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Believers: A Friendly Challenge/Discussion

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posted on Jun, 17 2011 @ 11:30 PM
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I am not opposed to the idea of ET’s visiting earth, and have nothing to gain or lose from denying or admitting to that being the case. But to this point, I haven’t seen or read anything that convinces me “they” have to be aliens. I have my own theories as to possibilities, and would like to posit those, and ask a few questions.

Everything I’ve read, seen, and heard so far convinces me that whatever forces are behind the modern UFO phenomenon, are more than likely terrestrial in nature. Setting aside those things easily explainable, and getting down to the 1 or 2 percent(IMO) that are actually in the “other” category, I believe there are a few possibilities. The first being that we have either governing powers, or a select group of people who are in possession of technology and knowledge far beyond what we consider possible at this stage of our scientific understanding. Even abduction cases can be faked and manipulated by the abductors through a variety of methods. And I also find this a possible scenario.

Historically however, things aren’t as cut and dried. Like many of you, I have poured over the artwork, legends, and writings of our ancestors, and though I can see mundane explanations for some things, I just see too much that points to something else. From my perspective, these people saw, heard, and experienced something. And it wasn’t mundane by any means.

So what did they see, hear, and experience? Drug induced Hallucinations? Wild imaginations? Natural phenomena? Nothing? And we really are just misunderstanding what our ancestors are relating to us? All of these are possible in at least some cases. That I would concede.

But what if the truth is even wilder than alien visitors from the Pleiades?
Even crazier than believers are willing to accept?
What if, as I have said previously, “they” are actually native to the earth?
What if “they” have been here a lot longer than we have?

My tentative and pet theory is that they may very well be that persistent thread throughout history. Aliens explain a lot. But I think a seperate, but similar species that possibly “evolved” on the earth also explains a lot.
There are places on earth where a small but healthy civilization could hide even now. At least with the right technology to aid them in doing so.

Another possibility is that they haven’t stayed on earth, but have stayed in our solar system.
It could easily explain their involvement in our affairs off and on historically.
Why they have such an interest.

Why it’s so easy for them to come and go frequently. Since they wouldn’t have far to travel.
It would explain why they are talked about as being from the stars or the heavens. And it could be that they themseves have perpetuated this.
I could go on and on.

But my question is:
Why is this not as plausible a theory as aliens from across the galaxy?
Is it because it isn’t sensational and romantic enough?
Or is it really easier to believe that aliens have travelled from across the universe, and are doing so regularly?

This thread isn’t about the facts as much as it is why you believe what you believe. Although skeptics are encouraged to chime in here as well with all the facts they wish. But I’d rather here why you believe it must be aliens, and why my scenario isn’t as plausible as ET's.
edit on 6/17/2011 by Klassified because: Reword




posted on Jun, 17 2011 @ 11:49 PM
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Actually, the more I read up on various alien stories, the more I become curious about "hollow earth"...not as in a eggshell type hollow earth theory, but rather mega cavernous systems that could house cities or even nations type holes here and there.

Initially I thought it was a bit fanciful, but then I actually stop dismissing it and actually researched it.

The typical alien experience, both greys and the nords, have attributes that would come from living in a environment where there was not alot of sunlight...and there is historical references to both underground dwelling myth creatures (elves, dwarves), and biblical passages that discuss those whom live under the earth.

This would make them an earthling just like anyone else, just a different race of people (like finding the native americans with their slightly different look because of adaptation). I do wonder about such people's technology level of course, and more importantly, if we could somehow initiate trade and exchange...however, they may have watched how we "meet" other cultures and decided to keep the door closed.

All things are possible though...from far off star travellers, to different dimensions, time travellers, cave dwellers, etc. I write nothing off anymore, however, I would like to see some tangable proof before I fully accept one aspect over another...but I would recommend any alien believers to check up on the "hollow earth" aspect and see how nicely some of that fits and makes sense.



posted on Jun, 17 2011 @ 11:50 PM
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Klassified, You have courage to bring this up in that context, but I have found myself wondering the same things for the same reasons. In my view, I look at the Old Testament in suggesting life spans were once into the Hundreds of Years as one example. If that one fact is true, then Einstein was a child when he died...and we have had far more advanced minds around in ancient times. Assuming that is even remotely close to fact, then Lunar structures or even Martian structures aren't alien at all. They represent a deep history of our own species and where we have managed to get in times long forgotten.

