The Truth Is In The Documents...

reply to post by Rising Against


As you put it: Nobody knows how YOU think, but what you write give me that impression, how I see you think! So either you write your target exactly by what you will achieve by finding that truth or you will be accused by being what I have write about you.

I see that you only took the sentences that you could argue with but not the ones where you had no arguments. Do you think I do care how you spend your time researching those things? Do you think people are really interreseted in your research of that decades old subject. Only thing you receive from them is "Woow awesome", "Dude you are great".... Even the people will give you some abstract ideas which could probably bring you to the UNTHINKABLE.... you will still stay on your own course, because you already have the scenario in your head, just lacking the evidences!

I love to see people searching for the truth for such ridiculous cases! The pics, the videos, the statements.... all of them shows you what? Fake assasination! That means end of story. So now you can go to party with your gals and get some real fun like JFK with MM.

With all the links above, do you really think that somebody will spend his time to investigate it. You just wanted to be the important man of the day and here you go, you deserve it: YOU ARE GREAAAAAATTTTT!!! Happy now?

Never question the sources of those youtube videos... Alright! Satan knows the truth, God hides it!


One day, when you find that truth, you will hate me for having told you that years before.

reply to post by darkl0rd

I see that you only took the sentences that you could argue with

I took the points you made and rebutted them. You're obviously now just trying to save face by claiming I only took a select few to argue and I ignored the rest. That's kind of sad.

Do you think people are really interreseted in your research of that decades old subject.

Yes I do and if you don't, then I'd appreciate you not trying to de-rail the thread. I actually worked hard to get all of these various different documents all in one place. Reason being: I want to look through them myself and I'm using this thread as a "research thread" and I figure others could benefit from having them all here as well.

You really should read the thread before you comment you know. Because if you did, you'd know I already said this.

EDIT: If you reply with just another arrogant post like every time before, I'm not going to reply again. Your intentions here are more than obvious.. Childish trolling and thread de-railing.

reply to post by darkl0rd


Mate, please, it was a great OP, with lots of resources and links provided for us to investigate. The OP are not forcing you to believe anything, merely showing you the evidence.

Do you think people are really interreseted in your research of that decades old subject.

Yes, there are still many people interested in this subject as a matter of fact.

With all the links above, do you really think that somebody will spend his time to investigate it. You just wanted to be the important man of the day and here you go, you deserve it: YOU ARE GREAAAAAATTTTT!!! Happy now?

No, he provided the links for us to go and read, and come to our own conclusions. And this statement of yours is nothing more than pure trolling.

Please, leave the thread if you are not going to discuss the topic.

vvv

Sorry for going off topic Ra.

I had read an interesting theory on how Kennedy was shot the other day and wanted to see if you were familiar with it. It made a lot of sense to me and seemed to fit the bill nicely given what can be seen in the Zapruder film.

The theory was that the Presidential limousine was fitted with either a shotgun or shaped charge which was hidden inside the car, either on the back of the front seats or the door panels of the rear of the car. This would explain the movement of JFK's head backward and the seeming angle of the fatal blast.

I have seen the damage done to both humans and animals from various large caliber weapons and it is very rare to see the kind of damage to a skull that Kennedy received. From appearances it is more consistent with the results of a close range shotgun blast with a 3- 4" spread.

Further, the limo was dismantled/destroyed within 48 hours of the assassination if their information is correct. Both Oswald and the shooter(s) from the grassy knoll were patsies/insurance for the operation.

Had you heard of this before and if so, what are your opinions?

As per your usual your thread is fantastic and sets the bar for researchers of conspiracies.
Excellent work

reply to post by Asktheanimals

Had you heard of this before and if so, what are your opinions?

Hey ATA, thanks for your post..

Pretty odd that you would bring that up to be honest because I was talking to a friend of mine through PM's no more than 3 or 4 days ago where we was talking about the JFK Assassination and he actually brought up this exact same theory you just mentioned.. This being one I've never really heard/considered before as well, admittedly.

