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Pre-tribulation, Mid-Tribulation, or Post-tribulation rapture?

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posted on Jun, 18 2011 @ 09:50 PM
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reply to post by novastrike81
 
I hope you are not going to say that there is a future Jewish Messiah who will do all of that.
I would rather think that David was somewhat delusional in his old age and dreamed up some fantastic descendants who, of course God would give strength to.
The fact is that David's dynasty came to a bitter end with Nebuchadnezzar.
The Maccabees stepped in to save Judaism from the Greeks and established the Hasmonean dynasty of priests, who were the family that Mary came from.
So the true warriors of the type of David, were where Jesus came from who had a prototype in John Hyracanus who ruled but in the spiritual realm and left the civil government to Antipatar, the father of Herod.
Well we know what happened, and my personal opinion is that Jesus was following that earlier example and said, My kingdom is not of this world. Meaning that he left the wars and such to others while he concerned himself with the eternal things. The difference between him and his predecessor is that Jesus himself is eternal, so no need of any more dynasties, because he fills the role that David envisioned, the part of sitting at the right hand of God. A future person coming on the scene and claiming to be a Messiah, I would think would be at the right hand of Satan, and not someone we should follow, no matter what sort of promises you are given.




posted on Jun, 18 2011 @ 10:12 PM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by novastrike81
 
I hope you are not going to say that there is a future Jewish Messiah who will do all of that.
I would rather think that David was somewhat delusional in his old age and dreamed up some fantastic descendants who, of course God would give strength to.
The fact is that David's dynasty came to a bitter end with Nebuchadnezzar.
The Maccabees stepped in to save Judaism from the Greeks and established the Hasmonean dynasty of priests, who were the family that Mary came from.
So the true warriors of the type of David, were where Jesus came from who had a prototype in John Hyracanus who ruled but in the spiritual realm and left the civil government to Antipatar, the father of Herod.
Well we know what happened, and my personal opinion is that Jesus was following that earlier example and said, My kingdom is not of this world. Meaning that he left the wars and such to others while he concerned himself with the eternal things. The difference between him and his predecessor is that Jesus himself is eternal, so no need of any more dynasties, because he fills the role that David envisioned, the part of sitting at the right hand of God. A future person coming on the scene and claiming to be a Messiah, I would think would be at the right hand of Satan, and not someone we should follow, no matter what sort of promises you are given.




No sir, I was just looking for validation from scripture that would validate Jesus as the King Messiah. That is what Christians claim he was after all. That was the purpose of those questions. Should have been more clear.



posted on Jun, 18 2011 @ 10:22 PM
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reply to post by novastrike81
 


Great questions! I bet he can't answer them.



posted on Jun, 18 2011 @ 10:23 PM
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reply to post by SaberTruth
 


I don't WANT TO BE A CHRISTIAN. Being a Christian means you can do whatever you want without no consequence, as long as you believe in Jesus.

I want to keep God's laws, statutes, commandments, holy days, and the faith in Jesus.

I've told you to message me, so we could talk this over. But you are being so hostile towards me, and I haven't done nothing to deserve that kind of attitude.



posted on Jun, 18 2011 @ 10:26 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


According to my research, the descendants of David are still alive today. If you want to learn more about this, go read the book called, "Holy Blood, Holy Grail". It's a very interesting read. It claims Jesus didn't die on the cross, and that he secretly lived and had children. But I do not believe that happened. I believe Mary and Joseph had more children, and their descendants are still living to this very day.



posted on Jun, 18 2011 @ 10:28 PM
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Originally posted by HolyandClean
I don't WANT TO BE A CHRISTIAN. Being a Christian means you can do whatever you want without no consequence, as long as you believe in Jesus.

No, it does not. There is no "license to sin", per Rom. 6:2. Anybody teaching such a thing is a false teacher and a "hireling". You don't show any familiarity with the essentials of what it means to be saved.


I want to keep God's laws, statutes, commandments, holy days, and the faith in Jesus.

