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Do moral values survive after the SHTF?

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posted on Jun, 17 2011 @ 06:14 PM
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Urban areas, especially those who have populations who live an entitlement life, will be mayhem. Without supplies given or perhaps foodstamps or other sustaining benefits, there could be riots beyond any of our historic records in this country. However, I feel that SHTF happens all the time now with mass layoffs, food price increases, gas price increases, cost of living is a slow steady SHTF.

Compare our country to others less fortunate. Mexico City is a huge SHTF scenario now. Many cities in India are filled with millions living in poverty and .... doing just fine. As long as they have moderate supply of food, they are ok. If we had our video games, cable tv and sugar drinks taken away, we will riot. It seems we are not even close to going "Bangalore" here, but rather our worries are of going "Detroit". Detroit is a perfect scenario of loss of jobs and decay and it seems to be surviving better than many cities in Africa and Asia.

We're spoiled. SHTF is a fallacy and is movie/conspiracy driven. We have food, we have each other. Unless we have a enormous dust-bowl international drought with foods becoming scarce, we should be fine.

However, we should learn one thing. Stop having so many babies. Population control is needed to a degree where we can handle the number of children we have without mortgaging our future. If you're worried about SHTF scenarios, you definitely want to stop having babies. It's interesting that most SHTF worries and conspiracies are in the most prosperous country in the world, the USA. Maybe it is just that many of the conspiracy sites make many of us uneducated about how the world works.

It's clear and I hope you all know this. There are far far more good people in the world than bad. Good people don't riot, don't steal, don't fight. They cooperate, they work hard, they try. They're not type-A jerks who say they are going to "steal to survive". They just survive by doing the right thing. The world was not built by type-A jerks and when the SHTF, those people will be filtered out.
edit on 17-6-2011 by bonaire because: (no reason given)




posted on Jun, 17 2011 @ 06:35 PM
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reply to post by camaro68ss
 


I for one would never loot from someone else, but if I came across an abandon store, I'm looting everything I can, hell wouldn't you? and as far as morals go, morals apply to every situation,good or bad..oh yeah good post by the way,



posted on Jun, 17 2011 @ 07:13 PM
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Originally posted by bonaire
Urban areas, especially those who have populations who live an entitlement life, will be mayhem. Without supplies given or perhaps foodstamps or other sustaining benefits, there could be riots beyond any of our historic records in this country. However, I feel that SHTF happens all the time now with mass layoffs, food price increases, gas price increases, cost of living is a slow steady SHTF.

Compare our country to others less fortunate. Mexico City is a huge SHTF scenario now. Many cities in India are filled with millions living in poverty and .... doing just fine. As long as they have moderate supply of food, they are ok. If we had our video games, cable tv and sugar drinks taken away, we will riot. It seems we are not even close to going "Bangalore" here, but rather our worries are of going "Detroit". Detroit is a perfect scenario of loss of jobs and decay and it seems to be surviving better than many cities in Africa and Asia.

We're spoiled. SHTF is a fallacy and is movie/conspiracy driven. We have food, we have each other. Unless we have a enormous dust-bowl international drought with foods becoming scarce, we should be fine.


However, we should learn one thing. Stop having so many babies. Population control is needed to a degree where we can handle the number of children we have without mortgaging our future. If you're worried about SHTF scenarios, you definitely want to stop having babies. It's interesting that most SHTF worries and conspiracies are in the most prosperous country in the world, the USA. Maybe it is just that many of the conspiracy sites make many of us uneducated about how the world works.

It's clear and I hope you all know this. There are far far more good people in the world than bad. Good people don't riot, don't steal, don't fight. They cooperate, they work hard, they try. They're not type-A jerks who say they are going to "steal to survive". They just survive by doing the right thing. The world was not built by type-A jerks and when the SHTF, those people will be filtered out.
edit on 17-6-2011 by bonaire because: (no reason given)


the big cities would be hopeless unless they had strong civic organizations.

ancient Athens was burnt to the ground by the Persians, their society survived and rebuilt.

neighborhoods infested with gangs and crime before the SHTF, without morals would be apocalyptic.

areas of small towns and small cities would recover first if they have good community governance.

but in a real SHTF, some people would feel like their world had completely collasped, even under the best of conditions.

a lawyer who is the best golf player in town, could find himself being at best a menial on a scavenger team.

and his golf course a camp for refugee's tent city.

cooks, gardners, electricians, mechanics, doctors, nurses, needed for recovery.

