Pre-tribulation, Mid-Tribulation, or Post-tribulation rapture?

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reply to post by jmdewey60


So? I don't see anywhere in the scripture that says the Soul is the spirit? The Soul is the body. Show me another scripture that says something like that. 3-4 scriptures, no less..

Enoch: Taken by God,did not return.

Elijah: Taken by God to heaven via a whirlwind, returned as John the Baptist, again at the transfiguration, and will return in the future to speak against the Antichrist.'

Paul: Taken to heaven by God, returned. (Paul stated this in his writings)

John: Taken to heaven by God to show him the future, returned.

Moses: Died, but returned at the transfiguration and will return in the future to speak against the Antichrist.

reply to post by daikaiju


Goes to show how much you know about scripture.

Which heaven did these people go to?

2 Corinthians 12:2

King James Version (KJV)

2I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.

There are 3 HEAVENS. The 1st heaven is where we are at. The 2nd heaven is where the moon and the stars are. The 3rd heaven is where Jesus and the Father are. And Jesus said in John 3:13 that nobody has ever been to where He is at.

John 3:13

King James Version (KJV)

13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

reply to post by daikaiju


Where does it say Moses will return to speak against the Antichrist? Where does it call him by name?

reply to post by HolyandClean


Again with you being rude and arrogant,not very christlike,

I listed what the Bible stated about these individuals, YOU tell me where they went.

reply to post by HolyandClean


I find that the soul is neither the spirit nor the physical body but a spiritual body taken after this physical body ceases to function.

Matthew 10:28
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
While this body doesn't immediately help to differentiate between the physical and spiritual bodies I percieve that one's body is just temporal and exists only in the this plane of existence but the soul is everlasting and is only able to perish by the judgement of God. You may interpret this differently but this is my interpretation.

John 3:5-6
"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."
This, too, I find to help prove my point that this body cannot attain salvation through its own works alone but by the grace of God, and it cannot ascend to Heaven but that the soul crafted by the Holy Spirit of God.

John 4:23-24
"But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."
This is a stretch so bear with me please. In the beginning God made man in His image but I say it was not in the outward physical appearance did God express this but inwardly. We have the Spirit of God with us always that manage that our souls be brought in Heaven, but man reject this salvation for their own personal pleasure.

Romans 7:22-25
"For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."
As the previous verses have been from our Lord I have sought myself to find verses from Saint Paul for he was a very good and blessed apostle. I suggest in presenting these verses that the physical body, though not inherently evil, allows itself to sin through complusion and ignorance and that salvation is almost void for it to experience the everlasting (save Enoch, Elijah, and our Lord who were translated) but rather after the death of it the soul ascends for fellowship with God.

The Bible is up to speculation to many people, what you say can be interpreted differently by me and what I use as scripture to defend my point you can interpret differently, please respect each other's interpretations even if you see ignorance by this.

I have provided four pieces of Scripture through mere chance and probably could have done better had I thoroughly perused Scripture more but I hope you will understand my stance.

God bless you who do well in His name and follow His commandments. Remember to not let anger direct you and you mistakenly damage that which you were trying to defend, friend, have compassion.

reply to post by JeshurunAndronicus


Yea.. you right, but those last 3 scriptures had nothing to do with the body/soul.

I get angry when false prophets come around They spread their poisonous doctrine, and the worst part is they actually believe in what they are preaching! So my anger is righteous.

Also, you must understand, when Jesus ascended into heaven, HIS WHOLE BODY went with him.

reply to post by HolyandClean


I know this. But Jesus was also without sin and no-one else cannot escape the possibility of sinning. While John speaks no one who is born of God can sin he also admits men will sin occasionally and we can only escape this after repentance towards God in heart and truth.

Men cannot escape sin while they are alive but only after they are dead are they free from sin.

Romans 6:4-7
"Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin."

We both know how beautifully and truthfully Paul writes. We cannot escape sin but must strive to not sin. We can only serve God in the Spirit and this is without the body. While Jesus Christ could ascend to Heaven with His body we must remember He was both man and God and we must embrace the presence of God within us that we might be acceptable to Him.

Galatians 2:20
"I am crucified with Christ: neverthless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me."

1 John 3:23-24
"And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us."

I am sorry that I ramble and turn into many directions but I do hope you understand my position. May God be with you, man.

reply to post by HolyandClean

So? I don't see anywhere in the scripture that says the Soul is the spirit? The Soul is the body. Show me another scripture that says something like that. 3-4 scriptures, no less..