I'm throwing this out as a personal opinion to add in what you suggest.....but if Einstein were correct and time travel is possible in ANY way, at ANY time with ANY level of technology.. well.. think that one through.
It's not a paradox, but it sure cooks the noodle to consider.

If it's ever possible..even a MILLION years from now..time frame is irrelevant. It's not only going to happen, it already HAS happened..and we have crossed milestones in the past century with atomics and self destruction that WOULD interest generations a thousand years into our future. Hence...It HAS happened and continues to happen in OUR time..Right now.

How is that for fuel to a migraine headache? I know I've had a few "Excedrin" moments in thinking it beyond the purely hypothetical.



posted on Jun, 18 2011 @ 12:06 AM
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reply to post by Klassified
 


Your points are certainly valid, and have just as much logical reasoning behind them than the theory that this strange phenomenon is caused by interstellar or interdimensional beings. The only counter point that I have to make, is that the likelihood of other beings evolving elsewhere in the inconceivable vastness of THIS universe is much higher than it evolving along side us on this small planet. In my opinion, based on what we know of conventional space travel, the highest likelihood is that we are encountering beings from other universes, if we are in fact, encountering anything other than our own twisted minds, and the even more twisted minds of those in power.



posted on Jun, 18 2011 @ 12:08 AM
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reply to post by SaturnFX
 

Saturn, have you ever done any reading on "Marcahuasi"? You might find it quite interesting. Adding to that thought. If memory serves, the indians in that area of South America believe there is an entrance to the inner world there. But they refuse to show it to anyone. They will only point you in the right direction. They say anyone who enters there never returns. They also say the people who live there come and go frequently to this day in their ships, and they see them do so.

Kind of lends credence to those large caverns you mentioned. Let me know what you think.



posted on Jun, 18 2011 @ 12:10 AM
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reply to post by Wrabbit2000
 





How is that for fuel to a migraine headache? I know I've had a few "Excedrin" moments in thinking it beyond the purely hypothetical.


Fuel indeed. And food for thought. A lot of possibilities there.



posted on Jun, 18 2011 @ 12:11 AM
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Are you possibly referring to the Nephilim??



posted on Jun, 18 2011 @ 12:14 AM
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Originally posted by Q:1984A:1776
reply to post by Klassified
 


Your points are certainly valid, and have just as much logical reasoning behind them than the theory that this strange phenomenon is caused by interstellar or interdimensional beings. The only counter point that I have to make, is that the likelihood of other beings evolving elsewhere in the inconceivable vastness of THIS universe is much higher than it evolving along side us on this small planet. In my opinion, based on what we know of conventional space travel, the highest likelihood is that we are encountering beings from other universes, if we are in fact, encountering anything other than our own twisted minds, and the even more twisted minds of those in power.


Interesting! A good point, and definitely something else to stir into the mix. Especially the twisted minds part.


Of course, those that were before us could have given us a little push in the right direction. Genetically that is.


edit on 6/18/2011 by Klassified because: ETA

edit on 6/18/2011 by Klassified because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 18 2011 @ 12:17 AM
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reply to post by Klassified
 


I think you are spot on. I consider myself a "believer" I suppose, but I have no particular attachment to the extraterrestrial hypothesis. There seems, to me anyway, to be some kind of non-human intelligence and/or technology involved in the unknowns. That's about all I will confidently say. Beyond that, I'm open to all reasonable sounding ideas, the "cryptoterrestrial" idea you mention (see Mac Tonnies) being one of the best, in my opinion.

And while I think Jacques Vallee's five arguments against the ETH are a little flawed, I find his ideas on the nature of the phenomenon fascinating.

