Huge Bitcoin sell off due to a compromised Mt. Gox account - rollback

reply to post by ChaoticOrder

But what about the mining aspect? That can't be hacked to produce BCs in 1/20th of the time as normal? I think it can.
Again, not trying to argue, just to understand. I've talked to the most computer savvy folks I know, and have yet to find any satisfactory answers.

reply to post by yellowbeard

The only reason any currency is viable is because everybody agrees that it has a perceived value

Precisely. Bitcoin has value because people have agreed it is a viable form of currency and can be used to trade assets.

reply to post by subject x

But what about the mining aspect? That can't be hacked to produce BCs in 1/20th of the time as normal? I think it can.

Mining is even less exploitable. Everyone is subject to a certain degree of difficulty when mining for Bitcoins. If one person hacked it and changed the difficulty, then everyone would be mining at that difficulty level, and the BTC would still get evenly dispersed, just at a much faster rate. It's throttled so that 21 million BTC will exist by the year 2140. I think that will be the maximum amount of Bitcoins able to exist.

EDIT: But you also have to understand that mining works off advanced types of encryption. Unless someone was able to literally crack certain encryptions faster than what is technically viable, it wont happen. And if someone does manage to reverse engineer prime numbers and security encryptions, then we'll have a lot more to worry about than Bitcoin failing.

Originally posted by ChaoticOrder
Just because it is "virtual" doesn't make it less valuable than real physical money which you can hold. .

sure it does because I can walk outside and spend it. a million bitcoins in my virtual wallet would be useless to me as I cannot buy anything I want, or need, with them. When I'm in the market for tee shirts, contraband and chemicals, perhaps they'll have value to me but, for now, they are nothing more than a means of transacting without a paper trail and that, to me, is a design set up for illegal commerce.

Originally posted by ChaoticOrder
And all money is actually stamped with various codes and numbers which are stored on computers.

there's no record of the cash in my pocket, beyond my personal memory. the only way for the money in my pocket to be taken would be via mugging, accident or stupidity. there's no virus out there that can take my cash from me, there's no hacker that can shut down my pocket, making it impossible for me to retrieve my money.

Originally posted by ChaoticOrder
Bitcoins could easily be stored on electronic cards. The advantage is that it's an electronic commodity, unlike normal money which can continually be injected into the money pool.

there are, clearly, issues in the safety of this currency, as has been evidenced by the Mt Gox issue and the trojan that is designed to steal your money. Also, you can carry all the plastic you want, if you cannot use bitcoins in the world beyond the internet, the cards are pointless.

This whole thing sounds like a neat idea but the limitations are concerning. What happens with the whole 21 million is mined, everyone who was in the thing got their piece and start spending it. Companies start making bitcoins off all the people that got them and eventually everyone uses up their bitcoins and the companies that offered things for bitcoins have them all........then what?
If the 21 million is gone (through mining and lost bitcoins) does the value still hold from the last coin mined? What do these companies do with 21 million bitcoins solely in their possession and how do they profit from it at the end of the day? It seems kind of complicated when I start to think of these things.

Originally posted by ChaoticOrder
If one person hacked it and changed the difficulty, then everyone would be mining at that difficulty level, and the BTC would still get evenly dispersed, just at a much faster rate.

So BCs are all created by the same central location, with other places/computers interfacing with it?
If this is true, then it seems the guy(s) who own the server/software could manipulate it any way they wanted to, with just their word that they won't.

Maybe it's my lack of programming knowledge that keeps me from seeing what is obvious to others. I've been reading a lot about BCs lately, and I'm still not seeing the attraction. As far as I can tell, digital money can be manipulated by a smart hacker with plenty of computing power at his disposal.

reply to post by Crakeur

sure it does because I can walk outside and spend it. a million bitcoins in my virtual wallet would be useless to me as I cannot buy anything I want, or need, with them. When I'm in the market for tee shirts, contraband and chemicals, perhaps they'll have value to me but, for now, they are nothing more than a means of transacting without a paper trail and that, to me, is a design set up for illegal commerce.

