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100% conclusive evidence that a plane did hit the pentagon.

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posted on Jun, 23 2011 @ 10:36 AM
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Originally posted by TupacShakur
reply to post by GoodOlDave
 

You have been provided with a testimony from a decorated Navy pilot with thousands of flying hours under his belt, along with a link to over 250 other pilot testimonies who unanimously agree that the official story is a lie, yet you deny the validity of those testimonies. There is nothing more that I can do to convince you otherwise, if hundreds of experienced pilots stating on the record that the official story is a lie, and your response is "they must be lying", then it's clear that there is no getting through to you.


I don't know what to tell you, guy, as I gave you proof that what this guy is claiming is false and it cannot be refuted. He's claiming no aircract wreckage was found when we all know there was, he's claiming no engine parts were found when we all know there were, he's claiming no landing gear were located when we all know there was, and he didn't even know passenger remains were recovered and I even showed you the photos. Plus, he's saying it's impossible to fly a plane in a circle when hordes of eyewitnesses who were physycally there specifially said that Hanjour did. You can swoon over his credentials as much as you want, but the fact remains that the things he's saying are still incorrect regardless of whether he has 6,000 hours or one hour of flight time.

Seriously, would you believe two plus two equals five simply because a mathemetician told you it did? You can't tell me that you don't have a political agenda to push out these conspiracy stories at work here.



Those images of bodies which you provided contain no evidence that they were taken at the Pentagon; the Pentagon is not visible for refrence, so those are images of bodies from a plane crash to me, and there have been many plane crashes over the years. I know what you're thinking, "I showed you pictures of bodies yet you still don't believe?!", but I just cannot accept that three photographs with no reference points to validate that they are indeed taken from the Pentagon is conclusive evidence that a 757 crashed into it.


First of all, it's inane to gripe about restricting access to human remains recovered from crash sites because that's standard policy in every corner of the world. Second, simply accusing the photos of being staged is not proof they were staged. It's simply a desire on your part that they're staged becuase you don't want to accept your conspiracy stories are rubbish. These photos were entered as evidence in the Maussaoui trial and his legal defense team accepted the photos as being legitimate, so the photos have an established provenance and you're simply making things up to suit your own purposes.


However you're forgetting one crucial yet fundamentally simple law of general relativity: space-time, for every place, there is also a time. He hit the place, and since that's a 20% chance in your book, you're leaving out the time factor. Those renovations are not permanent, they are a limited time engagement. He happened to hit that section of the pentagon, a 1 in 5 chance, during the time-frame that the renovations were happening, which greatly expands those odds of 1 in 5.


Not really. It's more of the case that the conspiracy mongors are reverse engineering their facts and picking out something unusual about that particular wing to embellish their conspiracy stories. It was a gigantic office building so every section had something unique going on, so if it wasn't "suspicious" how the plane hit the area where there were renovations to reduce casualties, it would be how the plane "suspiciously" hit the section where all the computer server rooms were located in order to destroy evidence, or how "suspicious" it was that the plane hit when some important dignitary in order to assassinate him, or whatever. Each individual side had a 20% chance of being hit but the conspiracy mongors had a 100% chance of finding something they could cherry pick to wave around as being "suspicious".

So far, the conspiracy theorists have done nothing but grasp at straws and manufacture their own evidence tryign to push out these absurd conspiracy claims...and now you're telling me I'm obligated to believe some guy repeating bad information entirely because he has 6,000 flight hours. Do I really need to tell you that you conspiracy theorists are acting a heck a lot more phony than any of these "OS supporters" you're complaining about?




posted on Jun, 23 2011 @ 10:39 AM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Jun, 23 2011 @ 10:42 AM
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reply to post by dillweed
 


You are spot on... I am glad to see that there is intelligent life here, even if it is sarcastic.

"Keep eating the OS that TPTB is spoon feeding you" Every single part of the OS is a LIE (unless it backs up my theory)



posted on Jun, 23 2011 @ 10:54 AM
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Originally posted by dillweed
If you are new here, this thread should serve as an excellent example of how a small group of marginally talented individuals can disrupt our fight to bring the criminals responsible for 9/11 to justice. As a previous poster said, this thread should read 99.9% proof a plane didn't hit the pentagon. Their story's weak, and growing weaker with each post they make propping up the OS. Keep posting boys, you're digging your own graves.


If you're new here, this post should serve as an excellent example of how someone who has nothing substantive to say chooses instead to get his thrills from taking a cheap shot and running away. He does this so he doesn't don't get drawn into a conversation where it becomes clear how little he actually knows.



posted on Jun, 23 2011 @ 10:56 AM
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Originally posted by dubiousone
reply to post by TupacShakur
 


Good ol' Dave is a consistent chap, no doubt!