That being said, I see nothing implausible about Earth being visited by extraterrestrials, our (current) understanding of nature notwithstanding. There are several good arguments supporting the possibility - or even the probability - of aliens from outer space (which is a perfectly fine and accurate descriptive term), being able to come here.

The bottom line is that the presence on Earth of a non-human intelligence, possibly far superior to us, is inherently interesting and truly mind-boggling, particularly when you consider the status of this subject in the culture. Where they come from is a secondary consideration.

edit on 18-6-2011 by Orkojoker because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 18 2011 @ 12:36 AM
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Originally posted by Klassified
reply to post by SaturnFX
 

Saturn, have you ever done any reading on "Marcahuasi"? You might find it quite interesting. Adding to that thought. If memory serves, the indians in that area of South America believe there is an entrance to the inner world there. But they refuse to show it to anyone. They will only point you in the right direction. They say anyone who enters there never returns. They also say the people who live there come and go frequently to this day in their ships, and they see them do so.

Kind of lends credence to those large caverns you mentioned. Let me know what you think.


I find it funny that you made this thread and right next to it is another new thread
Antarctica Mysteries Ice free?
Which hints on Admiral Byrds (supposed) accounting during operation high jump of land and forests in the antartic expedition where he was contacted by "aliens" and dragged into these areas where there was a hollow earth experience.
Fascinating stuff, but also interesting coincidence in timing...especially since it was just a couple days ago I first started digging on the Byrd/High Jump information.

Sometimes I swear I am living in some sort of matrix

Anyhow, this came on further from a thread I did a little bit back
Proof of Nordic Alien Female?
And the more the thread went on, and the more I learned of the facts, the more I started to speculate that this may not have come from outer space at all considering the evidence simply demonstrated a low light conditioning for the supposed alien, yet with exceptionally rare human qualities creating a strange set of circumstances regarding earth but not as we know it type outcome...and a subterranian dwelling race explains it easier than outer space off world evolution...

Lot of coincidences...anyone else seeing 11:11 alot?



posted on Jun, 18 2011 @ 01:02 AM
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Nice thread! A few things:

The Hollow Earth Theory got me interested so I did a quick search and realized some valid points about Gravity. If the Earth were hollow it wouldn't be as massive, thus having weaker gravity.

Another part about other advanced life on Earth, very possible. Unless they have access to hard to find elements where they can stay in hiding and construct UFO's, otherwise I would think they would have to have larger brains, and can do complicated math much much faster than any human.

Unless NASA is flat out lying about the environments in our Solar System it is possible they could be from our Solar System. However I do believe there is life in our Solar Systems and possibly advanced life, but I believe the environments are too extreme for Earthlings vice versa Earth would be too extreme for them. Therefore no walking around/human interaction.

I think the logical explanations that science leans towards is ET's from outside the Solar System and our beings from a parallel dimension.

I also think ET's from outside the Solar System is most likely because if in fact our missing link on DNA is from alien manipulation I would assume they would be millions of years more advanced than us at that time in history, therefore using wormhole technology of some sort and they warped to Earth.

I think time travel is a possibility, but if there are endless possibilities then who knows what reality you've traveled to. I am doubtful that UFO's are actual time machines, humans from the future. Because if they were actually coming back and messing with the past, then it would be like the movie Back to the Future, where when they return to their present time, everything is different because they changed the past.



posted on Jun, 18 2011 @ 05:43 AM
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reply to post by Klassified
 
I think this is all key to the intrinsic mystery of the UFO phenomena...it's an intellectual stimulation for anyone who has the inclination. The possibilities remain endless and can only be measured on a scale of probability.

Like others, I consider it wise to keep the major hypotheses at a distance and not become too attached to them.

The idea that at least part of the phenomena is firmly based, and focused, on Earth is reasonable. Furthermore, as part of the process of studying the literature and evidence, most people eventually begin to share the same ideas. For example, Jacques Vallee, Jerry Clark, Mike Swords, Massimo Teodarani and others interpret a terrestrial element. There's also John Keel and Phil Imbrogno, but I'm no fan of either of them. The guys from NARCAP are likewise interested in an Earthly hypothesis with Ted Roe currently investigating a site where unusual lights are 'manifesting.'