You can buy much more than tee shirts and contraband. And the more it gets recognized, the more uses it will have. You are trying to say a new technology is useless, essentially because it's so new. People need understand it could be used to exchange any assets, just like any other currency, if only accepted wide enough, and not simply dismissed as you are doing. there are too many benefits to throw it away, and people know that.

there's no record of the cash in my pocket, beyond my personal memory. the only way for the money in my pocket to be taken would be via mugging, accident or stupidity. there's no virus out there that can take my cash from me, there's no hacker that can shut down my pocket, making it impossible for me to retrieve my money.

There are actually ATM hacks which can steal your money, but again, that is plastic cards. Physical cash can still be stolen, you could indeed be mugged. You can't encrypt the money in your pocket either, making it virtually useless to thieves, and even to viruses. And once your physical money gets stolen, you don't have a back-up of it which you may be able to transfer into another wallet quickly enough, making the stolen funds invalid. And At least there are records of every Bitcoin payment, you make it clear how easy physical cash could be used for illegal payments, without any traceable route.

there are, clearly, issues in the safety of this currency, as has been evidenced by the Mt Gox issue and the trojan that is designed to steal your money. Also, you can carry all the plastic you want, if you cannot use bitcoins in the world beyond the internet, the cards are pointless.

Mt. Gox is an independent website used for trading Bitcoins, and there are many others, it is not actually a part of Bitcoin, or needed for Bitcoin to function. It is their fault, and does not prove Bitcoin is insecure. And one little trojan is nothing, I'm sure there will be many others. But it's nothing to worry about if you have half a brain and know how to protect your PC properly, as well as your digital wallet. The chances of getting your wallet stolen in that situation is near nothing.

reply to post by topherman420

This whole thing sounds like a neat idea but the limitations are concerning. What happens with the whole 21 million is mined, everyone who was in the thing got their piece and start spending it. Companies start making bitcoins off all the people that got them and eventually everyone uses up their bitcoins and the companies that offered things for bitcoins have them all........then what?

You're over thinking things. First of all. The companies wouldn't simply store up all the Bitcoins, that's not how businesses work in reality. They would have a constant inflow and outflow of Bitcoins used to pay for business expenses. And they wouldn't simply store up all their profit, share holders and employees would be spending their Bitcoins also.

If the 21 million is gone (through mining and lost bitcoins) does the value still hold from the last coin mined? What do these companies do with 21 million bitcoins solely in their possession and how do they profit from it at the end of the day? It seems kind of complicated when I start to think of these things.

No one would ever own them all, as I explained. And even if a few entities managed to gain and then withhold a large amount of Bitcoins, the value of Bitcoin would adjust according to the total size of the remaining money pool, proportional to demand. Bitcoin has a precision of 8 decimal places, so even with a small amount of Bitcoins in existence, it can still adjust accordingly (they will also get lost over time).

reply to post by subject x

So BCs are all created by the same central location, with other places/computers interfacing with it?
If this is true, then it seems the guy(s) who own the server/software could manipulate it any way they wanted to, with just their word that they won't.

I was waiting for you to get to that, and to be honest, I don't know enough about the technicalities to tell you that. However, I would guesstimate that, yes, the creators do have the ability to exploit Bitcoin a lot easier than anyone else, but the degree to which they can exploit it is not known to me. I have watched several interviews with the Bitcoin creators and programmers, and they seem like fairly genuine and sincere characters. But if the difficulty level is generated on a P2P level, according to the amount of miners etc, then the difficulty factor may have to be verified in a similar way to payments, making it free from exploitation by anyone.

reply to post by ChaoticOrder


Okay, so there will be constant flow of bitcoins (ideally I suppose) though limited, and this is better then normal currency how? It seems to promote greed even more then our paper money does today. Because of the limited amount and everyones perceived value of them, won't hoarding these coins be detrimental to the blossoming economy they were designed for (can't really say what the true intentions were of making this bitcoin thing)? All I can see is alot of greed coming out of this personally.

Originally posted by ChaoticOrder
I have watched several interviews with the Bitcoin creators and programmers, and they seem like fairly genuine and sincere characters.

So does every good con man. That's my main problem with BCs, my lack of trust in people in general.

I guess I'll keep on looking into them, and wait to see how they turn out in the long run. Since the only thing I buy online is yo-yos, and, as yet, I can't use BCs for them, I don't have a need for digital currency at this point.