Good luck with that; see Acts 15:10 and Col. 2:16. Sarcasm again.


I've told you to message me, so we could talk this over.

No you did not. I saw no such request.


But you are being so hostile towards me, and I haven't done nothing to deserve that kind of attitude.

Look in the mirror, pal. YOU are hostile and have "that kind of attitude". And I won't put up with it.
edit on 18-6-2011 by SaberTruth because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 18 2011 @ 10:55 PM
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Originally posted by HolyandClean
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


Show me scripture or get out of here. I don't care about your opinion.


Relax, take a few deep breaths.


Show me where Jesus in Matthew 24:1-28 where he was coming to rapture the church.


It's not there. Jesus's apostles didn't ask Him when he would return for the church, they asked Him when he would return to the Earth to fulfill the Messianic role prophesied in the OT for the Day of the Lord. Then they asked when the end of the age would be. Why would Jesus tell them when the "catching away" would be when they never asked Him that? In fact, how would the apostles know about the "catching away" when it wasn't even revealed until Paul did so in Thessalonians?


Cause the apostles asked him what would be the sign of his coming, and the end of the world.


Correct for the first part. And Jesus told them the signs of His coming to Earth. The "catching away" Jesus doesn't set foot on Earth. Those alive meet Him in the air. And and the apostles didn't ask Him when the end of the world would be, the Greek word is "Aeon", and is better translated AGE. The Earth will never perish, but will be renewed by fire after the Great White Throne Judgment.


Surely if he was coming to rapture the church, he would have told them.


The mystery of the rapture wasn't told to His followers until the Holy Spirit revealed it to Paul when he was writing Thessalonians.


You are just a liar, like Harold Camp.


Quit with the personal attacks. I've already said I'm not lying. That would entail me knowing X to be true and telling you Y instead. Calling me a liar without just cause is bearing a false witness.



posted on Jun, 18 2011 @ 10:59 PM
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Originally posted by HolyandClean
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


The only bad thing about it is when you die, you are dead, until the resurrection. Nothing glorious about death.


That is not true. Did Jesus tell the repentant thief on the cross that he would be with Him in paradise that day or in the grave in soul sleep? Jesus said that man would be with Him in paradise that day. Paul said to be absent fgrom the body is to be present with the Lord. "Soul sleep" is not taught by anyone in the Bible.



posted on Jun, 18 2011 @ 11:08 PM
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Originally posted by novastrike81
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


But Jesus didn't sit on the throne of David. I do have a few questions though:


I never said Jesus did. That's what His 2nd coming is for. The "Millineal Reign".


When was Jesus anointed as king by a prophet or a high priest?


I'll point you in the general direction. Who was John the Baptist's father? What was his anointing? Paul said Jesus was a king and priest after the order of Melchizedek. He's the Great High Priest (Hebrews) and King of kings. (Revelation)


When did Jesus sit on the throne of David?


He hasn't yet, precisely my point. Gabriel promised Mary He would. Daniel saw the kingdom of the Messiah that would smash all human governments and grow into a kingdom that would encompass the entire world.


When did Jesus lead the people into great compliance with the law?


He fulfilled the law, in fact Jesus WAS the law.


When did Jesus gather the exiles and rule the nations?


That's what he is coming to do.



posted on Jun, 18 2011 @ 11:11 PM
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But I think this conversation is getting wildly off-topic.

Does anyone still want to discuss the catching away?



posted on Jun, 18 2011 @ 11:12 PM
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reply to post by HolyandClean
 



I don't WANT TO BE A CHRISTIAN. Being a Christian means you can do whatever you want without no consequence, as long as you believe in Jesus.



Your Bible is missing the book of Romans?

That's weird.



posted on Jun, 18 2011 @ 11:13 PM
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Originally posted by HolyandClean
reply to post by novastrike81
 


Great questions! I bet he can't answer them.


Already did.

