the hole in the pentagon..is the big hole in the 911 story

Originally posted by SkepticAndBeliever

I never said I was an expert, I listen to the experts, and the scientific community rejects conspiracy theory claims made by pseudoscience loons of the "truth" movement.Period.

" The mainstream scientific community does not support the controlled demolition hypothesis and U.S. officials, mainstream journalists, and mainstream researchers have concluded that only al-Qaeda was involved in the attacks."

Hi SAB

You shouldn't trust the MSM just my opinion.

SAB please explain how this is possible, you may ask your experts.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/f408cc35d332.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/4b7c3d82d599.jpg[/atsimg]

Originally posted by userid1


I'm sorry - this is now the third request to keep the discussion limited to the Pentagon and flight # 77. All my responses have been limited to that, and in the interest of clarity - perhaps yours should be as well.

Until I hear differently, I will assume that the items I read about how they deduced which were the hijackers remains of the pentagon plane still stands.

Whether or not you wish to take into consideration the other 3 flights while discussing this is pointless.
If the FBI is claiming they got DNA from rental cars and hotels to compare with the hijackers, and you dismiss it, although it is relevant; yet still have no questions about the holes in the story from the Pentagon, than you are wasting everyone's time. You have no desire to find out the truth. The official explanation given to you by the government should suffice you.

However, upon further research I came across this gem.

Why did the FBI provide no DNA samples to the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology to make comparisons to the remains from the other crash sites? Why did the FBI only have DNA samples for the alleged NY ten? Why was the FBI so slow in cooperating with the OCME in any way when they were in fact under fire in the public eye of the attacks for their lack of cooperation with other government and intelligence agencies? One would think the FBI would be bending over backwards to appease. Instead it looks more like they were looking for a fix to create a distraction. They got both by way of the OCME positively identifying terrorists with DNA that has no documented accession before it arrived at the OCME.

Since the Armed Forces Ins. of Pathology was who was responsible for determining the identity of the bodies for the Pentagon crash...this raises an interesting question.
Why would the FBI NOT turn over collected DNA to them. And if they didnt have any, what stopped them from obtaining it?
Hmmm.

There we go....thank you for showing yet ANOTHER HOLE in this story.

Originally posted by DIDtm

However, upon further research I came across this gem.

Why did the FBI provide no DNA samples to the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology to make comparisons to the remains from the other crash sites? Why did the FBI only have DNA samples for the alleged NY ten? Why was the FBI so slow in cooperating with the OCME in any way when they were in fact under fire in the public eye of the attacks for their lack of cooperation with other government and intelligence agencies? One would think the FBI would be bending over backwards to appease. Instead it looks more like they were looking for a fix to create a distraction. They got both by way of the OCME positively identifying terrorists with DNA that has no documented accession before it arrived at the OCME.

Since the Armed Forces Ins. of Pathology was who was responsible for determining the identity of the bodies for the Pentagon crash...this raises an interesting question.
Why would the FBI NOT turn over collected DNA to them. And if they didnt have any, what stopped them from obtaining it?
Hmmm.

There we go....thank you for showing yet ANOTHER HOLE in this story.

edit on 22-6-2011 by DIDtm because: (no reason given)

Oh yeah, that's one gem of a polished turd you've got there...

"Investigators have identified remains of 184 people who were aboard American Airlines Flight 77 or inside the Pentagon, including those of the five hijackers, but they say it is impossible to match what is left with the five missing people.
A team of more than 100 workers at a military morgue at Dover Air Force Base in Delaware used several methods to identify remains but primarily relied on DNA testing and dental records. The fifth unidentified victim was a passenger on the hijacked plane.
The remains of the five hijackers have been identified through a process of exclusion, as they did not match DNA samples contributed by family members of all 183 victims who died at the site." - Washington Post (11/21/01)

This is from a truther web site btw - thewebfairy.com...

To reiterate - process of elimination as the DNA *didn't* match samples contributed by family members. Kind of suggests that DNA was provided by the FBI - doesn't it?

