The third Intifada- What went wrong?

Originally posted by pavil

Originally posted by TheImmaculateD1


Palestine has already cut Hamas off as they have done nothing positive nor constructive for anyone. Hamas like Hezbollah is not to be trusted.

Don't know where you have gotten that impression. Fatah and Hamas supposedly have patched up their differences. I would not trust Hamas, especially since the best offer they have given is a multi-year ceasefire and that they wouldn't be bound by past agreements. What happens after the ceasefire expires in Hamas's vision of the world? At least they are stupidly honest about their intentions.

Palestine was told around 2006 internally that for the world to take her seriously that she must kick both Fatah and Hamas to the curb for which they are doing.

This "Third Intifada" is just another episode of Arabs shooting themselves in the foot. Seriously... If there's anything that can make matters worst for the Palestinians, it's the Arabs themselves. They try to advance Palestinian causes while acting as if Israel doesn't exist and then they're "surprised" when there's an Israeli response...

This intifada is not as bad as when the Palestinians voted Hamas into power, but it still showed a high level of stupidity. If the Arabs continue to show a lack of critical thinking, like this intifada, the Palestinians are f**ked.

If the Arabs wanted more land, they should've accepted the UN Partition Plan in 1947(The Jews did) and recognized the the State of Israel in 1948. Had they've done that, Israel would've been a lot smaller today. But did the Arabs do that? NO. They thought they could just get rid of Israel themselves and they paid the price. The Arabs lost more land ever since, because of one stupid mistake after another...

The world can vote on a Palestinian state AGAIN, but it won't make a difference if the Arab states don't recognize the State of Israel. This vote will just provoke more conflict in the region and let's not forget that Israel today has one of the most advanced, sophisticated, and highly trained militaries in the world. So who's going to pay the price AGAIN? It's like they just don't want to learn from their mistakes...

You give them a bomb, they strap it around themselves... You give them a gun, they point it at themselves...

Lost case...

reply to post by pavil


I completely agree, I'm against the whole settlement deal, I'm just contesting the idea that there is no financial growth and development in the West Bank due to settlement expansion.

reply to post by DJAghetto

This "Third Intifada" is just another episode of Arabs shooting themselves in the foot. Seriously... If there's anything that can make matters worst for the Palestinians, it's the Arabs themselves. They try to advance Palestinian causes while acting as if Israel doesn't exist and then they're "surprised" when there's an Israeli response...

who cares about an israeli response when the "israelis" have no business in the middle east?

I just picked up a history book and learned something totally amazing... the palestinians had nothing to do with jewish misery and therefore DO NOT deserve to be treated like sh## by the israelis.

This intifada is not as bad as when the Palestinians voted Hamas into power, but it still showed a high level of stupidity. If the Arabs continue to show a lack of critical thinking, like this intifada,

Is that not what democracy.... you know... that sh## that America loves shoving down everybodys throat?
So what if Hamas got elected into power? It still remains that it was the choice of the people.

the Palestinians are f**ked.

No.. the world is f**ked because it overlooks what Israel is doing to the palestinians, while keeping alive the memory of the jews went through.

If the Arabs wanted more land, they should've accepted the UN Partition Plan in 1947(The Jews did) and recognized the the State of Israel in 1948. Had they've done that, Israel would've been a lot smaller today. But did the Arabs do that? NO. They thought they could just get rid of Israel themselves and they paid the price. The Arabs lost more land ever since, because of one stupid mistake after another...

Absolute rubbish. Fact remains that

a)the muslim arabs have been living in the middle east (alongside a jewish minority) long before the state of israel was formed.
b)they had NOTHING to do with the events that led to the formation of Israel.

The world can vote on a Palestinian state AGAIN, but it won't make a difference if the Arab states don't recognize the State of Israel.

Why should they?

This vote will just provoke more conflict in the region and let's not forget that Israel today has one of the most advanced, sophisticated, and highly trained militaries in the world. So who's going to pay the price AGAIN? It's like they just don't want to learn from their mistakes...

No one gives a flying # about Israels "advanced, sophisticated, and highly trained militaries". Im sure Hitlers military was equally as impressive.

I mean, think about it..... someone lets me invade your home because if got messed up [u[ elsewhere by someone else ... you resist... I beat you up and have the neighbourhood on my side... you throw a frying pan at me... but I have you get labelled a "terrorist" and I lock you up in the basement of your own home...AND the world just sits around twiddling thumbs.

Not very fair is it?


.

sorry double post

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Please review my post again and tell me where Im wrong.

Well..

but ignores the fact that there is a concentration-camp state living under the boots of israel.