I'm not saying that. There were one or two other people saying you can divide a person into three parts. I was commenting on your rebuttal to that argument. I think of the spirit as more like an alternative universe which has no physical dimensions, where our soul can abide for varying degrees of our time. The Bible will say someone was, "in the spirit." meaning they were on another plane of consciousness. They were not in the third part of their person.

Originally posted by HolyandClean
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

So? I don't see anywhere in the scripture that says the Soul is the spirit? The Soul is the body. Show me another scripture that says something like that. 3-4 scriptures, no less..

That is because the soul isn't the spirit.

We were made in the image of God, three in one. Body, soul and spirit.

The soul is not the body, the body is the body. The body turns to dust.

reply to post by jmdewey60

where our soul can abide for varying degrees of our time.

Our soul and spirit are eternal. Einstein showed this with the general theory of relativity. The Soul and Spirit have no mass therefore is unaffected by time.

reply to post by JeshurunAndronicus

Men cannot escape sin while they are alive but only after they are dead are they free from sin.

That's why we can all say:

"I have been saved, I am being saved, and I will be saved."

It's the "3 Ps" of salvation.

1. I have been saved from the penalty of sin by Christ's redemptive work at Calvary. (past tense use)
2. I am being saved from the power of sin in my daily life by the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit. (present tense use)
3. I will be saved from the presence of sin in my mortal body when I am resurrected and given a glorified body like Christ's. (future tense use)

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Einstein showed this with the general theory of relativity.

I give that argument zero stars.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Einstein showed this with the general theory of relativity.

I give that argument zero stars.

Sorry, but time is a physical property. It varies with mass, gravity and acceleration.

The spirit has no mass, therefore is is unaffected by time.

Originally posted by daikaiju
Enoch: Taken by God,did not return.

Elijah: Taken by God to heaven via a whirlwind, returned as John the Baptist, again at the transfiguration, and will return in the future to speak against the Antichrist.'

Paul: Taken to heaven by God, returned. (Paul stated this in his writings)

John: Taken to heaven by God to show him the future, returned.

Moses: Died, but returned at the transfiguration and will return in the future to speak against the Antichrist.

And Philip.

I could make an argument for "one" other person.

The rapture of the church, the "body" of Christ.

reply to post by HolyandClean

Also, you must understand, when Jesus ascended into heaven, HIS WHOLE BODY went with him.

Correct, Jesus was the "firstfruits" of the resurrection.

reply to post by HolyandClean

There are 3 HEAVENS. The 1st heaven is where we are at. The 2nd heaven is where the moon and the stars are. The 3rd heaven is where Jesus and the Father are. And Jesus said in John 3:13 that nobody has ever been to where He is at.

That's true, prior to His death and resurrection the departed souls and spirits of the elect went to paradise or "Abraham's Bosom" which was in the Earth and separated by a great abyss from Sheol/hell. Remember in the parable those in Abraham's bosom could see the wicked dead in Sheol but there was an impassable canyon separating the two places?

that all changed after Christ's resurrection when he took those in Abraham's bosom with Him to heaven. Now after Christ's ascension it says "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." The Lord is in heaven now, so are the souls and spirits of the departed elect.

but at the time Christ spoke those words you mentioned there was no men in heaven, they were in "Abraham's Bosom/Paradise."

reply to post by NOTurTypical

That's why we can all say:

"I have been saved, I am being saved, and I will be saved."

It's the "3 Ps" of salvation.

1. I have been saved from the penalty of sin by Christ's redemptive work at Calvary. (past tense use)
2. I am being saved from the power of sin in my daily life by the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit. (present tense use)
3. I will be saved from the presence of sin in my mortal body when I am resurrected and given a glorified body like Christ's. (future tense use)

This thread looks dead, but I just had to congratulate you on your perfect understanding of Biblical salvation. In all three forms too. We may disagree on any other things, but this one subject we agree completely on. Which is really all the matters in the long run. Other doctrinal debates are just for fun God will straighten all our interpretation out one day (soon)

reply to post by KJV1611


Much appreciated. But i got that from Chuck Missler commentaries. And I gave the CliffNotes version but it's the same thing. I don't really like hearing people say they are "saved" when they mean "born-again" or "justified" by His blood. It's just a little too confusing.

Justified is a much better term for having one's sins forgiven them by His shed blood.