children would be the most valuable asset of a community seeking to recover.

we see in Japan, where older workers are volunteering to do the dangerous radio active work.

keeping the children healthy while rebuilding is not only moral, but logical.



posted on Jun, 17 2011 @ 07:31 PM
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Of course there will be moral values but it will be few and far between the times you witness it unless you are in a group with similar values. You will find more people who go with their primal instincts which throw morals out the window.



posted on Jun, 17 2011 @ 07:46 PM
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The game changes when you have a family IMHO.
I have two boys, 9 and 5. If their hungry and I
run out of supply's, I'll do what I have to, I tell
you that. Only if I need to. And the extent, I'll
go? Depends, as far as I need to, I suppose.



posted on Jun, 17 2011 @ 10:19 PM
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Id say yes and no. As much as we see ourselves to be a civilized species, the illusion of such that is established by law so that we can live together with so many others, it seems to go out the window when facing a life or death situation. Simply put, those that cant or wont do what they need to do to survive wont survive. If something like this would happen and all law does indeed go out the window, the prepared simply may not be prepared enough. Some will thrive in this system becoming kings of the scattered small communities that would spring up throughout the nation or world. Others will follow. Eventually some sense of 'normal' would return and thus the cycle would continue again. We are what we are though. Intelligent animals. Nothing more.



posted on Jun, 18 2011 @ 12:31 PM
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Originally posted by camaro68ssI read Survival threads and often wonder to myself if people will have any moral values after the SHTF. Some threads I read talking about bugging out and living on foot, raiding convoys and stealing from others. When The SHTF will you be able to not loot and steal from other?


Did the European people who came to America loot and steal from the Natives who were already here? It wasn't even a SHTF situation. Did they force a crappy religion onto the Native people and destroy artifacts/relics and cultural documentation in the name of that religion - artifacts which would have been priceless if found today?

If by "moral values" you mean "Will people still try to force other people to follow a crappy outdated religion and try to destroy those other people if they don't follow?" - yeah, some probably will.

If people are still following destructive religions if the SHTF, then there will be looting and pillaging.



posted on Jun, 18 2011 @ 01:32 PM
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reply to post by CryHavoc
 


you raise a good issue, think about the countrless other religions and extremists that will go unmonitored etc, they will be rampent to do as they please to non believers and people that don't follow/believe in what they want them to.



posted on Jun, 19 2011 @ 04:34 PM
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My Uncle told me stories of Vietnam where American soldiers would get out of a plane/helicopter and start machine gunning Vietnamese children that were running towards them. When I asked why on earth they would do that he explained that the mothers would pull the pin on hand grenades and have the children run to the G.I.s. Now some people would think killing children is immoral but what if those children were going to be the death of You and themselves anyways?

I personally have a pretty lax sense of morals and also am lacking a well developed sense of empathy. I am ASPD for sure and may even be a Disempathetic Type sociopath(although I do lack the trait of being manipulative and a habitual liar that seems to go along with sociopathy.)

Morals are subjective and I can honestly say that if society were to break down there isn't much I wouldn't resort to to survive. I doubt I'd rape anyone since it is not required to survive but I also am not so sure I wouldn't just ignore some child walking up to me asking to be taken in, since even children are/can be out for themselves and can be used by adults to gain entry to your stronghold.

I am positive that if armed men/women were approaching my shelter I would shoot first and ask questions later, just to be on the safe side.

My daughter actually told me today while watching "dual survival" that she would rather die than drink water from a source that had leaves in it. I seriously doubt that if it came down to it she would retain her current outlook.

None of us can positively say what we will or won't do until we are put into a survival situation (especially an us or them situation), my outlook currently is if it's me or them then it's going to have to be me. What good am I to my family if I die trying to save myself a little guilt?


edit on 19-6-2011 by Adamanteus because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 12 2012 @ 09:51 AM
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My family and I have been storing supplies now for a year for 15 adults and 13 children. That includes things other than food also.
Just 2 days ago, my daughter and I were trying to figure out how much water, food and resources were needed for 28 people just for one day. ....and using all essentials at bare minimum, the numbers were staggering!! Truly a scary thing...!