Thanks for trying to answer my questions, though. You've been most cordial, and tolerant of my ignorance in this area.

reply to post by topherman420

Okay, so there will be constant flow of bitcoins (ideally I suppose) though limited, and this is better then normal currency how? It seems to promote greed even more then our paper money does today. Because of the limited amount and everyones perceived value of them, won't hoarding these coins be detrimental to the blossoming economy they were designed for

1) It's better because you don't need to rely on a middle-man for transaction, you can make virtually instant transactions, 24/7, any day of the week, to anywhere in the world. It is a commodity, like gold, without a central issuing entity that can control generation. Your accounts can't be frozen and it's a lot harder for big brother to spy on your every transaction.

2) It promotes fairness and equality through a currency that can't be Government issued or controlled. Even if some entities were to save large volumes of Bitcoins, as I explained, the remaining money pool is able to adjust accordingly, and it would be over a long period of time. The real damage would come after they dumped a massive amount of Bitcoins back into the money pool all at once.

Originally posted by Crakeur
reply to post by yellowbeard

 

I don't make my living off this site. I'm just grounded in reality. It's fantasy money that cannot be used in a real society to purchase necessities such as rent and the fact that someone can creat a virus to steal your precious WoW money makes it that much less desireable.

There are a plenty of ways to protect your real money and there are systems in place to protect individuals from theft of real money, such as insurance. Try filing a claim with the FDIC or the police when someone steals your platinum and your +3 sword of ogre slaying.

sfbay.craigslist.org...

reply to post by mayabong


Wow, now that is pretty cool. Good find dude.

reply to post by mayabong


I need to move my office to SF. That's the cheapest commercial space I've ever seen. No wonder they take pogs. It's not like they're getting anything for the space anyway.

By the way, when I say rent, I do mean home, residence etc. Not everyone has to pay for commercial space. It's surprising nonetheless. I didn't think anyone was insane enough to accept bitcoins for a legit business. I was, clearly, wrong although I wouldn't be surprised to find out that the owner of said property was using those bitcoins for something somewhat less legit.

reply to post by Crakeur

although I wouldn't be surprised to find out that the owner of said property was using those bitcoins for something somewhat less legit.

I bet they are just investing in Bitcoins. They seem like they have money to spare. It doesn't always have to be something illegal. I'm going to use any Bitcoins I earn for day to day stuff (by converting it into regular dollars first obviously, but I will buy the stuff that I can with Bitcoins). If Bitcoins were to become widely used and accepted due to their clear benefits, then you could hardly claim that everyone using them is a criminal.

reply to post by Crakeur


I hear ya, and understand your skepticism. I myself am a gold and silver person, but I do mine bitcoins on the side. I say give it time and see what happens. If I lived in San Fran that office seems like a great place to set up a mining operation. I'm sure you'd have to work out some electricity issues, maybe they'd let you pay that in bitcoins too?????? lol

According to google, San Fran is the top city that searches for bitcoins in the US. The US is the #4 country after Russia, Sweden and Finland I believe.

There have been other crazy currencies throught the ages such as talley sticks and they seemed to work ok. I think its time to rethink what currency is and what it can be. People say gold is great cause it has intrinsic value. Maybe so, but only because we've been taught that. To native people's back in the day gold was just another rock and thought whitey was crazy over his lust for the object.

You know that real estate ad looks a little shady - way too cheap a rent for that type of office and for that location...

Just doing a little due diligence also turns up some less than savory details on the person named in that ad - a Facebook page of a less-than-professional person, and a inmate arrest record for Washoe county.

The fact is, there are shady deals listed through Craigslist all the time, not saying that this one is for a fact "shady", but I wouldn't simply accept it at face value. Scammers could easily be asking for deposits made in Bitcoin for property they don't own and will vanish without a trace when you and about 50 other tenants show up to move in.

reply to post by Blackmarketeer

there are shady deals listed through Craigslist all the time

Craigslist has nothing to do with Bitcoin. The simple fact is, as we have demonstrated, Bitcoin has been accepted by many people as a viable currency and can in fact be used to make payments for expensive physical assets. Just because it is new and every single website doesn't accept it, does not mean it wont grow into something more useful.

reply to post by Blackmarketeer


Maybe so, just something i came across while browsing craigslist. Good Detective work.