Proof: For the belief in G_D.

Originally posted by confreak
reply to post by YHWH2

 

I understand what the individual was saying, but that was so lame. He is saying that the Universe is amazing therefore GOD exists. He argues that GOD is needed to explain the amazingness of the Universe

although I see his point, but that is a lame one non-the less.

I mean as a Mathematician he should know that the Universe is not random, so why doesn't he use that as evidence to support the existence of GOD.

The debate has progressed beyond what you saw, the Universe Prof. Dawkins must argue is eternal, and if he argues what he must, than he admits to believing in something eternal.

Then we are ready to make Prof. Dawkins into the biggest fool ever to have walked and talked on Earth.

Clearly, you are probably the first person who actually did some research before opening their mouth, on here.

Thanks for adding some valuable perspective. Much appreciated. I was beginning to lose faith I was talking to thinking people. Although, some eventually got there, it's just you came in like a breath of fresh air. Bravo!

Peace be with you,
YHWH2

Postscript: Prof. Dawkins will argue that the Universe came to life spontaneously from nothing, how random is that? And now you are asking Pro. Lennox to use that as material for his refute. Prof. Lennox says: "If you teach people that faith is believing where there's no evidence, then you don't have to consider any evidence because by
definition it doesn't exist, but belief in God and faith in God is not simply faith in a theory about God."

Originally posted by Projectats
reply to post by YHWH2

 

For someone that has such a profound belief in God why does your signature say God 2? Pretty arrogant to say the least. I guess you believe and just don't respect.

edit on 19-6-2011 by Projectats because: Replacing Jehovah with God

I'm not sure if you're mixing up signature with username. However, YHWH are my initials, and the 1 was already taken, when I checked.

I apologise if I have offended you, not my intention.

Peace be with you,
YHWH2

Originally posted by thedoctorswife
lol, i dont know why i gave that fraction off the top of my head, i should have just said minute chance.

Fair enough, I don't think any less of you for it.

Perhaps you were involved in doing your taxes or working out a system for lotto at the same time. Things can get crossed in a hectic place, in any case.

Peace be with you,
YHWH2

Originally posted by MrGrimm

Sounds good to me, have a good day.

Sound good to me also, thanks.

Peace be with you,
YHWH2

Originally posted by ErtaiNaGia
reply to post by YHWH2

 

Proof: For the belief in G_D.

Are you trying to provide proof that YOU believe in God?

Why?

What possible reason would you have for PROVING that you believe in God?

I'll take your word for it, man... You believe in God... Ok, I'm cool with your belief.

Dr John Lennox, professor of mathematics......

No, seriously... You don't need mathematics to prove to me that you believe in the existance of God... I'll take your word for it.

You believe in god.

I still don't see why you had to make a thread about this.

But let us remember that science emerged out of Christianity, and moreover that if science could save your soul than it would become a religion.

Are you feeling okay?


I mean, you are getting sort of complex in your attempt to explain that you believe in god.... why do you feel the need?

reply to post by miniatus

 

Why are you hiding the word God with an underscore?

It's a religious thing.

Some sects of the Judaic faith believe that actually Spelling out the word "God" is, like... bad, or disrespectful, or something....

It's kind of based on the "Don't take God's name in Vain" thing....

Which is sort of Odd that they would censor the word "God", since it's not a name, but a title.

edit on 18-6-2011 by ErtaiNaGia because: (no reason given)

If I prove to you my belief in G_D you lose your attack on me that I'm deluded for holding my belief.

You shouldn't take me at my word because you stop questioning your position, and then, if I'm like Prof. Dawkins I can take advantage of your sillyness and make a zillion bucks off a mistaken contention, because you're just going to take me at my word, without investigating whether what I'm saying is founded in truth.

You are correct about your description of the spelling for G_D. Thanks for making it known, you were spot on, there.