Anyway, if I was to be completely honest, I find this theory possible but highly implausible. Reason being, everything in this case should be considered a possibility. I find it implausible though because I would imagine someone simply would've noticed if there was some sort of weaponry or just anything out of the ordinary with-in the car itself. At the very least, they would've heard the gunfire if this piece of weaponry was hidden.

Jackie Kennedy for example. John Connelly and his wife Nellie. Even the thousands of people who lined the streets in fact. But no, none of them claimed a shot from inside the car..

Taking the latter into consideration, here's a relatively recent video of the thousands of people on the streets who saw the president prior to his assassination. We can see they were surprisingly close to him.. more than close enough to look into the car.



They didn't have a perfect view of the inside of the car of course, but they could still look into it. If there was something here.. they would've noticed. And those in Dealey Plaza would've heard it..

Let's not forget as well that the majority of witnesses in Dealey Plaza itself, and from all angles, suspected the grassy knoll position. Adrian Zapruder himself in fact suspected this position and he was on the same side of the knoll. Billy Lovelady, the gentleman stood at the steps of the Texas School Book Depository building, who was eventually confused with Oswald as seen in the Altgens photo, even suspected here. And many many more as shown in these 2 images of the moments after the assassination.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/fdc595b42dea.jpg[/atsimg]

(Please Ignore the arrow.. I added it for another thread of mine where we was discussing this man)

And this image:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/c1f13cafdbc7.jpg[/atsimg]

Unfortunately, not a single witness, as far as I know anyway, suspected a shot from inside and around the car - this alone gives is reason to be suspicious a single shot could have come from here.

In regards to what we can see in the zapruder film at the fatal head shot... Well, I'm coming round to the theory that Kennedy was actually struck with 2 shots at roughly the same time here. Going from what the witnesses claimed yet again, it seems to make sense.

The warren commission was, I believe, the only source who had the shots completely spaced out. The majority of witnesses claimed to have heard 1 shot, a pause, then 2 in quick succession. And upon looking at the zapruder film, we can see Kennedy makes 2 quick movements at frame 312/313 and beyond. He moves forward suddenly, then back and to the left. The forward movement possibly coming from the same gun which caused the shot to his upper back. (I'm sure these were 2 different type of guns as well - the one which struck first being the less powerful)

The other shot however (the one which proved fatal), IMO, quite clearly comes from the right hand side - this going just from what we can see in the Zapruder film at frame 313 (Graphic image!)

I'm not sure if you have heard of this as well, but just incase not, here's a very interesting snippet from witness Gordon Arnold. He discusses what he saw on the day from his position which was in front of the grassy knoll fence. He even claims to have seen the men suspected (these 2 men also seen by witness Lee Bowers in the railyard tower whom I discussed here)

Anyway, Gordon Arnold:

Arnold was home on leave on 22nd November, 1963, and decided to take his movie camera to Dealey Plaza in order to film the visit of President John F. Kennedy. While walking by the Grassy Knoll he was stopped by a man claiming to be a member of the Secret Service. He later told Jim Marrs: "I was walking along behind this picket fence when a man in a light-colored suit came up to me and said I shouldn't be up there. I was young and cocky and I said, "Why not?" And he showed me a badge and said he was with the Secret Service and that he didn't want anyone up there. I said all right and started walking back along the fence. I could feel that he was following me and we had a few more words. I walked around to the front of the fence and found a little mound of dirt to stand on to see the motorcade."

Arnold claimed that the first shot was fired from behind him. After the firing had finished, Arnold claimed that a policeman with a gun forced him to hand over the film in his camera. Arnold returned to Fort Wainwright and was never interviewed by the Warren Commission or the House Select Committee on Assassinations about what he had seen on 22nd November, 1963.