I like trying to wrap my mind around the 'humanoid encounter' cases and claims. There are no answers that stand out, but in thinking about them, the intellect gets a serious workout...along with the critical thinking cells. In damn near all accounts that involve some form of communication between an intelligence from elsewhere and a human, there's a theme of environmental awareness and warnings. These threats and warnings have been trickling in since the early 1960s and cross international boundaries.

If the claims have any substance, they illustrate that elements of the phenomena are definitely interested in the Earth's welfare and continued existence. Whereas some interpret this as being evidence that this 'intelligence/s' are benevolent and care about the human race, it seems more like they are interested in the habitat remaining secure. Perhaps the agenda is dependent on the survival of both?

Of course, every single 'humanoid encounter' might be explained in psychological terms. It's yet to be determined the causal factors that provoke the experiences. They could be liminal, consciousness-type experiences instead of encounters with 'others.' They could be a technology manipulating the thought-processes to perceive an experiential message? They could be actual physical encounters with the folk from elsewhere...

What really got me to consider the Earthly origins of UFOs was reading about the 40s and 50s UFO waves and flaps. I read the NICAP, APRO and FSR periodicals from the period and books by Keyhoe, Ruppelt and Hynek etc. I listened to the audio from contemporary radio shows. The impression I'm left with (at least in recent months) is like that of disturbing an ants nest. It seems like the UFO Phenomena went into a higher gear as soon as we got airborne (WW2 foo fighters), developed serious bombs and began the Trinity Tests. The flurry of activity continued in spurts until the late 60s and has tailed off considerably since.

To me this is suggestive of a watchman technology that is already based on, or nearby, Earth. It doesn't necessarily need to require life-forms, but in speculation, could be something that's been around longer than we have. If any of the 'humanoid encounter' accounts are genuine and relate to UFOs, it would imply that this technology can shape our perceptions. By the time we get to this level of speculation, we're knocking on the doors of what consciousness and reality are...which is what the guys mentioned earlier have been doing for years.

It's intellectual stimulation (masturbation lol) that crosses sciences and philosophies and none of it will get us closer to knowing WTF has been going on...or otherwise.



(Starred and flagged and sorry for posting a TLDR-style reply)



posted on Jun, 18 2011 @ 08:13 AM
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OP,
Anything is as good as anyone's imagination.
My imagination tells me, Hell it could be protective energy in some sort of life form that may not even live in our dimension.
They could be earthlings just not humans, buzzing around erupting volcano's, playing with our nuke facilities or foo'n with our planes.
If we can think of it, then there is always a possibility.
what if, we humans build a quantum computer in 3015 that is so advanced it builds a photon light energy ball that actually lives or becomes living which then becomes the protective energy we see or classify as a UFO today since this photon ball entity can travel through dimension and time to help guide the world so that it makes it to it's birthday.

Why don't these things(UFO's) prove themselves? Maybe they don't because at this time they don't really exist but are here to make sure that one day they will exist.



posted on Jun, 18 2011 @ 08:18 AM
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reply to post by Klassified
 


First off let me thank you OP, this is an excellent thread and one that is sorely needed. Far too many times in the past on this site I have lamented at the 'True Believers' who no longer question the provenance of the UFO phenomena and instead argue about which Galactic Council the UFOs may represent. I'm especially happy that someone has mentioned Mac Tonnies' Cryptoterrestrial hypothesis that he laid out in his posthumously published book (titled The Cryptoterrestrials). While I don't 100% accept the theory (neither did Tonnies for that matter), it definitely goes along way to explain many of the more peculiar aspects of the UFO phenomena, the best example being the UFOnauts apparent preoccupation with human reproduction. If you haven't read his book I highly recommend it, sadly it is much too short and Tonnies was taken from us far too soon.