What makes you think it's that bad? You do realize that day to day interaction between soldiers and Palestinians is friendly and civil, do you?
And as for concentration camps? I have (Arab) friends who go to nightclubs in Ramallah and Nablus instead of Tel Aviv.. Concentration camps? Where the hell is this coming from?

the msm does not report the full extent/magnitude of their misery.

the violence perpetrated upon the israelis by Palestinians acting out over THEIR land being taken over is also exaggerated...

How do you know? When have you ever lived here?

Have you considered the possibility that your news sources are reporting with the complete polar opposite bias of what you're describing?

What makes you distrust the MSM, and completely trust your news sources?

This is my main beef with your viewpoint.

or are they rationalizing that what the nazis were doing was bad.

That's a very good point, the issue here though is that people usually get their information from different and often conflicting news sources, and fail to reach the obvious conclusion that the truth lies somewhere in the middle, so, depending on the narrative of your choice, news favoring one side will always be lies, bull# and propaganda, and news favoring the other side will always be "the truth".

The situation in Israel is far from the events of the holocaust, the fact that you were led to believe otherwise, like many others are, is what's most troubling.

With respect,
Eliad.

reply to post by backinblack


Hey, you know I agree with you completely on the whole settlements thing, but this conflict has been going on long before the settlements were even established, long before the 67' war, some would say long before the 48' war.

At the same time other people would say that the entire state of Israel is sitting on stolen land.

But if we put this endless bickering aside for a minute, we'll realize that Palestinian retaliation is and has always been purely political, there have always been (and there probably always will be) people pulling the strings behind the scenes, be it Egypt that created, armed and guided the PLO and Fadayin, be it Russia that used the Arab nations as proxies for their cold war, be it Iran and Syria seeking to gain regional power.

It all boils down to shadowy, dirty politics.

And how can Palestine grow with Israel's settlements and the blockade on needed items to build?

The blockade is one thing, the settlements are another.

Also in Israel's own words, they are worried about "defensive borders'. That means they will take MORE land around the settlements as a buffer zone..

The negotiations talk about Israel keeping around 2-3 percent of the West Bank. That's it.

With respect,
Eliad.

reply to post by DJAghetto


Well, if it makes an difference to you, it seems like the majority of Palestinians refused to take part in this third Intifada, so it seems as though things have changed.

reply to post by Eliad

What makes you think it's that bad? You do realize that day to day interaction between soldiers and Palestinians is friendly and civil, do you?
And as for concentration camps? I have (Arab) friends who go to nightclubs in Ramallah and Nablus instead of Tel Aviv.. Concentration camps? Where the hell is this coming from?

Well, Im happy that you get to meet Arab friends who hang out at nightclubs in Ramallah and Nablus. But it does not change the fact that the Palestinians have been screwed out of the land they have lived on for ages.

I can tell you that I know a bunch of jewish guys who oppose what Israel is doing to the Palestinian arab... will you be convinced?

How do you know? When have you ever lived here?

I have not lived in the middle east. I have also not lived in Europe where a certain other atrocity took place. Point being...my geographical location need not cloud my sensibilities or my sense of judegement. Wrong is wrong.

Have you considered the possibility that your news sources are reporting with the complete polar opposite bias of what you're describing?

Id love to believe I'm wrong. Honest.

Are you telling me that the Palestinians are actually happy that they have been living under the boots of the Israelis? Are they happy living the way they are?

Please, try and convince me... and no, your 5 Arab nightclub friends dont count.

What makes you distrust the MSM, and completely trust your news sources?

Give me one good reason to trust the MSM as a reliable source of information.

If the MSM is good enough for you, so be it... but there is no reason why I should accept MSM coverage of middle east issues as being factual.

so, depending on the narrative of your choice, news favoring one side will always be lies, bull# and propaganda, and news favoring the other side will always be "the truth".

I will criticize Israel and defend Palestine the same way that I crticize Nazi germany and defend jews. Are you going to tell me that I've been following bull# propaganda in condeming the Nazis???

I sure hope not.

I am not German. I am not Jewish. I am not Palestinian/Arab/Muslim. Heck, I am not even christian.
So my view is as objective as it gets. This said, dont expect me to condone whatever a 21st century jew does, simply because I sympathize with their ordeal during WW2.

The situation in Israel is far from the events of the holocaust, the fact that you were led to believe otherwise, like many others are, is what's most troubling.

Sure, there are no nazi style concentration camps in israel. But that does not change the fact that the situation in Israel eerily resebles the attitude of the nazis, when it came to dealing with people who did not fit in with their...well.... rather naughty ideology.

reply to post by Eliad

The negotiations talk about Israel keeping around 2-3 percent of the West Bank. That's it.

