The United States was not founded in Christianity? I beg to differ.

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posted on Jun, 21 2011 @ 03:20 AM
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Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh
Reply to post by starwarsisreal
 


That does not negate the fact that Biblical portions and Christianity (which Deism is an offshoot of) did not play a heavy role in the formation of our Republic.


Please tell me where you got "Deism is an offshoot of Christianity".

And explain how it is.




posted on Jun, 21 2011 @ 03:26 AM
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Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh

I have no need to use a faith based website to get my talking points. I can easily pull them out, as you did to try and refute my claims. But all that shows is a knee-jerk reaction, which is more often than not, lacking logic.


I'm an Atheist - - but you're claiming logic and I'm showing knee-jerk reaction. Interesting.

I was raised Christian - - so I am fully aware of the belief.

If you don't need to use a Faith Based website to prove your points - - why are you?



posted on Jun, 21 2011 @ 03:37 AM
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Originally posted by Annee


True. Deists do not believe in a god to worship or follow. They basically believe in a Universe Architect. In other words something or someone created all that exists - - - then walked away leaving man to build on it.

So yes - when god is used - it doesn't mean a god of worship. It means something like a Right of Man or given to man.


As a Christian Deist i will have to disagree.
Deists believe in the existence of God, on purely rational grounds, without any reliance on revealed religion.
One key difference between Deism and the "revealed" religions is that Deists don't believe faith is required to believe in God.
Christian deists believe that philosopher Jesus gave a group of good moral teachings
and adopt the ethics and non-mystical teachings of Jesus, while denying that Jesus was a deity.

We believe in god some deist may use the term Universe Architect as a name for god but it is still a belief in god.

moderndeism.com...
www.deism.com...
www.christiandeistfellowship.com...



posted on Jun, 21 2011 @ 03:57 AM
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From the world union of deists

"Revelation, or revealed religion, is defined in Webster's New World Dictionary as: "God's disclosure to man of Himself." This should read, "God's alleged disclosure to man of himself." For unless God reveals to each of us individually that a particular religion is truly His disclosure to us of Himself, then, by believing that religion, we are not taking His word for it, but we are instead putting our belief in the person or institution telling us it is so. This is what we are doing when we believe in any revealed religion, and that's all Christianity is. It's a revealed religion like many others such as Islam and Judaism. Revealed religion gets dangerous however, when it crosses over the line into politics. This is the admitted goal of the Christian Coalition. God allegedly revealed to Pat Robertson and his Coalition, that He wants them to take over America and eventually the world with "His Word," so the laws of the nations will mirror the laws in the Bible, which, if you know what's in the Bible, is terrifying. This, too, is what the Ayatollah's goal was, only his "revealed word of God" was the Koran, an other revelation. Are we to believe Pat when he says the Bible is revelation of God's Word?"

edit on 21-6-2011 by randyvs because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 21 2011 @ 04:11 AM
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Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh
God is the sovereign authority. Not government.

Try and tell that to them (govt.) and see how far you get;
Next time the government comes to collect your taxes
tell them just how you feel,
in that they are not the sovereign authority (Lol)
As for God creating democracy, legislating abortion and
gay marriages, well that's a new one.


edit on 21/6/11 by ToneDeaf because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 21 2011 @ 04:19 AM
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reply to post by Lemon.Fresh
 



God is the sovereign authority. Not government. Not man. I can hear the appeals already. "God is not mentioned in the Constitution," they will say.


At best, you have made the case that some of the founders believed in some sort of deity.Your claim, however, is that the nation was founded on Christianity. The distinguishing characteristic of Christianity is not belief in a creator, but in a savior. Please indicate which part of the Constitution mandates the acceptance of Jesus Christ in order to achieve salvation. Haven't you ever wondered why the Declaration of Independence didn't begin: In Congress, July 4th, in the year of Our Lord, 1776?



posted on Jun, 21 2011 @ 04:26 AM
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The overall imprint of Christ on The United States of America is perhaps his statement "Know thyself and you will Know the Father" .



posted on Jun, 21 2011 @ 06:51 AM
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Granted the founding fathers was carful not to promote a specific religious belief in the Constitution.

But to say that that Christian belief has not influenced this great nation is another story. This nation is run by the will of the people. Currently and historically, Christianity is the major religion in the U.S. Just look at the movements for Women’s Right to Vote to the Civil Rights, all started by Christian affiliations.

