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The Last Official Piece of Evidence...

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posted on Jun, 17 2011 @ 07:23 AM
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The more I browse through the ATS Forums, the more I convince myself that Aliens have never made contact.

  • Every documentary refers to the same old story of Roswell, Area 51 and so on. These alleged crash & visitation sites have never produced any evidence (from my knowledge) which could be considered significant in un-covering the truth. It always seems to be he say, she say.

  • Every video which claims to have captured a genuine UFO can either be identified or is such a pathetic/poor recording of a light in the sky that it has no chance of being identified anyway.

  • Every witness statement seems to relate to one another, each with its own slightly unique twist added.

  • Every official government document which refers to the Alien/UFO Phenomenon has a missing paper trail before anything significant is found.

    I consider myself very open minded. I have experienced my own UFO sighting, which admittedly still has me questioning myself over what I saw. However, the more time I spend reading up on the Alien/UFO Phenomenon the more I become skeptical.


    My questions to ATS Members are as follows:

    1. What was the last physical piece of evidence to be disclosed to the public?

    2. What is the most recent damning piece of evidence to be disclosed to the public?

    3. Has a textured UFO ever been captured on tape and not been identified?

    The reason for me asking these questions is that i absolutely love the topic of Aliens & UFO's. However, i find myself drifting towards the skeptic’s corner.

    I need someone to show me some decent evidence that will have me scratching my head & reinstate my belief in the Alien/UFO Phenomenon. I understand it is allot to ask of someone, but i simply do not know where to begin.

    Thanks in advance,

    TrixXxtaR




  • posted on Jun, 17 2011 @ 07:32 AM
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    I am skeptical also of fantastic claims. Having that said ,two people of interest you should read about are Nikola Tesla (antigravity) and Rear Admiral E. Byrd. There has not been ANY disclosure in the past except films and conjecture....



    posted on Jun, 17 2011 @ 07:49 AM
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    I'm in agreement almost 100% with the OP. While becoming more and more skeptical about individual sightings as they are reported, deep down I do believe that there are genuine "unknowns" that have been witnessed.

    I too hate that each documentary aired always falls back on/uses Roswell as either a lead-in to the show or as the "told ya so" point to fall back on when all the other evidence comes up short.

    Then you have shows like UFO Hunters where these idiots go searching for evidence of something that happened over 30 years ago.

    Last night one of the Mysteryquests eps was on where they "investigated" Area 51. They spend an entire DAY on Tikaboo peak.

    Good job guys. With roughly a dozen or so sightings over the past 18 years in this area, I'm sure spending 1 day, no...4 HOURS eyes-on in that area will certainly capture Anything that might be flying around.

    The entire subject has now been made a side-show used for nothing but cable-TV shows to cash in on.

    They you Bruce Macabee, Jim Delitoso(sp), Linda How, Jaime Maussan, Nick Cook, Stanton Friedman and all the other "talking heads"



    posted on Jun, 17 2011 @ 07:55 AM
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    reply to post by TrixXxtaR
     


    I'm with you and it's still a big puzzle. Sure there are countless witnesses and testimonies, even by highly trusted people, but often leaving nothing but their word. It's hard not to believe some of them as years later, they are still bewildered by their experiences. The National Press Club announcement last year was one example.

    I can think of a video clip that fits your criteria, yet I don't like to mention it because of skeptical flamers who are very offensive. It's a shame to feel this way on a conspiracy forum.

    I remember ATS way back when we were all on the same team.



    posted on Jun, 17 2011 @ 08:11 AM
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    reply to post by TrixXxtaR
     





    The more I browse through the ATS Forums, the more I convince myself that Aliens have never made contact.


    I will not believe that ET is coming here until i see evidence that 100% proves that. Saying that, the evidence for unexplained ufo's flying around our air-space is overwhelming. What they are, we don't know.




    Every documentary refers to the same old story of Roswell, Area 51 and so on. These alleged crash & visitation sites have never produced any evidence (from my knowledge) which could be considered significant in un-covering the truth. It always seems to be he say, she say


    This is not true. There are plenty of ufo documetries that talk about of cases apart from Roswell, Area 51 and so on.




    Every video which claims to have captured a genuine UFO can either be identified or is such a pathetic/poor recording of a light in the sky that it has no chance of being identified anyway.