BTW, I 'm feeling fine, I felt the need to start this thread to show you and others that I can prove that I am not deluded for believing in G_D. Since I'm not deluded, Prof. Dawkins book isn't worth to be used as paper for the toilet.

Cheers,
YHWH2

Originally posted by Warpthal
reply to post by YHWH2

 

This professer is trying to solve things eons away from his limited plain of wisdom. Seriously, everyone wants atheists to believe in God. They have a choice for what to worship.

Which Prof. you are speaking about is unknown since you don't make mention, there were two on stage. How far one of them may be from anything doesn't fit into the central contention of this thread, and you are deluded for thinking you are expanding our knowledge or adding something worthwhile.

I don't want atheists to believe in G_D, I just don't want them saying that my belief in G_D is deluded when it has been proven that my belief is true. Proven by Prof. Lennox. I thank him for it.

Sit down and just watch the debate, and see what is being said. Amazing stuff. Fixed Point Foundation.

Cheers,
YHWH2

Originally posted by pplrnuts
I always get a laugh when I see religious or creationist based threads which are titled with the word "Proof" in it.

Look folks, there is NO PROOF whatsoever in man-made FAIRY-TALES. None sorry.

Especially so for the Abrahamic type of barbaric, violent, hateful nonsense fairy-tale cults.

Jeez folks, even a talking donkey and a talking snake can see thru this fairy-tale nonsense.

You can continue laughing, I'm not telling you not to, all I'm saying is for you to watch the debate for yourself and reach a conclusion, it might be different from mine. It is not a fairy tale to be told that you are deluded for believing in G_D when proof for that belief exists.

Are you suggesting that the debate was a fairy tale?

You might think I'm wrong, but I would suggest you are laughing too much in life, and not questioning things enough.

Peace be with you,
YHWH2

Originally posted by Aleister
The proof is....in the pudding! Ummmmmmmm, pudding.

Second whine.

No you are mistaken, the proof is in the debate, watch it, and then make a comment.

Cheers,
YHWH2

Originally posted by beckham1285
I agree with what you said in your post. Also the term proof is not good in a religious debate. A religious person can simply say "God made it that way". Whose to say it wasn't through God's divine intervention that we evolved? Anyway I agree with you that just because we have technology and science to explain the laws of science, does not mean we know how they got there,

Proof is very good for me, it holds my contention together very well.

There is more to the debate than you have accurately gauged, I suggest you watch it and see how it influences your thinking. Amazing stuff.

Cheers,
YHWH2

Originally posted by TheUniverse
reply to post by YHWH2

 

Here's something to think about.

You see Religion has nothing to do with what happened on Earth; Before human arose.

Humans imply they are special and see god in their Own Image

When God and Religion are just concepts/terms Contrived by man himself
Men Personify themselves as god(Seeing God in their own Image)

Guess you forgot about all the other Planets in the Universe.

Peace.

Thats just my personal Opinion; Although i still leave the possibility of a god and/or Deity Existing; probably not one that answers to the humans from this Earth though.

But i suppose we should leave all variables open to possibility and/or subject to be the case.

(I'm Agnostic)

edit on 19-6-2011 by TheUniverse because: (no reason given)

I haven't forgotten anything, you are wrong.

I thank you for your peace.

Peace be with you,
YHWH2

Originally posted by redbarron626
From Dictionary.reference.com,

Proof:

noun
1.
evidence sufficient to establish a thing as true, or to produce belief in its truth.
2.
anything serving as such evidence: What proof do you have?
3.
the act of testing or making trial of anything; test; trial: to put a thing to the proof.

btw the Jewish people use the spelling G_D because they believe that saying or writing the word is taking the lords name in vain. Of course you can always say(or write) GOD Bless.

I decided to give 3 cents this time.

You've done very well, your 3 cents are worth more than just the number they represent as you are correct with the definitions and your G_D assertion is spot on.

The proof for my belief in G_D is evident in my opening post.