Please show me where Israel said that's ALL they wish to keep and will give the rest back and stop settlements..

I don't think you can as one of Israel's big whinges is "defensive borders".
They have actually implied they want MORE land, not less. and that's recently..

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

will you be convinced?

Convinced? You're talking to one.

I don't agree with everything my government does, I just this the reality of living here is much more complex than one side being good and the other evil.

As they say on Facebook- It's complicated.

my geographical location need not cloud my sensibilities or my sense of judegement. Wrong is wrong.

Yes, but sensation driven journalism does. Question is- Is your sense of judgement based on the reality on the ground, or is it based on what you're being shown in whatever news outlet you choose to view?

Are you telling me that the Palestinians are actually happy that they have been living under the boots of the Israelis? Are they happy living the way they are?

Do you think Israelis are happy living under the constant threat of rocket attacks?

Does that mean they live under the Palestinian's boots? No.

Each of us live our lives, the amount of contact Palestinians have with Israeli soldiers is *minimal*, it's either by choice, or it happens when they pass into Israel, and all these incidents you get to hear about? Demolitions, riots, etc, they're *the exception*, not the rule.

Israel does not control the West Bank, it does not control Gaza, Gaza is controlled by Hamas, the West Bank is controlled by the PA, you will not find a single soldier in Rammalah or Nablus, for example.

and no, your 5 Arab nightclub friends dont count

Just saying, I've got people with eyes on the ground, I don't have to make guesses as to the condition of these places.

Give me one good reason to trust the MSM as a reliable source of information.

I don't watch American MSM, I don't know what exactly what goes on there, but from what I've seen they're very sensationalism oriented.

You can't trust anything, don't you realize? Use your head, is all I'm saying, don't just swallow whatever you're being sold by the MSM, by the pro Zionist/pro Palestinian blogs, by politically biased websites, etc, use your head, the truth always lies somewhere between both sides of the propaganda.

Are you going to tell me that I've been following bull# propaganda in condeming the Nazis???

Nazi Germany and Israel are completely different, the extremity to which the Germans went during the Nazi reigns were immense.

This is simply a conflict, an ongoing war, with both sides being wrong about many things, and, as in all wars, guilty of committing horrible crimes against each other.

Germany declared war on the world for no reason other than it being better than anyone else. Do you really feel this is the same?

This said, dont expect me to condone whatever a 21st century jew does, simply because I sympathize with their ordeal during WW2.

You're the one who keeps mentioning the holocaust and the Nazis as if it's some kind of magical key to get me to agree with anything you say..

But that does not change the fact that the situation in Israel eerily resebles the attitude of the nazis, when it came to dealing with people who did not fit in with their...well.... rather naughty ideology.

Spend one day in Israel and you'll know for a fact that's not true.

With respect,
Eliad.

reply to post by backinblack


Did they?

The whole defensible borders thing is bull#, it's political mumbo jumbo that's meant to stall the whole thing, just as the whole "we can't negotiate while 50 more houses are built" is the same kind of political bull# meant to stall the negotiations.

Both sides are politicians, they know exactly what the deal is, Abbas knows exactly why Neyanuahu can't completely freeze the settlements, and Netanyahu knows his borders are fine, they're just doing this whole song a dance routine because both of them want another term in office.

As for the amount of land kept in the negotiations-

2000 Camp david:

The Israeli prime minister, Ehud Barak reportedly[25] offered the Palestinian leader approximately 95% of the West Bank and the entire Gaza Strip, if 69 Jewish settlements (which comprise 85% of the West Bank's Jewish settlers) be ceded to Israel.

2000 Clinton parameters:

Proposed in the Fall of 2000 following the collapse of the Camp David talks, The Clinton Parameters included a plan on which the Palestinian State was to include 94-96% of the West Bank,[...] and in exchange for that, Israel would concede some territory [...] The swap would consist of 1-3% of Israeli territory, such that the final borders of the West Bank part of the Palestinian state would include 97% of the land of the original borders.

And these are the same numbers discussed today.

The settlements are mostly sitting on a very small chunk of the West Bank.

They have actually implied they want MORE land, not less. and that's recently..

No, they didn't actually, it's just an excuse not to go all the way back to the 67' lines. Again, we're talking about 3% of the West Bank here (from the more recent figures I've heard), how does that make it defensible? It's absurd.

With respect,
Eliad.

reply to post by Eliad

The whole defensible borders thing is bull#, it's political mumbo jumbo that's meant to stall the whole thing, just as the whole "we can't negotiate while 50 more houses are built" is the same kind of political bull# meant to stall the negotiations.