    Again, i have seen footage and photos that are very interesting. Whenever we do see clear footage or photos, de-bunkers will say its a hoax because its too clear. So, you can't win really





    Every witness statement seems to relate to one another, each with its own slightly unique twist added.


    Again, this is not true. How many ufo cases have you studied?




    Every official government document which refers to the Alien/UFO Phenomenon has a missing paper trail before anything significant is found


    Its a fact that some governments have covered up ufo cases. You have to ask yourself why? Why are they so intent on making the subject a joke when they know that this is a real phenomenon?




    I consider myself very open minded. I have experienced my own UFO sighting, which admittedly still has me questioning myself over what I saw. However, the more time I spend reading up on the Alien/UFO Phenomenon the more I become skeptical


    The problem with the ufo subject is the fact that there are so many people who believe everything they see,read, or hear. Also the fact that there are many hoaxes, frauds in this subject, and this makes it harder. But there are some great cases out there. Cases you just can't dismiss.




    1.What was the last physical piece of evidence to be disclosed to the public?


    2.What is the most recent damning piece of evidence to be disclosed to the public?


    If you are talking about ufo evidence, then the evidence is overwhelming, like i said. There are photos, and footage that show ufo's. The militery sightings alone from around the world will tell you that something strange is going on here. What it is, we just don't know, but it annoys the hell out of me that there are still people out there who say that ufo's are a load of rubbish, when clearly, this is not the case.




    3.Has a textured UFO ever been captured on tape and not been identified?


    Yes they have, and photos too. But like i said before, you can't win. If its too fuzzy, its no good. If its very clear, then its a fake





    The reason for me asking these questions is that i absolutely love the topic of Aliens & UFO's. However, i find myself drifting towards the skeptic’s corner.


    There are some decent skeptics on this board, and they have changed my mind on a few cases, but its the de-bunkers i can't stand. In my opinion, they are as bad as the hardcore believers. Both driven by belief





    I need someone to show me some decent evidence that will have me scratching my head & reinstate my belief in the Alien/UFO Phenomenon. I understand it is allot to ask of someone, but i simply do not know where to begin.


    Why show you? If you are interested in the subject, then surely you have seen enough cases to make your own mind up. Don't let anyone do it for you.

    Here is a good documentery that someone posted on another thread




    posted on Jun, 17 2011 @ 08:41 AM
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    reply to post by TrixXxtaR
     


    I know the feeling but don't fret, there are some good cases out there. You might want to take a look at the Belgium case from 1989/1990. Here's an overview.

    Being skeptical of extraordinary claims is a good thing btw



    posted on Jun, 17 2011 @ 08:50 AM
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    Modern day there isn't that much absolute evidence. (As in it's hard to look at some of the cases and just say "Wow, that is perfect proof")
    I mean yea there's blurry videos, pictures, and documents, but that's just not enough to make everyone believe.
    The most definitive evidence would be in ancient times. Their sculptures, texts, art, even their structures that they created. There's more proof in the past than there is today even with the technology we have.
    edit on 17-6-2011 by MyCigs because: Few typos



    posted on Jun, 17 2011 @ 08:53 AM
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    You people like to pick and choose your argument rather than encompass the whole of the situation.
    We have millions of personal sightings.
    Thousands of pictures (before the cell phone and Photoshop)
    We have military and civilian reports by the thousands.
    Hundreds if not thousands of people have reported indications of having been abducted when they have absolutely nothing to gain from speaking out, in fact, usually to their loss.

    We have Roswell and the mountains of data that indicate that such did happen even if you are tired of hearing it repeatedly.

    We have many governments around the world that have gathered data on the matter for decades. Some of those have been released in the last couple of years. True, nothing definite is revealed, but then again, they don't dismiss the concept that these things are ET ships. In fact, it seems obvious they are trying to tell the world something in a backhanded manner.

    Science is telling us almost daily that earth-like planets are out there and some not too far away.
    Concepts of the limitations on space travel being the speed of light are also falling by the wayside. Enstein was right to a degree, but limited in what physics can allow.

    The 1989 Begium triangle case possible was one of our super-secret craft, but its capabilities are exactly those of witnessed, radared and photogrgraphed UFOs. --So how were they developed? OMG! not reversed designs?

    Finally, there is the single example of the US governerments continued coverup of the whole UFO business which has been document time and time again.