Peace be with you,
YHWH2

Originally posted by DetectiveT
Science came from Christianity? I would have said science has been with us from the beginning ever since the first of us watched the laws of nature, duplicated it and learned how to make fire and other various things.

Building a fire is much different from placing a DVD in a Blue-Ray player and watching moving images. This now becomes technology, different from science, even though it came from it. Philosophically, science emerged from Christianity. You need to look further to support your assertiion.

Originally posted by DetectiveT

I have no problem when people say they believe in a god. In fact I would think that many who like myself don't believe in a god would think this way. My problem comes from the fact that those who choose to believe in god claim to know exactly what this god wants and how this god thinks and what will happen to us because they read it from a book. Not just one book but many, all of which make the assertion that it is the truth. To use gravity and nature as an example is much different than a piece of text.

People bought Prof. Dawkins book and turned it into a bestseller, so clearly many people don't think that way.

Your problem comes from fundamentalist Christians reading the Bible literally, not me. I'm saying that I am not deluded in believing in G_D because proof from my belief exists thanks to Prof. Lennox's close and accurate examination of the details under study in this discussion.

I am very pleased that such an intellect exists in this world. He is my hero, along with Bryan Appleyard and a few others.

Originally posted by DetectiveT

Religions have no reason to rally behind such arguments because all it states is that there is a god. Arguing whether a god exists and arguing whether the god is of a specific religion are two separate things.

You are correct, they are two seperate things, and even there Prof. Lennox is ahead in his argument.

He says: "And I think we need to distinguish two things. And that is, what I'm not saying is that there are no true insights elsewhere. When you consider the great philosophies and religions of the world as was pointed out long ago, you'll discover that at the moral level, there are a lot of commonalities, and from where I sit as a Christian, that makes perfect sense, because every one of us, whether we believe in God or not, whether we're atheists, whether we're Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, we are moral beings, and in fact that's a very good basis for our being able to live together in society.

I can't speak for other religions. There is blind faith around in the world and it's very dangerous. I would agree with the New Atheists especially when it's coupled to authoritarianism. But as far as Christianity is concerned, faith is not blind in that sense. It is a response to evidence."

Thanks for raising a valid point, a masterful reply from Prof. Lennox.

Peace be with you,
YHWH2

Originally posted by NorthStargal52
reply to post by YHWH2

 

posted by YHWH2
“You are correct, I'm just suggesting you should believe in G_D, because it can be effective against science's attempt to remove your soul from your body.”

NSG52 My Reply:
“I don’t understand that way of thinking as you put it ,, Im sorry but my belief or faith is traditional Native American and yes my Dad once sent me to Sunday school and that only lasted a short while .. as I was always asking too many questions on stuff they taught,, for instance ..I'd ask >> is that what a angel looks like or is god a white man or where is heaven ? and on an on my questions kept on going lol
I believe in a great spirit he is not called God .. he is the energy field that put it all into existence and gave to us life in many forms .. the word God to me it means a "modern term" man made word not of the spiritual sense ..
The God word IMO ...it does not capture the beauty of the whole picture ... A spiritual mind does not divide the human race ..
ok what I mean is just because some don’t believe in your way .. does not mean science will attempt to remove your soul that is a ridiculas statement you do realize that don’t you ?”

posted by YHWH2
“If it's unfortunate that you are not in Bible study than that is something you can remedy easily, I'm sure. Could be cool, do actually know a bit more.”

NSG52 Reply’s:
“I'm over 50 years old .. how old are you ??? not that it matters but I have been there and back .. I have read the bible more than once as well as the Quran and the Tanakh i have sat and talked with Jehovah witnesses I’m afraid your point here is null.”

posted by YHWH2
“I don't have it against atheists, as you say, merely the ones which contend a whole book from a mistake, like Prof. Dawkins has done.”