Further - *your* external quote states:

Why did the FBI provide no DNA samples to the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology to make comparisons to the remains from the other crash sites?

Seriously??? Possibly because a dead hijacker can only be at one crash site at a time maybe?

I'm still waiting to hear a "hole". You've not mentioned the biggest "hole" in the OS - wonder why that is?

I admit I could only get through the first seven pages of this thread before my head started spinning and my eyes became blurry, so I apologize if this is pointed out elsewhere: That is, that the skeptics often ignore that there has already been proven lying by those officials who helped to bring the OS into being (see below).

The Washington Post: 9/11 Panel Suspected Deception by Pentagon

“We to this day don't know why NORAD [the North American Aerospace Command] told us what they told us," said Thomas H. Kean, the former New Jersey Republican governor who led the commission. "It was just so far from the truth. . . . It's one of those loose ends that never got tied.” Although the commission's landmark report made it clear that the Defense Department's early versions of events on the day of the attacks were inaccurate, the revelation that it considered criminal referrals reveals how skeptically those reports were viewed by the panel and provides a glimpse of the tension between it and the Bush administration.

my bolding

Review of senior counsel to the 9/11 Commission John Farmer’s book.
NYTimes: The Lies They Told

Farmer scrutinizes F.A.A. and Norad records to provide irrefragable evidence that a day after a Sept. 17 White House briefing, both agencies suddenly altered their chronologies to produce a coherent timeline and story that “fit together nicely with the account provided publicly by Deputy Defense Secretary Wolfowitz and Vice President Cheney.”

my bolding

I know this is dealt with elsewhere on ATS, but those who worship the OS as sacrosanct and view all other viewpoints as being held by ignorant simpletons would do well to ponder some of the less convenient "known knowns."

Where there are lies, there is smoke. Where there is smoke....

Has anyone posted this before? I had it copy/pasted in an old word document, got it from somewhere years ago, but do not where I got it from, or where it was sourced from, who posted it, etc. Can anyone verify?

The Pentagon conducts the first of two training exercises called MASCAL, which simulates a Boeing 757 crashing into the building.

Charles Burlingame, an ex-Navy F4 pilot who worked in the Pentagon, participates in this exercise before retiring to take a job at American Airlines, where, less than a year later, his Boeing 757 allegedly crashes into the building.

www.usatoday.com...

"In a third scenario, the target was the Pentagon — but that drill was not run after Defense officials said it was unrealistic, NORAD and Defense officials say."

What happened at the Pentagon to the best of my knowledge is this: At 8:20am EDT, Flight 77 (the decoy) took off from Dulles International Airport is to be involved in a drill (Global Guardian '01) demonstrating the anti-hijacking system -- the Boeing Uninterruptible Autopilot -- Canada was selling the USA. The goal of the drill ... to successfully, electronically "hijack" Flight 77 then land it safely to a predetermined location.

It involved two teams -- red team attackers and blue team defenders. The "target" of this drill is simulating a 757 crashing into the Pentagon. Flight 77 was a member of red team attackers acting as the "suicide plane." The blue team defenders were inside the Pentagon.

At 8:54am EDT, in the vicinity of Wright-Patterson Air Force Base (which happened to be participating in the Global Guardian '01 war game,) red team "hijacks" Flight 77 electronically by the Boeing Uninterruptible Autopilot through KU bandwidth via Wide Area Augmentation System and starts to head south then east.

Red team turns Flight 77's transponder off at 8:56am EDT.

As Flight 77 heads back east, while in Wright-Patterson Air Force Base airspace, a drone (a Raytheon A-3 Skywarrior in American Airlines 757 colors,) rendezvous behind Flight 77. Minutes later red team takes Flight 77 out and over Warning Area 386 (W-386) airspace and remotely detonates it.

The drone takes the place of the decoy (Flight 77.)

