? Here is what our Founding Fathers wrote about Bible-based Christianity


You obviously are the one parroting copy rhetoric of unnamed sites. Contrarily to popular belief, Thomas Jefferson was a devout Christian with solid faith-based principalities:




Moreover, his "Notes on Religion," nine documents Jefferson wrote in 1776, are "very orthodox statements about the inspiration of Scripture and Jesus as the Christ," according to Mark Beliles, a Providence Foundation scholar and author of an enlightening essay on Jefferson's religious life... Jefferson's outlook on religion and government is more fully revealed in another 1802 letter in which he wrote that he did not want his administration to be a "government without religion," but one that would "strengthen … religious freedom."


www.wnd.com...

If you want to truly understand Thomas Jefferson's view on Christianity and Religion, I'd suggest reading: "The Real Thomas Jefferson" (his bibliography) and not parroting some formatting absent website from 1985.

Do not negate true fact.
www.amazon.com... 0062


Also @traditionaldrummer:
Read the Declaration of Independence as the OP quoted. It mentions a Creator (God, if you are unfamiliar with Creationism)



posted on Jun, 21 2011 @ 01:00 PM
link   
George Washington
"While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian."
--The Writings of Washington, pp. 342-343.

John Adams
"Suppose a nation in some distant Region should take the Bible for their only law Book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God ... What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be."
--Diary and Autobiography of John Adams, Vol. III, p. 9.

"The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God."
--Adams wrote this on June 28, 1813, in a letter to Thomas Jefferson.

James Madison
"Cursed be all that learning that is contrary to the cross of Christ."
--America's Providential History, p. 93.

Alexander Hamilton
"I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as clearly as any proposition ever submitted to the mind of man."
--Famous American Statesmen, p. 126.

Patrick Henry
"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here."
--The Trumpet Voice of Freedom: Patrick Henry of Virginia, p. iii.

Now these are just a few quotes to defend that the Founding Fathers weren't opposed to Christianity. Also, I would like to ask you to not attack a man for using a website that was biased to his point of view for I have seen others also using websites biased to their views to support their own claims. Be kind and considerate.
I don't mean to support the claim that the United States was founded upon Christianity but that they weren't opposed to it as some others may claim. They were influenced by it but didn't directly found the country upon so that one wouldn't be inclined to a particular position and have a loss of choice or freedom.

Please respect each others' points of view. May God bless you.



posted on Jun, 21 2011 @ 01:02 PM
link   
reply to post by Lemon.Fresh
 


Thomas Paine the Englishman who was the Inspiration for the American War Of Independence was no Christian. Here are some of his quotes regarding religion:-


atheism.about.com...



posted on Jun, 21 2011 @ 01:03 PM
link   

Originally posted by JeshurunAndronicus
I don't mean to support the claim that the United States was founded upon Christianity but that they weren't opposed to it as some others may claim.


Depends on who you choose and which quotes to mine.

Read Paine's Age Of Reason and tell me he wasn't opposed to it. Or Jefferson and Adams' private letters discussing it. It'll give you greater understanding than just mining for quotes.



posted on Jun, 21 2011 @ 01:03 PM
link   

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

Beg to differ? Well, you're wrong then.


Prove it.




Knowing your posts, the exact opposite is contained in your posts.


Ahh, so you are judging a book by its cover, instead of doing your due diligence.





This idea became mainstream around 1776 and then faded out due to revivalism that spread throughout the US periodically. Many of the founders were deists, one may have been an atheist (Franklin).


That is highly misleading.

First of all, I have already proven the fact that the the idea WAS NOT mainstream at the time of the writing of the Constitution. A simple look into history would show you that.

Secondly, is the charge of Deists. Much how Christianity has changed, so has Deism. Strictly speaking, Eighteenth-century deists of the believed that God did not intervene in the lives of his human creation. He did not perform miracles, answer prayer, or sustain the world by his providence. True religion, according to the deist, was based on reason rather than divine revelation. Today, Deism is seen as similar to atheist and agnostic. That is why people like Annee can't seem to get their heads around Christian Deism, which is wht the founding fathers were.

Thirdly, you claim that "many" were deists.

The FACTS beg to differ.




I'm sorry, but which God do you mean? That's my objection. There is no objective evidence of this deity.
Also, were a deity mentioned, how would you make it the theistic deity as opposed to the deistic deity?


Perhaps you should do some more readings of the founding fathers to see what God they meant exactly?

I am sorry I will not do ALL the research for you.

Deny ignorance, and stuff.




None of that ever happened, please bone up on the last 150 years of science.


The Constitution was written 235 years ago. Science of the last 150 years has nothing to with it. Nice straw man though. Too bad I see through it.



Eh, fornicate it. You aren't here to talk, your post is ramblingly long, and it contains Bible quotes. You don't quote a single instance of anything in the early history of the USA, yet you quote the Bible. That's just idiotic.