After leaving the army Arnold became an investigator for the Dallas Department of Consumer Affairs. It was not until the summer of 1978, that Arnold decided to speak about his experiences in Dealey Plaza on 22nd July, 1963. Arnold gave an interview to Earl Goltz, a reporter with the Dallas Morning News. The article appeared on 27th July, 1978. Interviews with Arnold also appeared in Reasonable Doubt (Henry Hurt) and Crossfire (Jim Marrs).

(Source)

Here is that interview which was mentioned in the above snippet:

Further, the limo was dismantled/destroyed within 48 hours of the assassination if their information is correct.

This isn't an area that I know a great deal about so I could be mistaken here, but as far as I knew, evidence in the car was destroyed but not the car itself.

As far as I do know though, this in regards to the theory which states a gun was in the car, well, a huge crowd gathered outside Parkland hospital and around the location of where the limousine was situated - many of these individuals ending up being in a position to look into the car before being pushed back by police.

Again I would assume that If something was in the car, something resembling a weapon, we would've heard a great deal about it from someone today.

Here's a nice link giving more information on the limousine btw.

IN BROAD DAYLIGHT:
the JFK Presidential Limousine SS-100-X and the Crime of the Century

They give a nice timeline of the events also - particularly when it was cleaned thus removing some of the evidence.

Please see this link as well. If you scroll down you can see some of the secret service images of the inside of the car:

Presidential Limousine Photos.

In regards to Oswald being a patsy - I'm convinced he was. In fact, I really do believe he was working with the government in the soviet union prior to the assassination.

I tried to show why in this thread here: An Analysis Into the Mind of a Suspected Killer

reply to post by Rising Against


Look mate, no matter how you see my answer to your thread. I see that you made a hard work. I aprreciate it, good job. But what I mean is such old subjects are just too old and not verifiable anymore. Any documents could be written and told to be true by some anonymous whistleblower. It is the same thing like investigating 9/11 and awating a disclosure from the government. Or how others still debate about Jesus' life.

When a case is older than 5 years, it will be twisted and turned around hundred times, so that you will never find your way out in that document labyrinth. In the interviews people have lied so many times, once at the beginning and may be once at the end, so that they intentionally confused the case and made a maze out of it.

For some cases to investigate, when you find the truth, there must be a goal at the end. A goal that challenges something or force a major change. I just want to understand you and also people like you: what is your GOAL? So, help me to understand it. Who will benefit out of this truth? Then may be I can provide you some other help. Which truth are you behind to find out? What is your scenario about "how it was done"?

And how do you know that I have no idea what this case is all about? Calling me a troll does not close the case to understand your intention and goals! Sure, you can reject to answer or give an explanation and get something for it! Isnt that what you are looking for?

reply to post by darkl0rd

Any documents could be written and told to be true by some anonymous whistleblower. It is the same thing like investigating 9/11 and awating a disclosure from the government. Or how others still debate about Jesus' life.

I appreciate what you're saying, but, and as I said in the beginning paragraphs of this thread, I'm a strong believer that the only way in which we'll find any truth to this case is via documentation as opposed to analysis of any of the films, or anything of that nature even.

After all, the truth is all I want here..

Great information really can be found in some of the documents I have already added also - the 1990 release centered around the autopsy for example - Which I mentioned briefly in this post earlier on today.

Please don't get me wrong though, I'm not some recluse waiting for the next big release expecting some great and mind blowing information to be presented because that's just silly. But like I said, I just think the one way in which we'll really achieve some truth is via document release thus why I thought it might be a nice idea to open up this thread and see where the discussion leads.

what is your GOAL?

To tell you the truth, I've looked into the JFK assassination case just less than a year now.. I was looking into it as I wanted to find something new and interesting to research. So, I ended up looking into the case a great deal and then subsequently writing this thread here.

Ever since then I've researched the case. Why? Simply because I'm absolutely convinced a conspiracy almost certainly did take place here and over the years, we've been lied to. Something I feel in unfair. So, I guess I've found the case a fascinating one and I then wanted to learn more and more about it to discover what really did happen..