Blue team is oblivious to the fact that red team switched planes. Thinking it was Flight 77, the plane got within three minutes of the Pentagon. Captain Gerald DeConto, a member of blue team, recognized that a double-cross had taken place as Flight 77 (really the drone,) was supposed to turn around fly back to land at a specific location.

At around 9:37am EDT, DeConto was on the phone with Secretary of the Navy Gordon R. England attempting to get permission to launch defensive weapon(s) to defeat the A-3 as an AGM-12C missile flew through his window of the US Naval Command Center followed by the drone killing him instantly.

reply to post by notonsamepage


i was looking for that very video earlier on youtube, or a similar one that i had seen earlier. the explosion taking place in the same frame the "plane's" nose is visible.

i doubt anyone will respond. good evidence is hard to deal with.

If the damage to the pentagon was not done by an aircraft, why does the smoke have a wing tip vortices in it ?

reply to post by waypastvne


I got 2 explanations.

1. Since this video show the magic smoke, the whole judicial watch video loose alot of credibility.

2. Or, the magic smoke could be from a missile AND a smaller 1 engine plane, punching a hole, making sure that thing goes inside like a hot knife in butter.

Originally posted by userid1

Originally posted by DIDtm

However, upon further research I came across this gem.

Why did the FBI provide no DNA samples to the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology to make comparisons to the remains from the other crash sites? Why did the FBI only have DNA samples for the alleged NY ten? Why was the FBI so slow in cooperating with the OCME in any way when they were in fact under fire in the public eye of the attacks for their lack of cooperation with other government and intelligence agencies? One would think the FBI would be bending over backwards to appease. Instead it looks more like they were looking for a fix to create a distraction. They got both by way of the OCME positively identifying terrorists with DNA that has no documented accession before it arrived at the OCME.

Since the Armed Forces Ins. of Pathology was who was responsible for determining the identity of the bodies for the Pentagon crash...this raises an interesting question.
Why would the FBI NOT turn over collected DNA to them. And if they didnt have any, what stopped them from obtaining it?
Hmmm.

There we go....thank you for showing yet ANOTHER HOLE in this story.

edit on 22-6-2011 by DIDtm because: (no reason given)

Oh yeah, that's one gem of a polished turd you've got there...

"Investigators have identified remains of 184 people who were aboard American Airlines Flight 77 or inside the Pentagon, including those of the five hijackers, but they say it is impossible to match what is left with the five missing people.
A team of more than 100 workers at a military morgue at Dover Air Force Base in Delaware used several methods to identify remains but primarily relied on DNA testing and dental records. The fifth unidentified victim was a passenger on the hijacked plane.
The remains of the five hijackers have been identified through a process of exclusion, as they did not match DNA samples contributed by family members of all 183 victims who died at the site." - Washington Post (11/21/01)

This is from a truther web site btw - thewebfairy.com...

To reiterate - process of elimination as the DNA *didn't* match samples contributed by family members. Kind of suggests that DNA was provided by the FBI - doesn't it?

Further - *your* external quote states:

Why did the FBI provide no DNA samples to the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology to make comparisons to the remains from the other crash sites?

Seriously??? Possibly because a dead hijacker can only be at one crash site at a time maybe?

I'm still waiting to hear a "hole". You've not mentioned the biggest "hole" in the OS - wonder why that is?

Im afraid, yet not completely surprised that you misinterpreted what was being implied.
The article was saying that the FBI did NOT turn over any DNA from the 'hijackers', not no DNA comparisons at all.
It went on to state that only DNA from the 10 'hijackers' from the 2 planes in NY were used in comparison.

I have no idea why I try to discuss things with others who cannot comprehend what they read.
How does that saying go....insane is the definition of doing the same thing over and over expecting different results?

reply to post by DIDtm

You said:

The article was saying that the FBI did NOT turn over any DNA from the 'hijackers', not no DNA comparisons at all

My article said:

The remains of the five hijackers have been identified through a process of exclusion, as they did not match DNA samples contributed by family members of all 183 victims who died at the site." - Washington Post (11/21/01)

Explain how it's possible to have a negative DNA match with no DNA? The FBI HAD to have provided DNA samples of the hijackers to Military Mortuary Affairs in Dover in order to get a negative match against the family members DNA.