    As I've said repeatedly in these threads, you skeptics have not a leg to stand one. The matter is closed. ETs/UFOs exist here and now.

    You cannot deny all of the evidence so you pick on one aspect and try to demolish it. That tactic no longer works. The game is over, ETs exist, and when we are really, if ever, they will be acknowledged.

    (I like this new clever tactic of saying, "Well, I was a believer, but since they ain't landed yet, I'm now sorta a skeptic." Therein you point out a major part of the problem: so-called human logic.)



    posted on Jun, 17 2011 @ 09:35 AM
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    Just because there isn't HD video of an event, doesn't mean it didn't happen. There are plenty of cases which had amazing craft viewed by reliable witnesses also witnessed on radar, and from the ground.

    Check out the Tehran UFO of 1976, for example. Cases like that imo, are THE proof that we are indeed, being visited.



    posted on Jun, 17 2011 @ 09:41 AM
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    reply to post by TrixXxtaR
     


    Well, I don't know the answers to Your questions, but I am convinced by the anomalous artifacts, legends, Sumerian Tablets, The Terra Papers, and even the recent translation of the Bible ( www.thechronicleproject.org... ) lead Me to strongly believe that in fact Sub-T and Extra-T "aliens" are working even now amongst Us.

    Just sayin'.



    posted on Jun, 17 2011 @ 09:46 AM
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    reply to post by Amaterasu
     


    I agree, and feel some contact gets made it may not ALL be documented or even recorded by those who manage contact.



    posted on Jun, 17 2011 @ 10:01 AM
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    reply to post by TrixXxtaR
     




    The more I browse through the ATS Forums, the more I convince myself that Aliens have never made contact.


    Hmmm.... really? Are you sure?

    A tip: SEARCH AGAIN! And better....


    Seriously, I invite you to have a look to this thread www.abovetopsecret.com... realized by one of the most smart, brave and brilliant member of Above Top Secret: Justin, alias Jkrog08 (R.I.P. friend...)


    Maybe you can find your answers...
    edit on 17-6-2011 by Arken because: (no reason given)

    edit on 17-6-2011 by Arken because: (no reason given)



    posted on Jun, 17 2011 @ 10:35 AM
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    reply to post by Arken
     


    Thanks for linking that thread.... can't believe I haven't seen that one!!

    To the OP.... sounds to me like you haven't done enough research on the topic and a little too much "browsing"

    No one is going to give you a spacecraft for proof.... but having said that ... it is painfully obvious that UFOs exist and are some appear to be not from this world.

    If you don't come up with that conclusion after reading all you can about every aspect of this subject... ie ... History, Archeology, Anthropology, and ..UFology ...then you either can't trust a single person on this planet or you just aren't comprehending it.



    posted on Jun, 17 2011 @ 10:41 AM
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    There is evidence and proof but sadly the PAB got of their arses and pulled their fingers out after they got the fright of their life's when Roswell gave them a severe kick in the butt;After Roswell the cover up and denial juggernaut wheeled in into action on many levels including the main stream media and the character assassination formats that was then and still is so effective today in silencing those who speck out be they civilian witnesses, military witnesses and scientific individuals who dare show any real interests or voices that challenge the "no ET visitation and no evidence" brigade;

    The abduction side of Ufology has many cases that contain levels of high strangeness and the works and investigations of the late Dr John Mack cannot be over looked or discarded, true Mack did say that this abduction mystery contains elements that he perceived as more than just so called ETs abducting people but at the same time he did NOT rule that possibility out;Are we dealing with ET intelligence's that posses technologies that surpass our current scientific understandings and so the the evidence will never fully be understood on a physical level or perception or do we have military and governmental intelligence's that are so effect and so well organised that all possible proof and evidence beyond doubt that would prove ET visitation and their reality has been successfully debunked, ridiculed and covered up since after Roswell;I for one would never chuck the baby out with the bath water so to speak on ET visitations having taken place on several occasions,to much smoke for there not to be fire;

    Evidence does not always come in the physical forms or formats, circumstantial evidence has a big part to play here as does the hundreds of credible military witnesses who have came forward with their own personal experiences ,are we to automatically reject their statements out of hand , for was in not them who where in those positions to have so much better clarity and knowing than people on a internet forum;