What can be achieved from breaking the case? Personally, I doubt it'll change the world that much at all.. but even so, and again like I said, I find this case fascinating and I just want to understand what really did happen in 1963. I guess It's a "personal pursuit".

It really is as simple as that. I find the case interesting therefore I research it when I have the chance.

This is why I continually start these threads.. I want to discuss the case, I want to learn more about it. I want to share what I already know etc. etc.

Calling me a troll does not close the case to understand your intention and goals!

With all due respect, but the impression I got from reading your previous posts was trolling. I mean, I did find some of your comments quite rude after all. Apologies if I offended you though, but please understand I thought you was trying to attack me and attack me for no reason that I could see.

If you want to learn about my intentions and goals etc. You should should just ask me like you did in your previous post.

That being so, I do thank you for your post here.

reply to post by Rising Against


Thank you for that very informative response!

You answered my questions and then some

I think I can safely discard that theory now.

Rest assured one thing though - the fatal bullet (wherever it came from) was a hollow point.

What type of bullets were supposedly in the Mannlicher carbine Oswald used?

I am still trying to wrap my head around bits of Oswalds interrogation. For the life of me I dont understand how a man can be in the process of being investigated by the FBI yet noone seemed concerned enough to keep tabs on him knowing the President was coming to town?

Furthermore, surely they knew where he worked as well. So was the change in the Presidents route changed not only to put him in the crosshairs but to also take him past his patsy?

If this isnt a conspiracy on the part of the FBI then at the least its a serious lapse in judgement

reply to post by Asktheanimals

I think I can safely discard that theory now.

Yeah, personally I just really can't get past the fact no witnesses claimed a shot came from inside or around the car. There's no doubt someone, just anyone, would've seen something if It did happen. After all, literally all eyes were on the president at this time. This is one of the main reasons why I can't ever buy the theory Greer, or even Jackie, fired a shot like some claim.

It's funny, the fact no one said anything at all tell's us more than we need to know here.

Oh, and since you mentioned the Zapruder film in the last post - particularly the way in which the fatal shot affected JFK, have you ever heard of the Storm Drain theory by any chance? It's not a theory I personally believe in, but It's an interesting one to read up on still.

Here's a really good ATS thread in the Jim Marrs forum - there's some great info on this theory here, you might like the read..

Two questions for Jim Marrs: The "sewer" shot and was JFK Jr. assassinated?



Like I said, It's really not a theory I believe in, but It's an interesting one to ponder over especially in regards to the fatal shot and how it caused the head to react in the way it did.

What type of bullets were supposedly in the Mannlicher carbine Oswald used?

According to the Warren Commission a bullet was (conveniently) left in the 6.5 mm Carcano-type Model 91/38 rifle owned by Oswald under the name "A. Hidell"

Here's an image of that gun:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/d54dbefcfcc9.gif[/atsimg]

Here's an official image of the bullet itself:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/576e0700a3dc.jpg[/atsimg]

CE-141, or Warren Commission Exhibit 141, the unfired 6.5x52 mm round of ammunition left in the assassination rifle above.

(Interesting wikipedia page discussing this)

And for anyone else interested, here's the revolver Oswald was seemingly prepared to use in the theater he was arrested in (also bought under the name A. Hidell):

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/a261c0b1cf21.jpg[/atsimg]

Thanks for the links to the "sewer shot" thread.
That's new to me and seems to have some plausibility.
It seems the more some idea is ridiculed the closer it is to the truth.

The FMJ bullet from a Mannlicher carbine shot from the TSBD would not do the kind of damage seen to JFK's head.
Wrong angle, wrong bullet type and caliber.

reply to post by Asktheanimals

Thanks for the links to the "sewer shot" thread.

Personally, I'm not so sure about it as a theory but it seems to fit the reaction of Kennedy when the fatal shot struck quite nicely according to many thus why It's considered a real possibility. The fact it's undergone so much renovation over the years isn't helping people forget about it anytime soon as well.