You do understand that it was Military Mortuary Affairs, and NOT the FBI that did the DNA matching - right?

Sorry, I think it's you who has misinterpreted what was being said.

Flight 77 hits the ground before it hits the Pentagon, wings shear off and burn up outside the building. The fuselage (and potentially another dense object?) penetrate the building.

Impact with the ground breaks the wings off.

The fuselage can penetrate the 18 inch outer wall, but the wings end up resting against the outer wall and being aluminum, they pretty much vaporize after the fire. The wings still shatter the outer wall but do not have the energy cross section to penetrate. A long bullet can penetrate an object when all the mass is inline with the direction of impact, but when the same bullet hits sideways it may not penetrate

There also may have been a dense object in the cargo hold which then punched through to the 3rd ring wall. It may have been just that, legitimate heavy dense cargo. A non spinning jet engine is dense. A powered engine rotationally disintegrates (flies apart) when it impacts.

This points out that the piloting skills on this plane were not the best.

Flight 11 hits the North Tower dead center at near maximum speed, no one above the impact point escapes.
Flight 175 has to bank sharply to hit the south tower.
Flight 77 hits the ground before it hits the Pentagon, wings shear off and burn up outside the building. The fuselage (and potentially another object?) penetrate the building.
Flight 93 hits a field in Pennsylvania.

Flight 11 is the important one, all the others can fail but this one. Also some of their people realized that our Air Force might catch the later planes.

The person who flew flight 11 was skilled. The person who flew flight 11 was probably not Mohammed Atta!

While their are a lot of issues with some of the events surrounding the Pentagon, I think that the impact damage is consistent with bad piloting skills. If the pilot had NOT hit the ground first, the wings may well have made it through the outer wall.

I am not saying that there was not a coverup at this scene, such as evidence for a false Flag operation, but that the simplest explanation for the type of hole present is consistent with bad piloting.

Originally posted by Darth Loki
Flight 77 hits the ground before it hits the Pentagon, wings shear off and burn up outside the building. The fuselage (and potentially another dense object?) penetrate the building.

Impact with the ground breaks the wings off.

The fuselage can penetrate the 18 inch outer wall, but the wings end up resting against the outer wall and being aluminum, they pretty much vaporize after the fire. The wings still shatter the outer wall but do not have the energy cross section to penetrate. A long bullet can penetrate an object when all the mass is inline with the direction of impact, but when the same bullet hits sideways it may not penetrate

That doesn't make sense though, many things do not support your hypothesis. One of the strongest part of a plane is the wing spar, stronger than the planes nose. Then there are the engines, if the nose could penetrate the heavy engines sure would, if they didn't then where are they? There was no marks on the lawn where the wings were supposed to have hit, the engines sit low on the wings and would have gouged huge holes.

Fire would not completely burn the wings without leaving at least ash and burned grass. Fire would not destroy the engines for obvious reasons.

reply to post by Darth Loki


Here is series of photos of the damage to the exterior (E Ring) wall

Wings did not shatter on impact, but punched into the building. The Pentagon wall was made of outer facade of
cut limestone backed by brick wall

Wings smashed a hole 96 ft across, the wing tips were broken off by the impact and did not penetrate

911review.com...

reply to post by thedman


so, in other words a missile.

Originally posted by userid1
reply to post by DIDtm

 

You said:

The article was saying that the FBI did NOT turn over any DNA from the 'hijackers', not no DNA comparisons at all

My article said:

The remains of the five hijackers have been identified through a process of exclusion, as they did not match DNA samples contributed by family members of all 183 victims who died at the site." - Washington Post (11/21/01)

Explain how it's possible to have a negative DNA match with no DNA? The FBI HAD to have provided DNA samples of the hijackers to Military Mortuary Affairs in Dover in order to get a negative match against the family members DNA.

