Believers: A Friendly Challenge/Discussion

reply to post by Klassified


You would have to have witnessed the real alien operations that took place on US soil during the late 40s, the operations occurred for 50 years, and they ramped up in the 70s. There are people who had seen strange lights come down and mutilate a cattle in a field, they appear to not even touch the animal but still do. Richard Doty told Linda Howe in the beginning of their meeting (1983 at the famous Kirkland AFB) "you know you upset a lot of people in Washington with that film when you did it. You came too close to the truth". This the same man who was involved with a scientist who developed proof of an underground alien base in the area. If aliens were to mutilate cattle (which police officers believed because the lights and acts were too strange) then it would be likely that such an advanced species could conjure up a base close to their studies and subjects. The twist of the story that is even harder to believe, something many UFO researchers have verified and was even televised. In 1964 the government actually met and spoke with aliens, and they agreed to keep their activities secret in exchange for technology. So it would make sense that behind close doors Doty would say that to Linda, but Doty would also say disinformation and never admit to the base which the government agreed to. The story televised was aliens called the "large nose greys", but the large nose part is disinformation, they were simple and real grey aliens.

reply to post by Kandinsky

reply to post by Klassified

Regarding the humanoid contact warnings relating to Earth's environment, I think if you agree in a vested interest in Earth being habitable, surely a theory like my Dinosaur one, or perhaps another similar one, has to be taken seriously. If a humanoid can survive in earthy conditions, perhaps it is a species that left Earth after a catastrophe and has a hidden presence here? I think that has to be one of the simplest theries that explains nearly all the "unexplained" data regarding alien contact.

Of course, I could be barking up the wrong tree. Other possible explanations are that the planet is a terra(?)forming project. That would also explain the environmental warnings. This would fit in well with the watchman technology idea mentioned by Kandinsky (i.e. looking after the project).

A bit off topic but... If this planet is a project - the invention of nukes would not be helpful to the plan! Nor would it be good news to hidden/returning Earth species! Suddenly there was a lot of UFO activity around the time nukes appeared. Again, an important part of the UFO phenomenon can be explained easily.

UFO reports from Nuclear/Atomic Sites.

Aliens have deactivated British and US nuclear missiles, say US military pilots

U.S. Nuclear Weapons Have Been Compromised by Unidentified Aerial Objects

reply to post by Klassified


I can understand the sensationalised part, especially with some more contemporary 'abductees' (read Whitey Strieber), but if you look at myths and fairy tales of the past you find some similar kinds of language and imagery. I'm reminded of the Changeling, which is where the Fairy Folk would take a human child and replace it with one of their own babies in disguise because they were dying and needed genetic assistance. (Sound familiar?) One of the first 'modern' abduction accounts is that of Antonio Villas-Boas, whose story if you are not already familiar with I suggest reading. Only because the being involved is all too terrestrial. (In more ways than one). For more about the late Mac Tonnies, you can check out his website and blog, but I really recommend getting the book.

reply to post by countduckula24

I'd find Boas more convincing if he hadn't claimed to have built flying saucers himself based on technical data given him by aliens. That is just straining credulity to the limit.

On the other hand some of Boas pictures are among the hardest UFO snaps to debunk... Unfortunately I can't find any on the web.

reply to post by Pimander


I didn't know that he had tried to build flying saucers, Are we talking about the same South American farmer that was abducted in the 50's, whose story was first investigated by APRO?

reply to post by countduckula24

Sorry no.

It was Paul Villa. I got mixed up (Villa/Villas-Boas). Better cut down on the liquor.

Take a look at these if you are interested. www.google.co.uk... =0CC4QsAQ&biw=1360&bih=589

Sorry for the off topic post there OP

Here's an article on him. www.ufodigest.com...

reply to post by Pimander


It's cool. Honestly at first I thought I was the one that needed to lay off the booze .

Back on topic, I believe that I have heard the 'evolved Dinosaurs' theory. I can't remember where I heard this from, but I had once heard that some scientist projected what Dinosaurs would look like had they survived whatever cause them to become extinct, and the image was identical to what people claim the 'Reptilian' aliens look like.

reply to post by countduckula24

Look guys I know I wrote it but this is relevant.