Added...I know this is an old thread, but I found it very informative.
edit on 12-1-2012 by Bendii because: added



posted on Jan, 12 2012 @ 09:57 AM
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reply to post by camaro68ss
 


When the SHTF and your children are starving you'll do what you have to do to keep them alive-you'll eat things you wouldnt probably even consider and you might have to do things you are morally opposed to. And in every fictional scenario Ive read it seems like the rapists, pedophiles and thugs tend to survive or else the scenario brings that out in them. It basically comes down to will you do whatever it takes to keep your family alive?



posted on Jan, 12 2012 @ 10:04 AM
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Originally posted by Heartisblack
Hell no, I'll rape,pillage and burn. After the SHTF there ain't no authority but yourself. Everybody take care of their own.



i would never rape. but to survive, i would do whatever i had to to get food, water, and shelter.

-subfab



posted on Jan, 12 2012 @ 10:14 AM
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The thing about "I'll do whatever it takes to feed my children line of thinking" is that you dig yourself in a hole automatically. Instead of thinking of worse case scenarios where you have to steal or kill to provide for your children, why not think of cooperation with others in similar positions? No one family can survive on their own. It's the "hunker" down shoot anything that comes close to my territory mentality that will starve your children or get them killed.

Only when everyone works and shares together, complimenting a variety of skills, will they survive. If you have supplies because you prepared yourself, how long will those supplies last you? A year? It's not unlimited and the sooner you connect with your community and form committees which share resources and duties for security the higher your chances are for survival not only for yourself but for your children as well (along with everyone in the community).

There is only so many bullets you can have, there is only so much you can store. No one can do it alone in a SHTF scenario and the quicker you want to live by the gun (me against the world) the faster you will die by the gun.
edit on 12-1-2012 by Chewingonmushrooms because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 12 2012 @ 11:24 AM
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Originally posted by Chewingonmushrooms
The thing about "I'll do whatever it takes to feed my children line of thinking" is that you dig yourself in a hole automatically. Instead of thinking of worse case scenarios where you have to steal or kill to provide for your children, why not think of cooperation with others in similar positions? No one family can survive on their own. It's the "hunker" down shoot anything that comes close to my territory mentality that will starve your children or get them killed.

Only when everyone works and shares together, complimenting a variety of skills, will they survive. If you have supplies because you prepared yourself, how long will those supplies last you? A year? It's not unlimited and the sooner you connect with your community and form committees which share resources and duties for security the higher your chances are for survival not only for yourself but for your children as well (along with everyone in the community).

There is only so many bullets you can have, there is only so much you can store. No one can do it alone in a SHTF scenario and the quicker you want to live by the gun (me against the world) the faster you will die by the gun.
edit on 12-1-2012 by Chewingonmushrooms because: (no reason given)


It depends on the scenario-a documentary on the History Channel "After Armageddon" provided a scenario where a pandemic wiped out a large portion of the people and it followed a family as the escaped ahead of the looters and had to survive on their own until they did hook up with a community and lived kind of like the 1800's where the whole community farmed and worked together-BUT for a time they were on their own and did have to survive that way. And as I said that scenario was a pandemic-it didnt damage the environment the way say an impact, nuclear holocaust, climate change etc. would do. You WILL have to be prepared to deal with others who want YOUR last bottle of water, can of food etc. Yes ideallly afterwards to hook up with a group will be best but until you can if you have children to think of you have to take care of them-and that might mean looting if necessary, say if they needed medicine or something like that. My daughter is everything to me and I will do whatever i have to in order to ensure her survival at any cost. I hope if you have children you would also do whatever to protect them



posted on Jan, 12 2012 @ 11:32 AM
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reply to post by aprilc1
 


I don't disagree with you. That's why I feel it's important to start grouping asap as there is greater strength in numbers. Their might be some situations where that isn't possible, but ultimately for your survival you will have to group in order to have the possibility of making it out alive (along with your family). That is of course unless you live out in the middle of nowhere where you can sustain yourself from the land etc..

But again what do you think will happen when a small group of bandits come across your sanctuary? You might be able to repel them with guns, but what about the next group that comes after them? Bandits will not touch a sizable community unless they are close to equal in size. And there will be far a few bands of bandits of size capable of that. Most people will turn towards the cooperation side which is something they would be more accustomed too. So strong communities with defensive capabilities shared by the whole are automatically at a advantage. They will instead look for survivalists that hunker down and horde food stockpiles which are much easier pickings.

For survival and peace of mind (and community), cooperating, forming trusting bonds of loyalty, mutual dependence and friendship is the true defense in the long run.