    Witnesses are a important part of all juristic courts of law and their testimony's can condemn a person to freedom or prison, why should it be any different to the testimony's of these military and civilian witnesses who have came forward to date regarding UFO sightings,reports or the knowledge that some of these military witnesses have been privy too and shared;Timothy Good in his books has gathered a wealth of circumstantial evidence from military sources that point to very real phenomenon that is entering and leaving RESTRICTED air space of various nations at will;Now those that are not adherent to the conspiracy of a secret government in any form or perception that could be manipulating various governments and military and using stealth technology in civilian populated areas have a option here , either that this secret government is a reality and that UFOs are stealth technology or if not then the other potion or possibility is that SOME UFOS are ET in origin;

    It is one or the other here , cannot have it both ways i feel;What i believe we are perceiving and seeing here is a mixture of terrestrial stealth technology and advanced ET technology, now who is in the real positions of knowledge ect to differentiate between the two , military witnesses ,(sources), or the ordinary person on an internet forum;(no disrespect intended to the ordinary person;

    In the below video Tim Good explains the reason for the "NEED TO KNOW" formats that keep a very tight lid on any real evidence of ET origins of some UFOS getting into the main stream or public perceptions;Also a good read of Tims books is recommended too to see just how far the rabbit hole of the UFO enigma goes;





    Recommend books below from Tim Good;


    Timothy Good's first book, Above Top Secret: The Worldwide UFO Cover-up (1987) became an instant bestseller, and is regarded widely as the definitive work on the subject, together with the fully revised and updated book replacing it, Beyond Top Secret: The Worldwide UFO Security Threat (1996), which remained for five weeks on the Sunday Times bestseller list.


    link; www.google.co.uk...



    edit on 15/07/2010 by K-PAX-PROT because: (no reason given)



    posted on Jun, 17 2011 @ 10:44 AM
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    Originally posted by gchrome
    I am skeptical also of fantastic claims. Having that said ,two people of interest you should read about are Nikola Tesla (antigravity) and Rear Admiral E. Byrd. There has not been ANY disclosure in the past except films and conjecture....


    And where do they lead to?
    To the Nazi UFOs!
    Why do you think that UFOs visit nuclear missile facilities and put them out of order? This happened several times during the cold war in both the US and the former USSR.
    There is evidence enough, just just have to look for it.
    What I recommend is to read older books (before 1980) about UFOs and view videos and pictures from before CGI was available. That stuff is a real eyeopener.



    posted on Jun, 17 2011 @ 12:41 PM
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    Originally posted by Aliensun
    We have millions of personal sightings.

    Add mine to the list. But I didn't see any aliens piloting the crafts.


    Thousands of pictures (before the cell phone and Photoshop)

    Only a few of them proving without a doubt that UFOs are real. Still no aliens though.


    We have military and civilian reports by the thousands.

    Dropping the civilian part - why do you suddenly decide to believe the military? Many of you people complain about the government and DOD keeping information secret, but when some of them come forward and start speaking - you decide they're telling the truth? For me, and I'm a bit lonely in this, none of the military/government officials who have come forward and have spoken about aliens wake trust in me - money can buy everything, and when you were once in the decieving game, you never go out completely.


    Hundreds if not thousands of people have reported indications of having been abducted when they have absolutely nothing to gain from speaking out, in fact, usually to their loss.

    Scientific investigation continues showing that hypnosis can and often creates false memories. Add to that sleep paralysis and sleep/night terrors. Oh, and the fact that about 90% of humanity are complete idiots with no ability to make conclusions, decisions, and research on their own (must be the idiot box telling them what to think). Btw, being on ATS isn't an indication at all, of being a part of the other 10%



    We have Roswell and the mountains of data that indicate that such did happen even if you are tired of hearing it repeatedly.
    Roswell did happen and I'm quite convinced an advanced aircraft was involved, and not a weather balloon. But where are the aliens?


    We have many governments around the world that have gathered data on the matter for decades. Some of those have been released in the last couple of years. True, nothing definite is revealed, but then again, they don't dismiss the concept that these things are ET ships. In fact, it seems obvious they are trying to tell the world something in a backhanded manner.

    Imagine a world where there are a few people "in-the-know" who have close to unlimited resources and abilities to control mass information. Those have in their hands a rare advanced aircraft technology, the ideas about which were stolen and developed in the early 20th century. This technology puts them dozens of steps ahead of all of their enemies and it's very important to keep it a secret. And what better way of doing that than creating a myth and fooling most of the people to believe in otherworldly visitors piloting these advanced aircrafts?