Like I said, It's not one I believe in, but It's certainly a theory worth looking into a lot further still.

It seems the more some idea is ridiculed the closer it is to the truth.

Not unless It's the "William Greer was a potential shooter" theory. That theory really is frustrating to hear actually.

It can easily be debunked with 1 single zoomed in, and enhanced, image of the potential weapons as well.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/e3ab90b0e048.gif[/atsimg]

As can be seen... the glare from the sun is what we can see, not the shine from a gun like many claim.

Anyway, this is just such a frustrating theory to hear.. I'll try and debunk it whenever I can so thanks for giving me a small window of opportunity to do so there as well.

Wrong angle, wrong bullet type and caliber.

Well, I don't know much about guns myself to be honest, In regards to the angle though.. well, I'm certain a much more suitable shooting position is from the 3rd floor of the Dal-Tex Building as opposed to the Texas School Book Depository Building (although this is a possible shooting position still - It just doesn't make sense that any of the bullets fired from here actually struck anyone).

Here's an image online of the 2 buildings from the position JFK was shot. You can see just how close the 2 buildings are to each other from this angle here. It's a lot closer than most people seem to realize:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/91d1c09e82ed.jpg[/atsimg]

(I'd prefer a better image than this one but I guess It'll have to wait until I go to dealey plaza myself, lol )

Anyway, when taking into consideration the first, the final shot, the most plausible candidate is seemingly the Dal-Tex building and by far. This building was even heavily suspected on the day of the assassination by many of the officers on the ground, as well as the knoll and the TSDB of course.

I won't go into this in too much detail but 1 "professional criminal" was in fact arrested in this building, It was Jim Braden - a gentleman whom changed his story continuously, a person who was arrested on the third floor itself (this being near the snipers nest here) and a gentleman who was previously thrown out of Dallas by none other than Bill Decker.

Please see this video if you have the time though. It goes into detail on the angles of the shots, the building, and Jim Braden as a potential shooter also. The back wound is also discussed in a bit more detail.



It's a really interesting watch.

For the benefit of the thread, here's an interesting "short snippet" on Braden:

Eugene Hale Brading (also known as James Lee and Jim Braden) developed a long criminal record while living in California. Arrested 35 times he had convictions for burglary, illegal bookmaking and embezzlement.

On 21st November, 1963, Brading arrived in Dallas with a man named Morgan Brown. They stayed in Suite 301 of the Cabana Motel. Later that day Brading visited the offices of Texas oil billionaire Haroldson L. Hunt. It is believed that Jack Ruby was in the offices at the same time as Brading.

After the assassination of John F. Kennedy, Brading was arrested and taken in for interrogation because he had been "acting suspiciously" in the Dal-Tex Building, overlooking Dealey Plaza. Brading told the police he was in Dallas on oil business and had gone into the building to make a phone call. Brading was released without charge.

Brading returned to his room at the Cabana Motel. It was later established that Jack Ruby visited the motel around midnight.

In his book, The Kennedy Conspiracy, Anthony Summers shows that Brading had links with Carlos Marcello, Santos Trafficante and David Ferrie.

In 1968 Brading was interviewed by the Los Angeles Police Department because of his presence in Los Angeles on the night that Robert Kennedy was murdered.

(Source)

Braden was with-in one mile of Robert Kennedy when he was assassinated also. Whether this is significant in anyway, who knows, I certainly don't, but It's an odd coincidence at least.

Great post my friend

"JFK" file is placed on FBI's Records.You can see clearly on JFK's Jr.For more info :-

vault.fbi.gov...

reply to post by solid007


Hey there solid007, great link!

Some of the key mafia players in the JFK case are listed here, as well as a few others connected in various other ways as well. Here's a list of some of the ones I recognized for anyone else interested:

Clyde A. Tolson

Fidel Castro

John F. Kennedy Jr.

Joseph P. (Joe) Kennedy, Sr.