Because any simple google search can bring you to founding fathers quotes and writings supporting their views, which also support the OP. I decided to prove it from the opposite end.


Here's my entire counter-argument against you:
America is not a Christian nation. It's explicitly stated within US law; in a treaty written in 1796


As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen,—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.


I think people in 1796 had a pretty damn good idea on how the nation was founded. Since I have a matter of approved legislation which actively declares that the USA was no founded on Christianity less than ten years after the ratification of the Constitution....I win. You lose.


Ahh I was waiting for that. Only took two pages.

Perhaps you should study up on you language skills.

The treaty is stating that Christianity is not the state religion of the United States, and therefore has no problems with dealing with Muslims/

At the time, The Muslim Barbary Powers (Tunis, Morocco, Algiers, and Tripoli) were warring against what they claimed to be the "Christian" nations (England, France, Spain, Denmark, and the United States (notice . . . state religion of the first 4?).

Please learn how to research a bit more. I expect more out of ATS.



posted on Jun, 21 2011 @ 01:05 PM
link   

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
The OP is the epitome of scraping the bottom of the barrel to make an incorrect statement somehow true.

Feel free to show me ANY christianity in the Constitution or even the Declaration of Independence


I already did. See OP.



posted on Jun, 21 2011 @ 01:05 PM
link   
Not to nit pik but what does the old testament have to do with Christianity?

Btw George Washington refused to take communion and refused to kneel in church.



posted on Jun, 21 2011 @ 01:11 PM
link   

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by JeshurunAndronicus
I don't mean to support the claim that the United States was founded upon Christianity but that they weren't opposed to it as some others may claim.


Depends on who you choose and which quotes to mine.

Read Paine's Age Of Reason and tell me he wasn't opposed to it. Or Jefferson and Adams' private letters discussing it. It'll give you greater understanding than just mining for quotes.



Mining for quotes go both ways, which is why I chose to take it from the opposite end.

By the way, there are many times more quotes showing that they were Christian Deists (not Deists as it is known today.).

Somehow, all of you are seeing the word Christian, and expecting the founding fathers to be hard right fundamentalists with fire and brimstone flying from their lips every time they open them.



posted on Jun, 21 2011 @ 01:15 PM
link   

Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh
You quoted the article, which implies that that is what you believe. Perhaps you should be more careful and say what you mean and mean what you say. :shrug:




The author of the book means what it says.

edit on 21-6-2011 by Annee because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 21 2011 @ 01:19 PM
link   

Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh

By the way, there are many times more quotes showing that they were Christian Deists (not Deists as it is known today.).


So now you're weaving Christianity into Deism? Christian Deism is modern, not the other way around.


Somehow, all of you are seeing the word Christian, and expecting the founding fathers to be hard right fundamentalists with fire and brimstone flying from their lips every time they open them.


No. The claim is that America was "founded in christianity" or "founded as a christian nation". The personal religious beliefs of the founding fathers have nothing to do whatsoever with whether such a claim is true.

Show me the christianity in our founding documents, not the christianity in the quotes from the founding fathers.



posted on Jun, 21 2011 @ 01:20 PM
link   

Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh

Originally posted by totalmetal
reply to post by Lemon.Fresh
 



Look guy if you want to cherry pick lines from the old testament and grant them authority then maybe you should just give the entire old testament authority so we can go back to stoning people for adultery and for disobeying their parents.


It is not I who used them. Perhaps you should do more research into the founding fathers, Blackstone, Locke, and Montesquieu


I don't give a damn about the founding fatheres, they're dead slave owners and racists, we are talking about today here and the lines you used in your post.



posted on Jun, 21 2011 @ 01:23 PM
link   
I have seen Thomas Paine, that he is utterly opposed to Christianity, but Jefferson wasn't. Jefferson seemed inclined to Christianity as Jesus taught and not as the the priests interpreted though he also seemed not too concerned with the miracles of Him, i.e. the Jefferson Bible.

I think we would all do well trying to decipher the Founding Fathers' beliefs but also realize that we cannot completely understand them because we aren't them and not thrust what we think upon others. I agree that the Founding Fathers didn't hold the Christian Faith completely but they weren't ignorant of its teachings and its worth.

May God bless you all, kind sirs.



posted on Jun, 21 2011 @ 01:29 PM
link   
Reply to post by LDragonFire
 


Today's. Christianity, nothing. Real Christianity, everything.

As for Washington and Communion, perhaps you should research why he did that.



 
Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com
 



posted on Jun, 21 2011 @ 01:31 PM
link   
Reply to post by Annee
 


You can roll your eyes all you want. If you did not mean to imply, you should've edited that part out.

It was used in your rebuttal to me, which means that that is what you believe.


 
Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com
 





new topics




 
29
<< 1  2    4  5  6 >>

log in

join