But can we get back to talking about the catching away?



posted on Jun, 18 2011 @ 11:24 PM
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reply to post by HolyandClean
 

go read the book called, "Holy Blood, Holy Grail".
Read it when it first came out, a quarter century ago.
I have a copy of it in my library, but you need to take it about as seriously as Brown's book, the DaVinci Code, which was lifted from Holy Blood Holy Grail.
Edit to add: it does not matter if there are individuals from that bloodline.
What was foretold is an unbroken dynasty, and it did not happen.
Restarting a new dynasty would not fulfill it.

edit on 18-6-2011 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 18 2011 @ 11:55 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


I asked for scripture to be used in answering my questions, not your own interpretation of the scripture. Unless you skimmed over it and missed that post, then that's fine. Please, answer with the scriptures mentioning Jesus as the King Messiah, etc..
edit on 18-6-2011 by novastrike81 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 19 2011 @ 12:03 AM
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Originally posted by novastrike81
reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


I asked for scripture to be used in answering my questions, not your own interpretation of the scripture. Unless you skimmed over it and missed that post, then that's fine. Please, answer with the scriptures mentioning Jesus as the King Messiah, etc..


You're not providing me scripture so why are you using special pleading?

Maybe you missed my post, but we're all getting off-topic, this isn't a thread to discuss whether or not Jesus is the Messiah, but the catching away of the body of Christ.
edit on 19-6-2011 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 19 2011 @ 03:17 PM
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reply to post by HolyandClean
 


Wow...your bible knowledge is so full of holes and personal opinion. No dividing the word of truth. No spiritral understanding whatsoever


I was going to happily correct you on EVERY single post you made with a King James Bible, but NOTurTypical is doing a fine job as it is.

You keep your good works and personal righteousness and we will see who gets to heaven, and who are left behind trusting in their own goodness. Its sad really.

Good thing I am trusting fully in Christs righteousness and NONE of my own.
edit on 19-6-2011 by KJV1611 because: i can



posted on Jun, 19 2011 @ 03:32 PM
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reply to post by KJV1611
 


AMEN!!! I'm thankful for His righteousness, I seem to be lacking any of my own!



posted on Jun, 19 2011 @ 06:49 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


Ok, show me one person who ascended into heaven like Jesus. When Jesus went to heaven, his whole body went with him. Show me someone who has died where their body went into heaven. Good luck!

Oh, i'm still going to show you the scriptures.

John 3:13

King James Version (KJV)

13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

NO MAN has ascended up to heaven, only He who came down from heaven, Jesus Christ. Yup, there's more.

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6

King James Version (KJV)

5For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

6Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.


The dead don't know ANYTHING, cause they are dead! Everything they ever were, gone forever, until the Lord resurrects them.

WHY WOULD JESUS NEED TO COME BACK AND RESURRECT THE DEAD IF THEY ARE ALREADY IN HEAVEN. There are too many holes in the going to heaven doctrine. Jesus said the kingdom is coming to earth. So you going to call him a liar? Think carefully on your next reply.

Ecclesiastes 9:10

King James Version (KJV)

10Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

There is NO WISDOM IN THE GRAVE WHEN YOU DIE.



posted on Jun, 19 2011 @ 06:50 PM
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reply to post by KJV1611
 


Game over.

James 2:14-24

King James Version (KJV)

14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Revelation 14:12

King James Version (KJV)

12Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.



posted on Jun, 19 2011 @ 06:52 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


Matthew 24:1-31

King James Version (KJV)

Matthew 24

1And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

2And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand


16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25Behold, I have told you before.

26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Ok, So we have the apostles asking Jesus about his second coming, and the end of the world. Jesus starts to name signs that would happen to indicate his 2nd coming. Notice before he mentions his 2nd coming, he says the great tribulations must happen first. JESUS ONLY MENTIONS HIS 2ND COMING AT VERSE 29-31. So, according to Jesus, everything in verse 4-28 must happen before he can come, THAT INCLUDES THE GREAT TRIBULATIONS. Go deceive someone else with your garbage.




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