Now that all is said and done, it all depends on momentum. I wrote a post on this thread months ago that touches on that subject. Hopefully peaceful cooperation for mutual benefit wins out over groups of looters (dog eat dog) in gaining momentum right after the SHTF scenario.

edit on 12-1-2012 by Chewingonmushrooms because: (no reason given)

edit on 12-1-2012 by Chewingonmushrooms because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 18 2012 @ 04:14 AM
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reply to post by David291
 


I can clearly feel you have leadership genes or are developing them. Be proud of your vision as many people lack it.
People like you, at least, if you can keep it up, should form the new world.

But believe me when I say there will always be people, and always have been, with short vision as the people that would rape and pillage.

Aside from that I understand your body might deteriorate to such state as to where you no longer think clearly but that all can be prevented by working together. Even without morales there are many, many selfish reasons to work as a team. As long as my mind and body is in good condition I will use it that way. If my body deteriorates so badly that I would rape or pillage then God is my witness right now that he may end my life if I ever come to that point.



posted on Jan, 18 2012 @ 04:30 AM
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At this point, I cannot see moral values surviving by more than a thread now, and even possibly surviving at all 2012. Morals will be deeply cherished by the few in hiding waiting for the end. Those in the big cities will be forced for fight all the time or flee. The "country" will be flooded with so many refugees that they will no longer be able to sustain themselves either. It will be worse than you think, I think.

They're already so fragile that the government can commit any number of crimes, and there is rarely any reaction at all other than "We see you doing bad things! You're bad!" by some few "conspiracy nuts" who are just telling the truth. Millions of deal to expand the bank monopoly and put forth a one world currency, and still, it's going on.

Morality has degenerated to the point that the need to defend yourself, and your fellow men, just doesn't win over trying to scrabble for dollars to buy things, even food and heat, while a sinister organization strips your freedoms and lies to you all the time. Evil is good. Good is Evil.

It's already happened behind the scenes, and the final changes are in plain sight.

Morality surviving SHTF? I propose they're gone already except for some individuals who will finally do the right thing, even though it may cost them their lives. Individuals are capable of morality, but American society? Hell most any society now? LOL! I don't see it, except to keep the people in their places.

The biggest gangstas of all run the show, and any who oppose them are crushed, and we still have most everyone convinced they're not working together, oh no, just follow the money, but even then they make excuses. It's very dodo like.



posted on Jan, 18 2012 @ 09:08 AM
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reply to post by camaro68ss
 


with respect - i believe that you and others confuse morality with conformance to morality

morality , in my opinion is truely blind - it counsels the same conduct what ever the situation

conformance to morality , is just that . conformers only act in a moral manner where under observation - or when the fear of discovery and its consequences instill fear in them



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 06:26 AM
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it astounds me how many of you hate the fed, hate the gov, hate the elite, hate *

but when the system breaks youre no better than they are.

ready to steal from your neighbors, rape women, kill people who just happened to be better prepared than you and did you no harm.

all of this except *gasp* work with your fellow man for once.

strength in numbers? ever heard of this term?



posted on Jan, 25 2012 @ 06:29 AM
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Originally posted by thejlxc
At this point, I cannot see moral values surviving by more than a thread now, and even possibly surviving at all 2012. Morals will be deeply cherished by the few in hiding waiting for the end. Those in the big cities will be forced for fight all the time or flee. The "country" will be flooded with so many refugees that they will no longer be able to sustain themselves either. It will be worse than you think, I think.

They're already so fragile that the government can commit any number of crimes, and there is rarely any reaction at all other than "We see you doing bad things! You're bad!" by some few "conspiracy nuts" who are just telling the truth. Millions of deal to expand the bank monopoly and put forth a one world currency, and still, it's going on.

Morality has degenerated to the point that the need to defend yourself, and your fellow men, just doesn't win over trying to scrabble for dollars to buy things, even food and heat, while a sinister organization strips your freedoms and lies to you all the time. Evil is good. Good is Evil.

It's already happened behind the scenes, and the final changes are in plain sight.

Morality surviving SHTF? I propose they're gone already except for some individuals who will finally do the right thing, even though it may cost them their lives. Individuals are capable of morality, but American society? Hell most any society now? LOL! I don't see it, except to keep the people in their places.

The biggest gangstas of all run the show, and any who oppose them are crushed, and we still have most everyone convinced they're not working together, oh no, just follow the money, but even then they make excuses. It's very dodo like.



youre of course assuming that many people will make it out of the cities. why is it when the shtf the first thing that comes to mind is to kill the person next to you and take their stuff. people dont do these things unless its already in their nature.




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