NSG52 Reply’s:
“Ok you may not have it out for them and maybe its just you trying to warn us of something..BUT I'm not quite sure what that is .. too many people out their being Fanatics on religion like Harold Camping .. and others trying to say the world is ending .. BAHHH
Science has nothing to do with taking your soul in my opinion .. I’m just saying reading a book does not make it proof ok.”

I am not disrespecting your beliefs. You are entitled to believe what you have outlined.

From a philosophical perspective you don't have proof for your belief in the way I do from my Christian perspective. If you think that is a warning than you can take it as that. Harold Camping is a fundamentalist Christian who reads the Bible literally, I don't subscribe to his views and I don't agree with a literal reading of the Bible.

Peace be with you,
YHWH2

Originally posted by YHWH2

The debate has progressed beyond what you saw, the Universe Prof. Dawkins must argue is eternal, and if he argues what he must, than he admits to believing in something eternal.

Why must Dawkins argue the Universe is eternal?

Then we are ready to make Prof. Dawkins into the biggest fool ever to have walked and talked on Earth.

so if he doesn't argue the Universe is eternal, say perhaps because he's a biologist and astrophysics is not his area of knowledge or that he simply doesn't believe the Universe is eternal - then who would be the biggest fool ever?

Postscript: Prof. Dawkins will argue that the Universe came to life spontaneously from nothing, how random is that?

I tell you what i think is random - the claim that the universe was poofed into existence by a Jewish wizard who suffered from some serious personality disorders - now that's random

Originally posted by YHWH2

Originally posted by thedoctorswife
reply to post by YHWH2

 

I completely believe in a creator, but what proof is there, really?

That you believe is proof that you believe, isn't it?

Cheers,
YHWH2

Epic troll thread - I fear everyone has lost.

Because you seriously cannot be.

reply to post by YHWH2


I'm not one to throw around 'logic' and 'objectivity' as THE ultimate mesaure-tape, but as the OP includes the word 'proof', it's on the author's own head (in a later post from me).

But first a few observations on the OP.

It starts with arguments from 'authority'. Be these 'authorities' oriented one way or another, just parroting them is without purpose on a public forum. Even 'authorities' can and should be questioned.

And then the whole thing detoriates quickly into rhetorics.

Quote: ["To make sense of the debate, from the philosophical approach, the correspondence theory of truth and the coherence test for truth or its explanation, is central to answer the question: Is Christianity true?"]

How does that fit with the title stating: "Proof for the belief in G-d"? The existence of the concept 'belief' is hardly doubted by anyone, but what has that to do with the 'truth' of christianity?

Quote: ["But let us remember that science emerged out of Christianity,"]

Which is complete nonsense.

Quote: ["and moreover that if science could save your soul than it would become a religion."]

If, if, if. .... IF my grandmother had had wheels, she would have been a bus. And IF science had been in the 'soul' and 'god' business.......

Quote: ["Karl Marx, the German political philosopher and revolutionary, if he could, would have attempted to turn science into a faith."]

Your knowledge of science is app. a century out-of-date. Refer to contemporary science, not to the shame of 'scientism', which is as irrational as 'faith'.

Quote: ["So, these proponents seek instead to remove the souls from our bodies and replace what they seek to remove with reason and do so with science's cultural authority."]

Try to get a grip on 'gnostic' and 'agnostic' positions.

Quote: ["By setting-up scientific laws with the agency of G_D in the form of competing concepts is wrong."]

Science relates to the observable cosmos. Theism speculates on trans-cosmic options.

Quote: [" Just because we can see gravity at work doesn't mean we can't marvel in the way G_D created, the apple falling to the earth."]

Circle-argument based on assumptions: That 'god' exists, that he created, and that his creation includes gravity.

Quote: ["We need G_D to say that gravity is clever, for instance, and so therefore that G_D is a clever designer."]

Not 'intelligent design' AGAIN. ID has been dead for years, and revival-efforts is a waste of time. But DO go ahead and try.