Jimmy Hoffa

John (Handsome Johnny) Roselli

J. Edgar Hoover

- J. Edgar Hoover Appointment and Phone Logs

Lyndon B. Johnson

Marilyn Monroe

Robert F. Kennedy

- Robert F Kennedy (Assassination)

I'm surprised Carlos Marcello or Santo Trafficante are on this list admittedly but oh well.

Originally posted by Rising Against
reply to post by darkl0rd

 

Thanks for your post but really, I hate that attitude to things - It's absolutely pointless.

You're practically saying we should just give it up already and move on with our lives.. in other words, you're saying we should happily just let people get away with murder here - murder of the president of a country might I add.

And this wasn't even 50 years ago still.

Anyway, as I've said to people in the past, you should feel free to give up your search for the truth in this case, but I know for sure I certainly won't. I feel this case is just too important to ignore and I think we deserve to know what really happened here.

Good for you!
I too, hate that attitude.

I think the pure dedication and hard work you`ve put into the death of Kennedy is second to none.
I`m still watching the videos you`ve posted on ATS about the case and i`m really enjoying the research.

This thread alone, is going to keep a lot of dedicated researchers busy for a long time, which hopefully will lead to something new.
I`ll certainly be making a start on the information you`ve shared in this thread and i truly hope that if and when someone finds anything that you are at least given some credit.

BUMP

because this thread deserves a lot more recognition then this.
do it justice ATS!

i cant stand the fact some looney prediction threads get more flags then something of this calibre.
does NOT make sense.

once again.

BUMPERDEBUMPBUMP!

reply to post by kn0wh0w


Thanks for the kind words, I don't mind that this thread "died" though. I was primarily using it as a research tool anyway, which means I was coming back to it from time to time to go through some of the stuff I added in the OP.

Hopefully some others were as well, and if so, my job is done.

I was in third grade when this happened. I will never forget the nun coming in crying and telling our teacher what happened. My parents were devastated by this. They bought a book about it, I believe it was called 'Four Days'. I will have to ask my father about that book.
I for one would like to know who did it and why.
You have given MUCH reading material for the next several weeks/months. Thank you Rising Against!

snrRog

reply to post by snrRog

They bought a book about it, I believe it was called 'Four Days'. I will have to ask my father about that book.

'Four Days in November' perhaps? Either way, I hope you ask him, I'd love to know which it was. I need a new one to read myself.

I for one would like to know who did it and why.

Who knows who did it for sure. Personally I blame Lyndon Johnson, with help from the likes of Hoover and maybe meyers, as being the top conspirator and I'm edging towards Jim Braden being one of the potential shooters (maybe from the Dal-Tex building).. but, again, who knows for sure. I'm not convinced of anyone else being a definitive shooter at this point in time anyway.

I also believe Robert Kennedy was the main reason John had to die. After all, why "get rid of" Bobby and face the wrath of the administration when getting rid of John first get's rid of them both at the same time? Killing 2 birds with 1 stone if you will. After Bobby went for the presidency years later, he himself was gunned down anyway.

I certainly don't believe Oswald was in any position to shoot Kennedy though. In fact, I really tried to show why in this thread here, you might like the read: An Analysis Into the Mind of a Suspected Killer

Hi Rising Against,

'Four Days in November' perhaps? Either way, I hope you ask him, I'd love to know which it was. I need a new one to read myself.

I believe you are right with that title. I remember it was white, and my brothers and myself handled it with care to keep it white, to avoid the wrath of my mother! I believe there was a picture in the middle of the cover, but can't for the life of me remember what the picture is.
I just called my dad, got his voice mail. On a Tuesday, the only thing I can think of is that he is out gallivanting with his woman friend. Bless his soul, he is 84! I'm sure he still has it, unless my oldest bro swiped it. I'll find out.

Thank you for the links, I haven't checked them yet, have family things to do now, but will peruse them after I get kids up to bed.

Thanks again,

snrRog