You could transport him back in time and make him an eyewitness to what really happened in all its minute detail and he still would cling to what he posts on ATS. Evidence is just an irrelevant minor annoyance to the ATS Gang of Trusters.


This is absolutely true. If I was standing there along with the hundred other witnesses who specifically saw the plane impact the Pentagon, I'd definitely be repeating her eon ATS what I saw. These trusters explicitely trust everything those damned fool conspiracy websites are pushing out so of course they'd ignore everything I saw and instead go with the drivel those Loose Change characters are making up about missile pods on flight 175.

Sorry, trusters, but I'm still going to have to side in with the people who were there and are telling us what they saw. They were there, and Dylan Avery wasn't.



posted on Jun, 23 2011 @ 10:56 AM
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Originally posted by kaya82
All these ppl who mock conspiracys why the hell are you on a conspiracy site then? DUH!


You believe the OS is either all or part lies - right? Some of us believe the conspiracies are the same - and have even provided evidence of this. So what's the problem?
edit on 23-6-2011 by userid1 because: civility



posted on Jun, 23 2011 @ 11:03 AM
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Originally posted by matadoor
reply to post by GoodOlDave
 


Dave, I simply LOVE your avatar, it fits here so well!!!


LOL thanks. The whole reason I even created an avatar was because these conspiracy people were pestering me to create one, as they seemed to think I was some secret disinformation agent from my not having an avatar that distinguishes myself here as a serious poster.

They're pleased that I followed their advice, I'm sure.



posted on Jun, 23 2011 @ 11:05 AM
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reply to post by GoodOlDave
 


If I was standing there along with the hundred other witnesses who specifically saw the plane impact the Pentagon,

if you/ they didn't take a picture
it didn't happen
edit on 23-6-2011 by Danbones because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 23 2011 @ 11:14 AM
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Originally posted by Danbones
reply to post by GoodOlDave
 


If I was standing there along with the hundred other witnesses who specifically saw the plane impact the Pentagon,

if you/ they didn't take a picture
it didn't happen
edit on 23-6-2011 by Danbones because: (no reason given)


Using that logic, then Charles Manson and his followers should be free since no one snapped a pic of them committing any crimes - right?



posted on Jun, 23 2011 @ 11:18 AM
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reply to post by Danbones
 


LOL, can you picture the conversation... CIA OP " ok here is what we are going to have to do... We will need to place HUNDREDS of (agents) on the road way around the pentagon"...... "they will need to time their drive time based on the super secret time line we have laid out for attacking our own country" .... " They will need to change their story to fit our needs"



posted on Jun, 23 2011 @ 11:19 AM
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reply to post by Danbones
 


OJ didn't kill Nicole? MJ didn't fondle that little boys twig and berries? Kurt Cobain didnt split his wig with a Fed Load? This is great.. the whole world just changed!!!



posted on Jun, 23 2011 @ 11:49 AM
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reply to post by GoodOlDave
 

Alright after 20 pages of arguing, it's obvious that neither the OSers or the Truthers are going to change their mind. No matter what evidence is presented to back up our side of the story, you find some flaw in that evidence and toss it out the window. No matter what witness testimonies or photos of wreckage I see, I will also not be convinced until I see a legitimate video that provides sufficient evidence that a 757 hit the Pentagon. So we're just a bunch of stubborn fools wasting our time, however I do enjoy debating about this topic so I'll continue on with this meaningless bickering which will get us nowhere.



I don't know what to tell you, guy, as I gave you proof that what this guy is claiming is false and it cannot be refuted. He's claiming no aircract wreckage was found when we all know there was, he's claiming no engine parts were found when we all know there were, he's claiming no landing gear were located when we all know there was, and he didn't even know passenger remains were recovered and I even showed you the photos. Plus, he's saying it's impossible to fly a plane in a circle when hordes of eyewitnesses who were physycally there specifially said that Hanjour did. You can swoon over his credentials as much as you want, but the fact remains that the things he's saying are still incorrect regardless of whether he has 6,000 hours or one hour of flight time.

Like I said, neither of us will budge so we're wasting our time here, but I'll carry on. Aircraft wreckage definitely was on the site of the crash as you pointed out, however you completely failed to address the video which I posted, which showed dozens of men unloading from a bus prior to the Pentagons collapse, each carrying a full duffle bag and heading in that direction. What do you think is in those duffle bags? And even if you do not believe it is aircraft wreckage, do you believe that there is absolutely no chance that those bags could have been carrying aircraft wreckage to spread around the lawn? And I will take the word of an experienced pilot, who has 6000 hours of experience flying in that exact model of plane which the terrorist supposedly crashed, over witnesses who say the impossible was made possible. If he as well as 250 other experienced pilots say that the official story is a lie and that a 757 could not have pulled of that manuever, then I'm not going to say because some witnesses saw a plane fly in a circle that all of those pilots are wrong.