You do understand that it was Military Mortuary Affairs, and NOT the FBI that did the DNA matching - right?

Sorry, I think it's you who has misinterpreted what was being said.

edit on 23-6-2011 by userid1 because: claity

What?
Negative DNA match?
What on Earth are you talking about? I doubt you even know.

I understand EXACTLY what I presented.
1. The FBI only obtained DNA from some of the 10 hijackers that were on the WTC flights.
2. The FBI either did NOT obtain or turn over DNA of the other 9 alleged hijackers that were on the other 2 flights.
3. The FBI obtained some DNA of the alleged terrorists form hotel rooms and rental cars.

What about this do you NOT understand?

reply to post by Darth Loki

Flight 77 hits the ground before it hits the Pentagon, wings shear off and burn up outside the building. The fuselage (and potentially another dense object?) penetrate the building.

Impact with the ground breaks the wings off

Nah man witnesses who were there saw no damage on the lawn, so it didn't hit the ground.

Lawn
Pentagon Lawn
High Quality Lawn

Originally posted by DIDtm

Originally posted by userid1
reply to post by DIDtm

 

You said:

The article was saying that the FBI did NOT turn over any DNA from the 'hijackers', not no DNA comparisons at all

My article said:
Explain how it's possible to have a negative DNA match with no DNA? The FBI HAD to have provided DNA samples of the hijackers to Military Mortuary Affairs in Dover in order to get a negative match against the family members DNA.

You do understand that it was Military Mortuary Affairs, and NOT the FBI that did the DNA matching - right?

Sorry, I think it's you who has misinterpreted what was being said.

edit on 23-6-2011 by userid1 because: claity

What?
Negative DNA match?
What on Earth are you talking about? I doubt you even know.

I understand EXACTLY what I presented.
1. The FBI only obtained DNA from some of the 10 hijackers that were on the WTC flights.
2. The FBI either did NOT obtain or turn over DNA of the other 9 alleged hijackers that were on the other 2 flights.
3. The FBI obtained some DNA of the alleged terrorists form hotel rooms and rental cars.

What about this do you NOT understand?

These are the points of contention - your quotes from above:

1. The FBI only obtained DNA from some of the 10 hijackers that were on the WTC flights. 2. The FBI either did NOT obtain or turn over DNA of the other 9 alleged hijackers that were on the other 2 flights.

The following is what you used to support it:
From your original external:

Why did the FBI provide no DNA samples to the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology to make comparisons to the remains from the other crash sites? Why did the FBI only have DNA samples for the alleged NY ten?

My argument (fitting with the subject of this thread - the PENTAGON!!!!!) is that this is obviously a LIE and here's the proof:

The remains of the five hijackers have been identified through a process of exclusion, as they did not match DNA samples contributed by family members of all 183 victims who died at the site." - Washington Post (11/21/01)

Do-you-now-understand-that-the-FBI-provided-flight #77-hijacker-DNA-samples-to-military mortuary-affairs-who-conducted-the-testing-for-the-Pentagon-crash?????
1 - How would Military Mortuary Affairs be unable to *match* DNA to family members WITHOUT the hijacker DNA to attempt the match with? Remains have DNA. This answers both of your assertions clearly - what *don't* you get about this?

Second - there would be no point in the FBI providing hijacker DNA samples from flight #77 to the NYC Morgue office since a dead hijacker can-only-be-one-place-at-a-time...

Jesus you are thick. Not only do you refuse to keep the comments restricted to the subject of the thread as you've been requested to do (3x), you ALSO can't understand basic english which specifies where the external quote YOU use to support your argument is factually and logically false.

Flush out your head gear guy.

reply to post by userid1
Keep posting User, you are only digging your own, shallow grave. Why shallow? Because the only deep thing about you is your delusion. Your team needs some new talent.

reply to post by dillweed


Yawn. This coming from the guy who posts in a related thread that HIS team is "winning" A la Charlie Sheen I presume?

these folks are shady