    I'm not saying this is the case. But what's more likely, an advanced alien species visiting planet Earth (and it's important to note that we still don't have the information on how rare exactly life is in the Universe) or someone thinking of a lying scheme driven by people's greed for power and money? I am sure that both exist in the Universe, but I'm much more familiar with the data and information about the greed, rather than the alien species, so, I'd take that as the more probable scenario..



    As I've said repeatedly in these threads, you skeptics have not a leg to stand one. The matter is closed. ETs/UFOs exist here and now.

    What does skeptic mean? I advise you to look it up in the dictionary and deny ignorance. Otherwise, such statements make you look VERY closed-minded and... excuse me but... not so bright.

    My problem with people of your kind is the following - you say you want truth, but you don't know how to seek it and I'm quite convinced even if you get to the truth, you won't be able to handle it, as shown in the previous years of the ET/UFO forum.

    And on top of that you are very arrogant stating that ETs/UFOs are here and now - this almost looks like a game for you. Well, pal, lemme chime you in, although rarely, some people out there do experience something really weird and very real, something that can't be explained by conventional aircraft technology. Some of these people have enough brains to start seeking for the truth in the proper way, questioning everything and looking at all the aspects and possibilities, non-bias investigating, etc. Time passes by, and these people, being smart enough, hit a roadblock, just to find out they're on the fence, since none of the information and facts presented can point for sure at one explanation or another regarding the origin of these crafts.

    And suddenly you appear and shout out loud "Ze aliens are here!". Excuse me for not being beamed up by what we saw and not meeting the ETs first hand (we tried it but they didn't seem to be cooperative). By the moment this happens, I won't have the evidence that I need to prove to me ETs from another planet are the pilots of the UFOs and by then I will still be on the fence, questioning everything and suffering from migraine just for thinking so hard about all of this. As Carl Sagan once said, "Why is it always necessary to be aliens from another planet? There are so many other explanations that are as probable, and at the same time are much more inspiring and amazing.".Obviously this isn't a direct quote, but he has said various things in that line of thinking numerous times and even wrote a book about this.

    And you thought you were open-minded...



    posted on Jun, 17 2011 @ 12:47 PM
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    Well there is no Definitive proof but its more than likely the only conclusion you can come to, especially when you look at the early sightings.



    posted on Jun, 17 2011 @ 06:22 PM
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    Originally posted by TrixXxtaR
    The more I browse through the ATS Forums, the more I convince myself that Aliens have never made contact.


    You browse ATS forums to educate yourself on the UFO subject? Good luck with that. No wonder you are a skeptic.


    Every documentary refers to the same old story of Roswell, Area 51 and so on. These alleged crash & visitation sites have never produced any evidence (from my knowledge) which could be considered significant in un-covering the truth. It always seems to be he say, she say.



    (from my knowledge)
    should read: to my knowledge.
    In any case, that is a very telling and accurate statement about you. If you lack the motivation to actually research the subject, you will never get any answers, they will never be spoon fed to you.

    What a shame you are tired of "the same old story of Roswell and Area51". Need something new and exciting eh? Then go read new ATS threads.

    Has it ever dawned on you that out of the thousands of UFO sighting reports, all it takes is for ONE to be an ET visit and it's case closed? In fact it's already happened, but that's not good enough for you. You crave the "new" stuff. A.D.D. a problem?

    Are you aware Roswell was not an isolated "incident"? That the entire 1947 summer was a flying saucer invasion? That they were seen and recorded doing 15,000 mph and cutting corners on a dime? Well neither did I, until I got off my duff and went out and investigated it.

    Same goes for Area 51. Did you go investigate the story or just read web pages about it?

    Maybe the reason there is so much to read about those 2 cases is they indeed happened as described. If you go investigate them for yourself and quit relying on others to spoon feed it to you, you just might get the answers you are supposedly looking for.



    posted on Jun, 17 2011 @ 07:03 PM
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    Thanks for everyone’s comments, interesting read!


    What I wish to gain from this thread is some insight into what is worth searching for, something that will have me asking more than the usual questions. Admittedly, i have not dug as deep as i imagine many of you have..

    Oh and I’m in no way attempting to cuss at the true believers, I’m simply asking for some guidance.