Quote: ["Perhaps a more clear-thinking scientist than Prof. Dawkins, Niels Bohr, the Danish physicist and Nobel laureate, said; 'It is wrong to think that the task of physics is to find out how nature is. Physics concerns what we can say about nature.' "]

The hows are for science, the whys for philosophy. Everyone slightly familiar with science etc knows this. Try to get a grip of 'gnostic' and 'agnostic' positions.

Quote: ["But to continue on Prof. Lennox's precisely accurate understanding, don't go into faith blindly, but replace 'faith' with trust, just like you trust that an apple falling from a tree will move downwards until it eventually hits the ground."]

Semantic gymnastics.

Quote: ["that proof exists for the belief in G_D,"]

And for belief in Zeus, Woden, Thor, Brahma, and the 3.500 other 'god' candidates.

Quote: ["and therefore believing in G_D from the Christian perspective is not a delusion but trust in a real person."]

As belief in the flying spaghetti monster isn't a delusion from a FSM 'perspective'.

Quote: ["I'm not going to tell you to go and join a religion which holds G_D at the centre of its belief system, but it would be wrong of me to not warn you that your soul is at risk of harm by having the belief of G_D absent or missing from your life."]

Just as I will warn people of the obvious dangers of HAVING a theist belief.

Originally posted by racasan

Originally posted by YHWH2

The debate has progressed beyond what you saw, the Universe Prof. Dawkins must argue is eternal, and if he argues what he must, than he admits to believing in something eternal.

Why must Dawkins argue the Universe is eternal?

Then we are ready to make Prof. Dawkins into the biggest fool ever to have walked and talked on Earth.

so if he doesn't argue the Universe is eternal, say perhaps because he's a biologist and astrophysics is not his area of knowledge or that he simply doesn't believe the Universe is eternal - then who would be the biggest fool ever?

Postscript: Prof. Dawkins will argue that the Universe came to life spontaneously from nothing, how random is that?

I tell you what i think is random - the claim that the universe was poofed into existence by a Jewish wizard who suffered from some serious personality disorders - now that's random

edit on 19-6-2011 by racasan because: sort something out

Prof. Dawkins believes that the universe created him. So when Prof. Lennox asks him who created the universe?, he will have to admit to believing in the Universe being eternal, but he won't admit it, further supporting the contention that his position is built on the poorest of arguments.

I am not talking about hypotheticals, I'm talking about a top-shelf debate which is governed by established and well-introduced questions.

It is up to you to ask Prof. Dawkins if he believes the Universe is eternal, not wonder if he does or doesn't, since he is telling you that you are deluded for believing in G_D. I'm saying the natural next step for him to forward his position, that from what he's saying, the Universe is eternal. He won't admit it though, very suspicious, if you ask me.

Why won't Prof. Dawkins admit that he believes the Universe is eternal, this is a far better question which interests me?

Thanks for raising an important point, but I cannot take you seriously when you begin to speak about wizards and such fantastical things, within a discussion which is born out facts.

Peace be with you,
YHWH2

reply to post by bogomil


It has been proven, thanks to Prof. Lennox, that proof exists for the belief in G_D. Hence, I am not deluded for believing in G_D.

Thanks for coming along. Now go and watch the debates at the Fixed Point Foundation between Prof. Lennox and Prof. Dawkins.

Cheers,
YHWH2

reply to post by YHWH2


In a later post you wrote to MrGrimm:

["If this thread is pointless than you are speaking for yourself, only."]

MrGrimm is definitely speaking for me also.

You skip around from persepctive to perspective, and you have very little understanding of the 'tools' you use on the way.