Are 'Aliens' Dinosaurs & Survivers of an Earthly Cataclysm Returning Home?

If you read into the thread it's all there. The scientists name is Dale Russell. I have taken the theory a lot further as you will see if you read the thread.

I find it fascinating how the common goal of proving the existence of alien visitation has now become an argument of the true origin. I am ashamed to be human.

Originally posted by TimeCrisis
I find it fascinating how the common goal of proving the existence of alien visitation has now become an argument of the true origin. I am ashamed to be human.

I'm ashamed you're human too if you think that is a valid point. This is a discussion in response to the OP.

FROM THE OP: Originally posted by Klassified
But to this point, I haven’t seen or read anything that convinces me “they” have to be aliens. I have my own theories as to possibilities, and would like to posit those, and ask a few questions.

Everything I’ve read, seen, and heard so far convinces me that whatever forces are behind the modern UFO phenomenon, are more than likely terrestrial in nature.

This thread has remained amazingly on topic compared to many. How shameful.

reply to post by Pimander


Yeah that's it, Dale Russell. Man I read about that a long time back it seems. That theory is just as plausible (if not more so) as is the ETH. Which as I have pointed out on this site (and my blog shameless plug I know) is still just a Hypothesis. And it may explain SOME of the UFO phenomena, but no one theory is likely to be able to explain it all. Fortean topics just don't seem to work that way.

reply to post by Klassified


Thanks for the acknowledgment. I was hoping to convince you, aliens are most likely travelers from deep space, because it makes so much more sense to me.

Really the only other options are the Dinosaur Humanoid which is flawed. The Hollow Earth theory which is flawed. A more advanced human? There are threads on ATS about a race of humans in Ancient Africa called Boskop Man.

Honestly the best bet is Aliens from other planets in the Universe came to Earth and/or there are parallel dimensions that exist, and beings cross over.

It just makes so much more sense.

Here is an article of about the Many Worlds Theory you might be interested in.

Link

In 1954, a young Princeton University doctoral candidate named Hugh Everett III came up with a radical idea: That there exist parallel universes, exactly like our ­universe. These universes are all related to ours; indeed, they branch off from ours, and our universe is branched off of others. Within these parallel universes, our wars have had different outcomes than the ones we know. Species that are extinct in our universe have evolved and adapted in others. In other universes, we humans may have become extinct.

Basically what the theory is saying that every possibility may exist in a Parallel Universe due to studies on quantum physics.

With his Many-Worlds theory, Everett was attempting to answer a rather sticky question related to quantum physics: Why does quantum matter behave erratically? The quantum level is the smallest one science has detected so far. The study of quantum physics began in 1900, when the physicist Max Planck first introduced the concept to the scientific world. Planck's study of radiation yielded some unusual findings that contradicted classical physical laws. These findings suggested that there are other laws at work in the universe, operating on a deeper level than the one we know.

From Wiki

The many-worlds interpretation is a postulate of quantum mechanics that asserts the objective reality of the universal wavefunction, but denies the actuality of wavefunction collapse, which implies that all possible alternative histories and futures are real—each representing an actual "world" (or "universe").

You can read it to it, I'm sure there are some valid points against the Theory, as I'm sure there is more information available on the validity of a Parallel Universe.

Now with Aliens from deep space visiting Earth, the only logical argument for the theory that comes to mind at this moment would be we are doing the same thing. We've been going into space for the past 60 years and look how far we've come. Now consider the age of the Universe and think how far someone else may have come....

This logical reasoning is why we are searching for extremeophiles in our Solar System. To prove life exists elsewhere in the Universe besides Earth. This discovery would give more credence to the idea that we've been visited.

Especially think about the technologies available for you and me, the Internet. The Internet was once only used by the Army. Think of today's "army internet" could be...What I'm getting at is if by the time we discover extremeophiles in our Solar System, our level of technology will be so advanced, that it will only be logical that if a Star System millions of light years away could travel here. They are millions of light years away, therefore millions of years more evolved. This is what most people will think. They already do.