It’s only after the 60’s this has changed and look at the mess the U.S. is in.



posted on Jun, 21 2011 @ 06:56 AM
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Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh

Freedom of Religion:

But Lemon, isn't freedom of religion contrary to Christian dogma? NEGATIVE! In Matthew 19:16-23, the rich young ruler comes to Jesus. After a brief conversation, the young man “went away sorrowful,” choosing not to follow Christ. The salient point here is that Jesus let him go. God does not “force” belief in Him. Faith is commanded but never coerced. In Matthew 23:37, Jesus expresses His desire to gather the children of Jerusalem to Himself, but they “were not willing.” If God gives men the freedom to choose or to reject Him, then so should we.



Pity that isn't practiced in real life.

As far as I'm concerned the whole premise of the U.S. was 'Freedom'. By stating that the U.S. was founded as a Christian nation you are contradicting this premise no matter what religious rhetoric or mumbo-jumbo you come up with to explain it away.



posted on Jun, 21 2011 @ 07:12 AM
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reply to post by Lemon.Fresh
 



Look guy if you want to cherry pick lines from the old testament and grant them authority then maybe you should just give the entire old testament authority so we can go back to stoning people for adultery and for disobeying their parents.


+10 more 
posted on Jun, 21 2011 @ 07:12 AM
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reply to post by Lemon.Fresh
 


Beg to differ? Well, you're wrong then.


Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh
This post will probably incite a flame war.

But I wish to show you the TRUTH, that is if you can deny ignorance.



Knowing your posts, the exact opposite is contained in your posts.



It is a common thought now-a-days that the United States was not founded in Christianity. I do not know when this idea became mainstream, but it is absolutely false. I will show you why.


This idea became mainstream around 1776 and then faded out due to revivalism that spread throughout the US periodically. Many of the founders were deists, one may have been an atheist (Franklin).



God is the sovereign authority:

God is the sovereign authority. Not government. Not man. I can hear the appeals already. "God is not mentioned in the Constitution," they will say.


I'm sorry, but which God do you mean? That's my objection. There is no objective evidence of this deity.
Also, were a deity mentioned, how would you make it the theistic deity as opposed to the deistic deity?



In the beginning God created mankind in His own image, placed man on the Land, gave man dominion, agency and possession.


None of that ever happened, please bone up on the last 150 years of science.

Eh, fornicate it. You aren't here to talk, your post is ramblingly long, and it contains Bible quotes. You don't quote a single instance of anything in the early history of the USA, yet you quote the Bible. That's just idiotic.

Here's my entire counter-argument against you:
America is not a Christian nation. It's explicitly stated within US law; in a treaty written in 1796


As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen,—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.


I think people in 1796 had a pretty damn good idea on how the nation was founded. Since I have a matter of approved legislation which actively declares that the USA was no founded on Christianity less than ten years after the ratification of the Constitution....I win. You lose.



posted on Jun, 21 2011 @ 07:12 AM
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Originally posted by Kryties

Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh

Freedom of Religion:

But Lemon, isn't freedom of religion contrary to Christian dogma? NEGATIVE! In Matthew 19:16-23, the rich young ruler comes to Jesus. After a brief conversation, the young man “went away sorrowful,” choosing not to follow Christ. The salient point here is that Jesus let him go. God does not “force” belief in Him. Faith is commanded but never coerced. In Matthew 23:37, Jesus expresses His desire to gather the children of Jerusalem to Himself, but they “were not willing.” If God gives men the freedom to choose or to reject Him, then so should we.



Pity that isn't practiced in real life.

As far as I'm concerned the whole premise of the U.S. was 'Freedom'. By stating that the U.S. was founded as a Christian nation you are contradicting this premise no matter what religious rhetoric or mumbo-jumbo you come up with to explain it away.


Exactly as he said it here.

Mod Note: One Line Post – Please Review This Link.
edit on 22-6-2011 by Gemwolf because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 21 2011 @ 07:15 AM
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reply to post by totalmetal
 


Don't forget forcing women to marry their rapists, allowing daughters to be sold into slavery, forcing women to go through purity rituals following menstruation, and all that other fun stuff.



posted on Jun, 21 2011 @ 07:22 AM
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reply to post by Lemon.Fresh
 


Come on, Lemon.Fresh, study your history, not a website that puts a Christian slant on everything. Thomas Jefferson hated the NT so much he wrote his own version. Once a month or so someone comes in here and says this. You know, Hitler said something once that comes to bear on this, "tell the people a lie enough times, they will come to believe it."

Thomas Jefferson on the Christian Religion. These can be looked up, he said these things.

Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
(Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782)

Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.
(Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787)

I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent.
(Thomas Jefferson, letter to Francis Hopkinson, March 13, 1789)

History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.
(Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813)

The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills.
(Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814)

The Founding Fathers Speak Out on God, Religion and the First Amendment

Founding Fathers, Deists, Orthodox Christians, and the Spiritual Context of 18th Century America

The Founding Fathers Were Not Christians

Religion and the Founding Fathers

Let me ask you, Lemon.Fresh, in all honesty here, do you think for a second that if the Founding Fathers had all been Christians, like you claim, that they would have made certain that Christianity was the official State religion?



posted on Jun, 21 2011 @ 10:16 AM
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Originally posted by ANNED
As a Christian Deist i will have to disagree.