    Originally posted by Jay-morris

    Again, i have seen footage and photos that are very interesting. Whenever we do see clear footage or photos, de-bunkers will say its a hoax because its too clear. So, you can't win really


    I've seen photo's which have puzzled me, and I’ll agree that many get written off too quickly without having a true expert’s opinion on it. A couple photos that spring to mind are Stonehenge 1990 & Devon 1972.


    Originally posted by Jay-morris
    How many ufo cases have you studied?

    I have not as such studied any cases - more read thoroughly over them and come to my own reasonable conclusions. I've covered a majority of the historic cases, though what I’m after is a broader approach.


    Originally posted by Jay-morris
    What it is, we just don't know, but it annoys the hell out of me that there are still people out there who say that ufo's are a load of rubbish, when clearly, this is not the case.

    Don’t get me wrong, I of course believe in UFO's, it's the link between them & aliens that i struggle with.




    Originally posted by cripmeister

    I know the feeling but don't fret, there are some good cases out there. You might want to take a look at the Belgium case from 1989/1990. Here's an overview.

    Many thanks
    I'll be having a good look at this one tonight!




    Originally posted by MyCigs
    The most definitive evidence would be in ancient times. Their sculptures, texts, art, even their structures that they created. There's more proof in the past than there is today even with the technology we have.

    Could you give me some names or links on the cases that would be worth looking at if it’s not much trouble?




    Originally posted by Aliensun
    As I've said repeatedly in these threads, you skeptics have not a leg to stand one. The matter is closed. ETs/UFOs exist here and now.

    As long as it’s always denied by the government it never will exist in mainstream society, at least until it’s truly overwhelming.



    Originally posted by Aliensun
    (I like this new clever tactic of saying, "Well, I was a believer, but since they ain't landed yet, I'm now sorta a skeptic." Therein you point out a major part of the problem: so-called human logic.)

    Take a chill pill.. Please do not take my opinions as a bashing or even bash me for them. I'm speaking my mind whilst trying to look for some guidance towards cases that will open my eyes!




    Originally posted by Amaterasu

    Well, I don't know the answers to Your questions, but I am convinced by the anomalous artifacts, legends, Sumerian Tablets, The Terra Papers, and even the recent translation of the Bible ( www.thechronicleproject.org... ) lead Me to strongly believe that in fact Sub-T and Extra-T "aliens" are working even now amongst Us.

    Many thanks for your contribution, I'll certainly enjoy looking over these!





    Originally posted by Arken
    Seriously, I invite you to have a look to this thread www.abovetopsecret.com...

    Top notch - Soo much information there, thanks!




    Originally posted by A51Watcher
    If you go investigate them for yourself and quit relying on others to spoon feed it to you, you just might get the answers you are supposedly looking for.

    Please read over my previous comments.

    Thanks for the good old bashing over nothing. Though you raised a valid point regarding me not doing my own research, hence why considerate folks compile websites for those who don’t poses the gift of time.



    Again, many thanks to those who contributed with links etc..




    posted on Jun, 17 2011 @ 07:32 PM
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    reply to post by TrixXxtaR
     


    Wasn't even close to a bashing. Your saving grace was the qualifier (to my knowledge) or
    I -would have- really gone at it. No need for me to re- read it. If YOU re- read it perhaps you will discover why I and several others replying here have detected a large amount of condescension based on lack of knowledge, and have replied directly to that point. Your whole OP reads very similar to the thread, "Show us just one good UFO photograph", as if there were none to see, and that is why you are taking heat for it from many.

    You might note by my nick, and the 2 links in my signature, that I am indeed educated on the Roswell and Area51 case. In fact if you read the list of all my replies shown in my profile, you will see that I always reply with a thoughtful and considerate reply to anyone with sincere questions on any of these matters. On the other hand you will note I respond to uneducated debunkers and other attention seekers, with facts and not with "stuff I heard from another guy". Notice on all occasions how they ALL suddenly shut up and disappeared after my reply. (Now THOSE were a bashing). They prefer to go after easy targets and went back to their usual hunting grounds.

    Sorry, but there are not many cases you can take to the bank. But the few that are solid, are real hair- raisers.

    On more than one occasion, and on more than one thread, I have posted what those are, and what related evidence exists. Note I answer all sincere questions, and am of course prepared to back it up.



    edit on 17-6-2011 by A51Watcher because: the usual




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