You don't need proof all you need is faith. God designed it that way. If I had a million dollars and told you all you have to do is say that you believe I'm god, you would say it in a heartbeat but you wouldn't mean it. that's why Satan gives proof. Go ahead worship him and you will "get something out of the deal" if thats what matters to you. I don't go around threatening people with hell and I agree that we don't really know what hell is,(I sometimes think hell is what we put ourselves through when we don't live according to our purpose and heaven is the opposite) or god for that matter. How could we understand these things? God IS still necessary. We know there is gravity sure but we don't understand everything about it. And there are tons of things we don't understand. Once we understand everything about our universe and life and death then you can begin to start to say there isn't a god if you want. But until you die you don't know what will happen. I don't think you will go to hell for saying "i don't think there is a god" see, the elites who decided to put that man-made clause in the religion was clever. Now we are divided. We could simply be a group who believes and a group that doesn't, but no, the group that does has to threaten the group that doesn't and further divide the people. And I've noticed lately that atheists are getting just as bad as Christians when it comes to throwing their beliefs in your face and ridiculing you and being ignorant by thinking that if you've met one Christian you've met them all... "oh you're a Christian? Oh you believe in a 10,000 year old earth and that a man named Noah gathered every single animal on the planet and packed them into a boat...since you are a Christian I am smarter than you by default". I could start a thread saying "Does god allow dogs in heaven?" And I would have 10 replies on the first page saying "there is no god and no heaven so it doesn't matter" By the way I'm not just a Christian, I'm a Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, and Pagan. If you are open minded enough you can see that they all have something to offer. Nothing is for certain that is the only thing I am certain about. Maybe there isn't a god, and if there is, I somehow doubt he would punish us for being curious and asking questions. But I believe there is based on nothing but my personal experiences in life, bit I will never harm or exclude anyone based on my beliefs so it shouldn't matter to you if I believe or not unless you have an agenda. I usually pray to the Creator, or I sometimes I just call it/him/her The Universe or Love. Capitalizing is not important to me either. Basically anything invented by man could ne useful in some ways but is not necessary. Like the bible. I appreciate many religious texts but all I Need is to look inside myself to know what is right and wrong. So, don't burn the bible, but dont burn people who choose not to read it or believe it. Just let it be at peace. Live and let live. But if you become violent or hateful to one another and that will become your downfall. You might gain some material goods or popularity in this fashion but that doesn't even begin to compare to the price you will pay by losing a part of yourself. I live below the poverty line. My family is quite happy and so am I. We don't seek to be respected but we are because the people in our community are continually astounded by the acts of kindness and selflessness performed by us on a daily basis. I know that if I didn't give up so much that I could probably have a Lot of "nice things" bit that could never compare to the rewards that come with helping others. I guess you could say I am selfish and that's why I help others because like a junkie, I love the feeling I get from it. It's not a self righteous feeling, its a feeling of having a purpose worthy of my time and effort, and seeing it fulfilled little by little on a daily basis. I rarely mention my deeds because its not my goal to be praised or looked up to. But sometimes, when I feel there is a chance someone else might be inspired to do the same, I will take the time to explain what I do and the rewards involved, which includes a lot of freedom from the system. I am still faaaaaar from perfect... *takes a drag off my smoke* I can be especially nasty when I come across a person being unkind to another, especially when the person committing the unkindness is more clever than the person they are "attacking"... I see everyone as my family and I don't like people hurting my family, even my own family doesn't get away with that... But, I am not here to attain perfection. Anything good that I do is because of god/creator/universe/love and anything bad I do is because of me. To the OP, read my first sentence. I believe this information could straighten out some of the members issue with your thread title. God Bless you all. *waiting for the cynical replies regarding all the great and wonderful things I supposedly do all the time, lol, even though I stated I take no credit for any of it, and I have no church or organization for anyone to donate to so clearly I have no agenda but to show others one pathway I have found that works for me, keeping in mind that it is not the only pathway and I have not finished traveling it yet so I can't even tell you where it leads to* did i cover all my bases? If noone replies then I guess I did. People make so many assumptions and since I rarely return to a thread after my initial post, I sometimes find it necessary to make a long post explaining all the "what ifs" since I will not be back to defend myself or my beliefs. For that, I apologize.