Anyway thank you so much for this thread, star and flag for you.
edit on 18-6-2011 by countduckula24 because: spelling

edit on 18-6-2011 by countduckula24 because: still spelling



posted on Jun, 18 2011 @ 09:03 AM
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reply to post by SaturnFX
 

Sounds like you have some synchronicities going on there Saturn. My life seems filled with them right now. Another phenomena I find quite interesting.

Nordic Females: Could this experience in 1897 be Nordics? Or just foreigners in a balloon?


"...I was wandering through hills east of Springfield, Mo., and coming to the brow of a hill overlooking a small clearing in the valley a short distance below me I saw a sight that rooted me to the spot... I could not believe my eyes at first... There in the clearing rested a vessel similar in outline to the airship shown in the _Post-Dispatch_ a few days ago and said to have been taken in Illinois... "Near the vessel was the most beautiful being I ever beheld. She was under medium size but of the most exquisite form and features such as would put to shame the forms as sculptured by the ancient Greeks. She was dressed in nature's garb (both were naked) and her golden hair, wavy and glossy, hung to her waist, unconfined except by a band of glistening jewels that bound it back from her forehead... She was plucking the little flowers that were just blossoming... with exclamations of delight in a language I could not understand. Her voice was like low, silvery bells and her laughter rang out like their chimes. In one hand she carried a fan of curious design that she fanned herself vigorously with, though to me the air was not warm and I wore an overcoat.

Mystery Airships...



posted on Jun, 18 2011 @ 09:20 AM
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reply to post by game over man
 

All good and interesting points to make. The idea that "they" are from here originally, and have been around far longer than we have, just simplifies matters so much, and answers so many questions for me. Not that it doesn't pose some problems too. But certainly no more than if they're from out there somewhere. And maybe less.

But you bring some thoughts to the table worthy of consideration.



posted on Jun, 18 2011 @ 09:39 AM
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reply to post by Klassified
 


This is one of my theories.

Are 'Aliens' Dinosaurs & Survivers of an Earthly Cataclysm Returning Home?

I think the picture is complicated. There are aliens visiting Earth. However, lots of what is popularly believed t be alien simply isn't.



posted on Jun, 18 2011 @ 09:42 AM
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reply to post by Kandinsky
 

And a TLDR I enjoyed reading. Glad to see your input on this. You have touched on something that I have burned a few brain cells on myself. And at first, I saw it as evidence against those who spoke of it. But then, I began to have similar thoughts to your own. They're concern for the earth is because it either is, or once was their home too.

The ants nest is a great analogy. And the timing apropo. Watchman technology. Interesting you would bring that up. Makes me think of the "Black Knight Satellite". Supposedly Ronnie Reagan told someone it was from a previous civilization to our own. Though there may not be a shred of truth to that. But someone thought such a rumor was worthy of spreading.



It's intellectual stimulation (masturbation lol) that crosses sciences and philosophies and none of it will get us closer to knowing WTF has been going on...or otherwise.


Indeed it is. And if my mind would let me. I could be happy with "It's all black projects and military prototypes". But then these other little things rear their heads and mess up my whole "its all modern man and TPTB" paradigm. And I find myself trying to connect the dots again. Especially from a historical view.



posted on Jun, 18 2011 @ 09:56 AM
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reply to post by countduckula24
 

You and Kandinsky have both mentioned some names I'm not familiar with. And I'll be looking into those. Thanks for your thoughts on this. The reproductive angle is another one that I find peculiar. And originally considered to be sensationalized fluff. But now I'm not so sure.



posted on Jun, 18 2011 @ 10:06 AM
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reply to post by Pimander
 

Excellent. And an excellent thread too. This could indeed explain much. It would also explain their need to be scarce among us. Too easily recognizable. And given our violent tendencies toward the unknown...

The possibilities are endless obviously. And often times I am tempted to say the simplest explanation is usually the best. Sometimes what we perceive as over reaching and complicated may in fact, be the simple truth. No matter how fantastical it may seem at the time.

edit on 6/18/2011 by Klassified because: correction



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