To say that all of those pilots who have amassed an extensive knowledge of airplanes over their lifetime are wrong because of what some witnesses say is a huge insult to their intelligence. The witness testimonies of a plane flying in a circle combined with the pilot testimonies that a 757 cannot fly in such a way leads me to believe that it wasn't a 757, not that every single one of those pilots is wrong.



First of all, it's inane to gripe about restricting access to human remains recovered from crash sites because that's standard policy in every corner of the world. Second, simply accusing the photos of being staged is not proof they were staged. It's simply a desire on your part that they're staged becuase you don't want to accept your conspiracy stories are rubbish. These photos were entered as evidence in the Maussaoui trial and his legal defense team accepted the photos as being legitimate, so the photos have an established provenance and you're simply making things up to suit your own purposes.

I'm not going to argue over this topic anymore, I told you why I don't consider those photographs as conclusive evidence that a 757 full of people crashed into the Pentagon in my last post directed towards you, and some lawyers accepting them as evidence in a trial which was a huge part of the 9/11 official story does not even come close to convincing me that they're legit. If I believe that the government was behind the 9/11 attacks, then why would I believe that a trial which convicted one of the pilots who was potentially used a scapegoat is evidence to support the legitimacy of those photographs?




Not really. It's more of the case that the conspiracy mongors are reverse engineering their facts and picking out something unusual about that particular wing to embellish their conspiracy stories. It was a gigantic office building so every section had something unique going on, so if it wasn't "suspicious" how the plane hit the area where there were renovations to reduce casualties, it would be how the plane "suspiciously" hit the section where all the computer server rooms were located in order to destroy evidence, or how "suspicious" it was that the plane hit when some important dignitary in order to assassinate him, or whatever. Each individual side had a 20% chance of being hit but the conspiracy mongors had a 100% chance of finding something they could cherry pick to wave around as being "suspicious".

"Something unusual" is a massive understatement, renovations were being done to the area of the Pentagon and the plane happened to hit that side of the Pentagon during the renovation time frame. That is a dead giveaway that the government planned and was involved in it since those are clearly preparations being made for when and where the plane would hit. Could it just be a massive coincidence? I suppose, but there are many other massive coincidences that occured on that day which are stastically impossible, such as the five or six wargames which were going on in the days leading up to the morning of the attack which hampered the militaries ability to respond to the attacks, because they thought it was a part of the war game. Big coincidence, right? I guess it's also a coincidence that Dick Cheney ordered the military to stand down and not intercept any of those hi-jacked planes, even though prior to that it was standard operating procedure to intercept and shoot down hi-jacked planes if necessary, without the consent of any politicians. However in June of 2001, he changed that procedure to require presidential/vice-presidential authority to do that.




Do I really need to tell you that you conspiracy theorists are acting a heck a lot more phony than any of these "OS supporters" you're complaining about?

Yes you do need to tell me that and I do not believe it for one second. I trust individual, credible American citizens who have nothing to gain by stating on the record what they see as flawed in the official story with evidence and facts to back it up, more than a government run organization who inspected the situation and told the public exactly what happened in an event that our government had many things to gain from. For example, the Patriot Act which followed shortly after took away many freedoms, in the name of freedom. On top of that, the attacks rallied us Americans and gave us a common enemy: Them darn terrists! 9/11 was a false flag attack, committed by our own government, in order to impose the Patriot Act and invade the Middle East.

Since you seem to be unaware of or either refuse to acknowledge the massive amounts of evidence which all point in the direction that our government was behind 9/11, I ask just one thing of you as well as every person who believes that the official story is factual and that the public has not been lied to. It'll seem big and you won't like it, but if you can do this, come back, and say 9/11 was not an inside job, I will respect you and quit arguing with you immediately: Pick one of these documentaries and watch them in full, or if you truly believe that the official story is true and that nothing will convince you otherwise, watch both with an unbiased opinion and I would like to see if your view changes.

Loose Change -- this documentary takes a look at much of the evidence, facts, testimonies, and expert opinions over 9/11, and combines it into a 2 hour film. This will present the evidence to you much better than some dude attempting to type them out on the internet.


Terrorstorm -- Instead of focusing just on the evidence over 9/11, this documentary takes a completely different approach and investigates the history of America and why 9/11 would be an inside job. It takes a look at previous false flag attacks, motives for the 9/11 attacks, similar scenarios which have occured throughout history and what followed those scenarios, and much more.