Now consider if we detect a completely identical Earth-Like planet, possibly in a Solar System with more planets and moons, maybe 2 or 3 Suns, and larger Suns at that. Imagine what kind of alien culture would exist there?

If you don't know how much we have accomplished in Space travel and exploration I suggest you do some research. Hopefully it will start to make more sense for you.

reply to post by Klassified


I have my own thoughts and yep you come so very close to" what is .. indeed there is a underworld"..

that’s been known among us for many moons .. and yes these ET and Aliens are of no sun so they get the energies they have by being recharged by what else the Sun or stars .. Its like a feeding thing to them is what Im thinking . They are dependent on energy and maybe some sort of minerals or fluids that Im not sure of what that is .. ..I really hate to spout out my thoughts cause I have been laughed at on ats for saying that there were ant people .. this is a Hopi belief.

The Inca worshiped a number of gods, the 6 major gods of the Inca were the moon, sun, earth, lightning and the sea. The Sun God Inti was the most revered and most powerful of the Inca mythology. So this is so true throughout tribal peoples to regard the Moon , the Earth , Sun, Water, an Thunder Lighting as powerful energy.

I know this may sound nuts but this is why I really think of Alien existence on the moon is real and they are not on the top of the moon surface the are underground they may have structures above but these are most likely to contain energy ..

I think that these beings on the moon use the craters as entrances it would make sense for them to love below in tunnels to many asteroids and other debris strikes the moon so they have to be underground and im sure hey are very aware of the underworld here on earth also..

Originally posted by Pimander
reply to post by countduckula24

 

Look guys I know I wrote it but this is relevant.

Are 'Aliens' Dinosaurs & Survivers of an Earthly Cataclysm Returning Home?

If you read into the thread it's all there. The scientists name is Dale Russell. I have taken the theory a lot further as you will see if you read the thread.

I am in the process of reading this thread now that I'm done for the day. I'll post back here afterward.

Originally posted by game over man
Now consider if we detect a completely identical Earth-Like planet, possibly in a Solar System with more planets and moons, maybe 2 or 3 Suns, and larger Suns at that. Imagine what kind of alien culture would exist there?

You can make that theory simpler (Occams Razor) by removing the need to find your Earth like planet. It isn't difficult. You were there when you typed those words, game over man.

Now imagine a planet completely identical to the one we live on now. With a Star just like ours. In fact, imagine it was our Sun. That would make it identical to ours. Imagine that planet Earth like planet you were searching for was Earth, only it was 90 million years ago. Imagine what kind of "alien" culture would EVOLVE there....

Imagine a bipedal dinosaur, with a large brain, opposable thumb and good linguistic abilities lived in conditions very like the ones our ancestors did. Conditions where our ancestors needed to evolve intelligence, tool making and culture like ours in order to survive. How do you think they would have evolved?

game over man, the problem is you are thinking inside a box. The Earth like planet that could harbour intelligent life has existed for BILLIONS OF YEARS already. Right here. Any argument you can produce to support the intelligent space faring aliens from Earth like planets also supports the simpler theory that they already evolved on Earth at least once - if not several times - in the BILLIONS OF YEARS this planet has supported life.

It allegedly only took 1 million or so to produce Homo sapiens sapiens. If you think intelligent life that is capable of space faring could develop on an Earth like planet elsewhere then you are in denial if you think it couldn't happen here. It stands to reason.

Are Aliens Dinosaurs. Read it with open eyes and open mind.

Admittedly, it may not have been dinosaurs. We know so much less than is popularly thought about Earth's long past. It may have been something else that developed in a similar way - who knows? I don't doubt that real aliens may have visited us. Ones that, perhaps. can't cope with oxygen and "burn up" if they are exposed to our atmosphere. However, there is too much evidence that our more terrestrial cousins muddying the waters.

Don't be blinded by the closed minded nonsense you often hear on here. Just because somebody is a better communicator or sound better spoken than me or you doesn't mean they know any better. Also bear in mind that some people are on ATS to impart something they know - ANONYMOUSLY. You don't have to listen, but it helps.

reply to post by Pimander

Seems you had some folks that were open to the idea in that thread Pimander. But some that definitely wanted to give you a lashing. I found your ideas not only plausible, but probable as well.