Deists believe in the existence of God, on purely rational grounds, without any reliance on revealed religion.
One key difference between Deism and the "revealed" religions is that Deists don't believe faith is required to believe in God.

Christian deists believe that philosopher Jesus gave a group of good moral teachings
and adopt the ethics and non-mystical teachings of Jesus, while denying that Jesus was a deity.


Christian Deist - - well that's kind of an Oxymoron if ever I heard one.

We are talking about some of the Founding Fathers who considered themselves True Deists - - - not Christian Deists. Other religions recognize Jesus too - - but not as a messiah.

I am well aware Universe Architect can also be called God. I intentionally and deliberately do not use the term God - - because of the religious connotation.

Deism is the belief that a supreme power created the universe and that this, and other truths, can be determined using reason and by observing the natural world.

For deists there is no need for faith, nor organized religion in order to come to these conclusions. Most deists don't see holy books and divine revelation as an authoritative source, but rather as interpretations by other humans.

In the words of Thomas Paine, an author, inventor and one of the Founding Fathers of the United States: "The true Deist has but one Deity, and his religion consists in contemplating the power, wisdom, and benignity of the Deity in his works, and in endeavoring to imitate him in everything moral, scientifical, and mechanical."
edit on 21-6-2011 by Annee because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 21 2011 @ 10:24 AM
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Iroquois Constitution...

Here's some influence for you.


The Iroquois' detailed constitution -- called the Great Law of Peace -- guaranteed freedom of religion and expression and other rights later embraced in the U.S. Constitution, said Jaime Hill, co-editor of "American Indian," a new Smithsonian magazine about the past, present and future of indigenous peoples from throughout the Western Hemisphere.



According to the Iroquois constitution, states were first to solve disputes between them on their own. If resolution efforts failed then the national government would take authority, Hill said.



The Iroquois place the creation of their constitution, which was recorded on belts, at between 1000 and 1400 A.D., according to the Smithsonian magazine. The Great Law said the national government should have a commander-in-chief and that person should present a "state of the union" address to the nation, Hill said.


And I don't think these folks had a bible laying around to reference.
edit on 6/21/2011 by Klassified because: Redacted and reworded



posted on Jun, 21 2011 @ 12:10 PM
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Originally posted by bobbobulau
Granted the founding fathers was carful not to promote a specific religious belief in the Constitution.

But to say that that Christian belief has not influenced this great nation is another story.


Being "influenced" is a far cry from being "founded" in Christianity.

I think the quotations from those fine Virginians Jefferson and Madison, the respective main authors of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution which Annee posted, said it all about what this country was founded on.

FYI for all those crippled in the mistaken belief that the religious fanatics at Plymouth Rock were some how the founders of the colonies, they weren't. It was a bunch of drunks, dandies, and ne'er-do-wells at a place called Jamestown thirteen years before those "pilgrims" arrived.
edit on 21-6-2011 by mydarkpassenger because: add



posted on Jun, 21 2011 @ 12:15 PM
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Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh
Reply to post by Annee
 


--Anyone who tells you that the Founding Fathers were trying to create a Christian nation is either a liar or parroting what other liars told him--

So I am a liar.


If you had bothered to look at the article I linked - - you would have seen that statement is part of the article.



You quoted the article, which implies that that is what you believe. Perhaps you should be more careful and say what you mean and mean what you say. :shrug:



posted on Jun, 21 2011 @ 12:19 PM
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Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh
Reply to post by starwarsisreal
 


That does not negate the fact that Biblical portions and Christianity (which Deism is an offshoot of) did not play a heavy role in the formation of our Republic.


Please tell me where you got "Deism is an offshoot of Christianity".

And explain how it is.


Deism is an offshoot of Christianity that disavowed divine intervention etc., but very much held to the Christian system of morality and the concept of mankind being "endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights."



--Simply put, if you believe in God, and that God is knowable through reason and observation, you may be a Deist. If you believe that God intends for us to follow the natural law of “do unto others, as you would have done unto you”, you might just be a Christian Deist.

. . .

Christian Deism is a natural religion that maintains a firm belief in God the Creator; and strives to follow the natural commandments of God, as taught by one of the greatest teachers of natural religion, Jesus of Nazareth.--

Link



posted on Jun, 21 2011 @ 12:21 PM
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reply to post by Annee
 


I used one, not even in the OP, because typing on my phone is a pain in the ass.

I said I would expand on it later, which I plan to do.





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