I would really prefer if you watched both documentaries, because the knowledge of the facts and evidence combined with the understanding of why our government would do such a thing and how they have done it many times in the past really shows you what 9/11 was about.
edit on 23-6-2011 by TupacShakur because: To edit my post



posted on Jun, 23 2011 @ 12:10 PM
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R

Originally posted by ShaunHatfield
reply to post by kaya82
 




All these ppl who mock conspiracys why the hell are you on a conspiracy site then? DUH!



posted on Jun, 23 2011 @ 12:17 PM
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It's been 10 years, just release the confiscated surviellance video from the Sheraton Hotel and lets put this to rest for once and for all....If the video shows a 757 crashing into the Pentagon, I promise I'll stop with my truther arguments about the Pentagon....

What I don't understand is the governments refusal to show it....If you speak the truth and the official story is 100% factual (the OS of the Pentagon attack), then why are you still holding the tapes??? If a group of people accused me of committing a crime that I didnt commit, you darn right I would love to shut them up and prove them wrong. I would show the evidence that I had and say "SEE, I told you this is what happened!!!!"....Now my question to you OSers is why is the government not proving all of us wrong here. Why don't they just release the tapes that show a plane hitting the Pentagon? Is this still a open investigation, meaning the tapes are still critical eveidence??? I dont think so....

I would love to be proved wrong, so please release the tapes already and PROVE ME WRONG...But until then, with no conclusive proof, I'm still going to have my doubts....Too many eye witness testimonies just dont add up, hundreds of people saw different things and the whole situation just smells a little fishy....



posted on Jun, 23 2011 @ 01:44 PM
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reply to post by jhn7537
 
If what you say is true, that there exists a video tape from that day and it's been surpressed, then that's where we should put our energy. "Release the Video!"



posted on Jun, 23 2011 @ 01:45 PM
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Originally posted by Danbones
reply to post by GoodOlDave
 


If I was standing there along with the hundred other witnesses who specifically saw the plane impact the Pentagon,

if you/ they didn't take a picture
it didn't happen


In that case, show me a photo of your supposed cruise missile hitting the Pentagon. Pics or it didn't happen.



posted on Jun, 23 2011 @ 02:05 PM
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Originally posted by dillweed
reply to post by jhn7537
 
If what you say is true, that there exists a video tape from that day and it's been surpressed, then that's where we should put our energy. "Release the Video!"



There is a surviellance video from the Sheraton Hotel, which would have a perfect view of the area that was hit, the tape was confiscated by the FBI immidiately after the attack... I believe people have put in requests to get the video released, but as of today, its been ignored...

If they have nothing to hide then show it, its that simple, lets put this issue to rest already....10 years of debating and arguing this issue is exhausting. My guess is that there's something on that tape and if the government keeps ignoring our requests they hope we will eventually just let it go...



posted on Jun, 23 2011 @ 02:32 PM
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Originally posted by jhn7537

Originally posted by dillweed
reply to post by jhn7537
 
If what you say is true, that there exists a video tape from that day and it's been surpressed, then that's where we should put our energy. "Release the Video!"



There is a surviellance video from the Sheraton Hotel, which would have a perfect view of the area that was hit, the tape was confiscated by the FBI immidiately after the attack... I believe people have put in requests to get the video released, but as of today, its been ignored...

If they have nothing to hide then show it, its that simple, lets put this issue to rest already....10 years of debating and arguing this issue is exhausting. My guess is that there's something on that tape and if the government keeps ignoring our requests they hope we will eventually just let it go...


You need to get beyond mere assertion and present some evidence that there is a relevant Sheraton Hotel tape. Have you checked with the hotel ?

If you found some evidence that such a tape exists you could send FBI Special Agent Maguire to jail because she, on behalf of the FBI, made a declaration, under penalty of perjury, to the US District Court, District of Columbia that there is no such tape showing impact :-

www.911myths.com...

So present your evidence or stop making baseless allegations.



posted on Jun, 23 2011 @ 02:58 PM
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reply to post by Alfie1
 
"I know you are, so what am I?"



posted on Jun, 23 2011 @ 02:58 PM
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reply to post by Alfie1
 


If the tape still exists I'd like to see it, and I'm guessing millions of other folks around the world would like to see it too....They confiscated the tape, the likely destroyed it, and now we're stuck in a place where we either believe the OS or we continue to dig for the truth, I prefer to dig for the truth.... Isn't it strange that there isn't one clip today that shows a plane entering the building? Not one security camera shows the plane? That's what I question, it doesn't add up...I remember reading numerous reports that state the tape (sheraton hotel) was taken within 30 minutes of the attack, hotel staff there were terrified of what they just watched and were told to not talk about what was on the tape....

So because we have a FBI agent who swears a tape doesnt exist does that mean its true? Are you suggesting that the government never lies? What makes this agent any different? If the crash was an inside job they would definitely purje themselves to keep the lie going, thats likely the least of their worries...



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