As a species with some technological advancement under our belts. We like to think we know a lot about our home. But the truth of the matter, as you and others have pointed out, is we know squat in comparison to what there is yet to discover.

At the same time, the mountain of knowledge and information secreted away from the public is something I've suspected since I was young, and nothing I've learned in life since that time has changed my mind. If anything, the belief has been strengthened over time.

Discoveries have probably been made in my country, as well as your own, that could have done away with much of the guesswork decades ago. And we all could be much further along. Whats worse, is that many of the worlds scientists are kept out of the loop as well. Can't work with facts you don't have, can you? Can't work at a new level of understanding if you aren't aware of its existence, can you? Can't fit puzzle pieces together that are hidden from view, can you?

It was disheartening for me to reach a point in my life where I realized that I live in a system that is hellbent on dumbing me down, deluding me, deceiving me, and keeping me enslaved to a set of ideas, and a paradigm that has never existed.

In the recent, two people have corrected a view of mine on evolution. That mans evolution is taught as being linear. Which is interesting to say the least. In high school, I remember my science teacher giving that very impression. In words, and in pictures, the impression the general public is given is that we, as a species, started at point A, and ended up where we are now. No detours, just a straight line.

Now I understand why I was given that impression. I still am not 100% on the evolution bandwagon as it is taught, but if the common man understood all the different routes the evolutionary process can, and could have taken, it upsets the apple cart. It brings new possibilities into the picture, and the ideas of social and societal evolution come into question as well. AKA, "We are the pinnacle of civilization on earth". My point being I've never believed mans evolution to be a straight line, but thats how it was taught to me. Now I understand my gut was on the right track.

There could be more than one species of human walking the earth today right beside us, and we might not realize it. Because outwardly, they appear to be us. And in essence, they would be. But with some slight differences.

More than ever, I believe there is a scenario playing out in our little corner of the universe that rivals some of the best science fiction ever written. Thanks for your input into this thread.

Originally posted by countduckula24
And it may explain SOME of the UFO phenomena, but no one theory is likely to be able to explain it all. Fortean topics just don't seem to work that way.

Agreed. It's a complicated field where lots of unrelated data are linked. I guess you're right that it is the nature of the beast.

If you get a money making fortean project going, let me know. I could write you some material

reply to post by Pimander
As I understand it, the 'dinosaur hypothesis' doesn't hit all the buttons.

There's no evidence of ancient civilisations pre-dating ours. No evidence that a reptile species achieved dominance in the Triassic or any other prehistoric era. There's no evidence in the fossil record of a dinosaur with the physical ability to manipulate tools or create fire.

Without fire, technology can't evolve past sharp stone tools.

reply to post by Klassified

In the recent, two people have corrected a view of mine on evolution. That mans evolution is taught as being linear. Which is interesting to say the least. In high school, I remember my science teacher giving that very impression. In words, and in pictures, the impression the general public is given is that we, as a species, started at point A, and ended up where we are now. No detours, just a straight line.

Don't overlook the nature of teaching. Teachers have to pass on the knowledge at a level that their classes can understand. If a university Professor tried to apply their lectures to a high school audience, they'd soon realise that nobody could understand what they were talking about. High school teachers can only explain evolution within the boundaries of what their students can comprehend.

If your teacher presented evolution as linear, they were failing in their expression of what evolutionary theory represents. Rather than linear, it's multi-directional.

reply to post by Kandinsky

You really should ask that question in the thread about it. However, I answered similar questions there.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

There's no proof. However, I don't think it will be possible to prove we were here in 100 million years or whatever.




It looks from fossil evidence as though some Dinosaurs were developing dexterity that, if an advantage, may lead to tools, fire etc. I really might have to save some of my material back for a book though. This is not going to pay my bills, even though I love all of this.

reply to post by Klassified

reply to post by Kandinsky

I spent 2 years teaching Secondary School (High School) science. Many of the teachers did not understand evolutionary theory that well at all. Unfortunate, but true.