Mate, honestly, building "1" more house is "1" too many..
How can you say in one sentence that Israel is "truly" prepared to give back settlement land while you consider "any" ongoing settlement OK ??
That seems a little hypocritical..

reply to post by backinblack


In the end it's all politics- Netanyahu knows that some of what he builds will eventually be evacuated, and Abbas knows that most of what Israel builds is built *within* existing settlements and isn't such a big expansion...

Both are simply too weak to do something that would anger any of their voters.

There was a 10 month settlement freeze during which Abbas just sat on his ass and did nothing.

You think the settlements aren't evacuated for ideological reasons, or land grabbing? Guess again, as usual the reasons are money and politics-

Politics- If you evacuate the settlements you're going to have trouble with a lot of voters, especially as Netanyahu represents the right, and with Israeli politics being the cluster# that they are.

Money- The amount of money it would cost to relocate these people, most likely by force, the amount of money, time and effort it would take to build them new homes and transition them to their new homes, we're talking about half a million people here, this would not be a small feat.

We're also talking about people here, people who have built homes, communities, etc, you can't just tear them off like a band aid... And considering most of them sit *right on* the border, and occupy less than 4% of the West Bank, I'd say trying to negotiate for them isn't such a crazy idea...

With respect,
Eliad.

reply to post by Eliad


IMO this has nothing to do with Netanyahu or the current Israeli Government.
They are nothing but puppets to the true rulers just like the US and most other countries.

The Zionists, lead by the Rothschilds have been working on this plan since well before the Balfour treaty and they will not want peace until Israel has ALL the land as promised by a book..

BTW, thank you for your civil debating style.

reply to post by backinblack


You too

I just find it hard to swallow the whole Zionists control the world story.

If they do control the world, how come Israel isn't the strongest nation in it?

Why did Israel give back the Sinai peninsula?

Why doesn't Israel more money?

And what is this plan exactly? What is the ultimate goal? The West Bank and Gaza, is that it? That's their entire plan? They exert so much control over the world and they can't manage such a small thing?

Also why is Israel always on the news, and in such detail? Wouldn't it be wiser for them to keep it out of the public's eye like they do with the wars in Afghanistan, like they do with the Chinese oppressive government, like they do with all the other major conflicts on earth?

If they're so powerful, why can't they make the U.S army go into Gaza and end this conflict.

How is it that they don't realize that in adding the West Bank to Israel they're basically dooming any chance Israel had of remaining Jewish, as the demography would change and the Jews will become the minority?

It's just all too simple- "The Rothschild did it!"

I highly doubt Israel is favored by the U.S because it's controlled by Jewish bankers. If I were you I'd look into ownership of all the large banks in the U.S and see if it's really all run by Jews...

With respect,
Eliad.

reply to post by Eliad


The simple answer is that Governments do not control the world, "MONEY" does..

Rothschilds have clearly stated that and they are in control of the money supply through central/reserve banks and other means..

I would be happy to bet that the majority of Australians are not even aware that our Reserve Bank and it's Governor/Board are NOT a Government entity and are actually privately owned..
It seems to be one of the world's best kept secrets IMO..

reply to post by backinblack


Are you seriously claiming that there is not even one government in the world that could not make the Rothschild disappear off the face of the earth on a whim?

Tell me, what power do they have exactly? Yes, money makes the world go round, and who has the money? You think the Rothschilds have the money simply because they own the bank? You think the president of the U.S has less power than these bankers?

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure, as with anyone that has money, that they have power, I just don't think they're as powerful as you imagine them to be.

If they had there'd be no holocaust, there'd be no persecution of Jews, there'd be no conflict in the Middle East, there'd be no coverage of the Palestinian Israel conflict, there'd be no flotilla, no Iranian support for Hamas and Hezbollah, no Palestinian vote at the general assembly..

The list goes on. It just doesn't make sense, it's a silly made up story meant to make the Jews into a conniving scheming race of shadowy figures, who'd made everyone their puppets, and to which you must resist.

Eliad.

Originally posted by Eliad
reply to post by DJAghetto

 

Well, if it makes an difference to you, it seems like the majority of Palestinians refused to take part in this third Intifada, so it seems as though things have changed.

Reason being for the adstainment is that they want to see what happens with the UN Vote before they make their next move.

reply to post by Eliad

It just doesn't make sense, it's a silly made up story meant to make the Jews into a conniving scheming race of shadowy figures, who'd made everyone their puppets, and to which you must resist.

No mate..It's a small number of Jews and others..
Lets remember, some Jews financed Hitler..
Much history is out there and all you need to do is read through and sort the truth out..