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Do moral values survive after the SHTF?

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posted on Jun, 17 2011 @ 09:18 AM
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BTW, I'd like to recommend a film called The Last Valley (1970) - Written and directed by James Clavell, it's about the Thirty Years' War.
How does this relate?
Well, from 1618-1648 the "S" certainly hit the "F" and it was the end of the world as most Europeans knew it.
Imagine that for decades on end, you dealt with marauding bandits, neo-feudal warfare, crop failures, famine and pestilence, fluid national boundaries and the shifting allegiances of armies, kings and clergy.
The film is an outstanding meditation about who has the "superior" moral structure in a world seeming to lack one altogether. It is stocked with meaty dialogue, peopled with interesting character actors, and headlined by two eminently watchable actors - Michael Caine and Omar Sharif.
It's little-seen, but a must-see.




posted on Jun, 17 2011 @ 09:25 AM
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People will survive and a large portion will eventually revert to tribal or feral practices. Strong survive, weak die off. However, from a moral standpoint mankind would be at a crossroads; everyone will have to ask themselves, are you an animal or a man? (or woman obviously) You see it is a mental thing, morality is a learned human behaviour, so is ethics. Compassion is not, it is inherent and can either be honed or surpressed. Two people will emerge from a situation such as SHTF. The first will be the enlightened, those how attain a new level of existence and understanding of what it means to have choice and forthought, and the others will become barbaric, relying on instinct and brutality to survive. Those with forthought will constantly be fighting for survival against the barbaric, which leads one to question, does it matter which side you choose? Me personally? I would choose enlightened and make sure all the knowledge I had of technology, history and science were documented to the best of my ability. I think i would carve it in crystal so it would last centuries, only to have someone else thousands of years from now find it and be like, "Wow, so they had cars back then too huh? No way! There is no way ancient people would have the same technology we have today..." And the cycle repeats itself over and over and over and over.......



posted on Jun, 17 2011 @ 09:37 AM
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Very good question OP. I think it will be divided into two groups, both coming together but for different reasons. One group (not literally; more like a mentality) will form for the purpose of having greater force to loot, rape and steal. The other group (again mentality) will form for reasons more towards cooperative, security and survival necessities.

Both will without a doubt clash from time to time. My guess is that morality (or ethics) will indeed survive as long as the latter group comes out ahead. Now there is a possibility that depending on the circumstances, only one group with materialize (either the looters or co-ops) and dominate. In that, if one group gains enough momentum (very soon after SHTF), the members of the opposite mentality will have to most likely conform in order to survive.

Example of the last scenario: Co-op gains momentum from the start and "forces" others from the opposite mentality (only the strong survive) to cooperate and put in their part, or be exiled. On the flip side of it, if the other group/mentality gains momentum from the start, then the co-ops would feel like they are the only ones striving to stay ethical and by no other choice has to compete with others in order to survive.


edit on 17-6-2011 by Chewingonmushrooms because: (no reason given)

edit on 17-6-2011 by Chewingonmushrooms because: (no reason given)

edit on 17-6-2011 by Chewingonmushrooms because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 17 2011 @ 09:45 AM
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I think the movie The Postman is a very good depiction of what will transpire. You will have the evil who pillage and steal to stay alive. Others will band together to form tribes as they know there is safety in numbers and a co-operative has the best chance of survival vs. a lone wolf.



posted on Jun, 17 2011 @ 10:15 AM
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Untell your in a situation you never know what you will do.

My bet is on humans being humans and all bets are off,what did RAMBO say,"when pushed hard enough killing becomes like breathing".We will act according to our predator base instincts................................we always do.



posted on Jun, 17 2011 @ 10:36 AM
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post removed for serious violation of ATS Terms & Conditions



posted on Jun, 17 2011 @ 10:42 AM
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If one family has morals, and the family next door has none, there will be one family left. And they won't have any morals.

Imagine a neighborhood with morals, and an invading smiling horde without any.



posted on Jun, 17 2011 @ 10:44 AM
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Originally posted by Dbriefed
If one family has morals, and the family next door has none, there will be one family left. And they won't have any morals.

Imagine a neighborhood with morals, and an invading smiling horde without any.


I think you are confusing morals with pacifism.



posted on Jun, 17 2011 @ 10:44 AM
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Will morals survive a shtf senario.....Do morels survive today?



posted on Jun, 17 2011 @ 11:00 AM
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Moral and ethics are based upon a filled tummy.

The majority would kill to survive.

We're animals in suits. Period.



posted on Jun, 17 2011 @ 11:22 AM
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History shows there's always a "transition" period after a great economic, political, natural or man-made upheaval. The prepared hunker down & defend themselves. The unprepared scavage & fight over stealing whatever resources are left. The prepared stay out of harms way waiting patiently. The unprepared abandoned everything of meaning towards one selfish end, their own continued existence.

As resources dwindle and desperation grows... the harder it is to watch the foolish, unprepared, innocent and/or fooled people struggle to survive. At this weakened point, two things will find these people: 1. Good/Caring/Godly folks who will find creative ways to help (i.e. teaching how to forage, hunt, fish...etc) that do NOT compromise our provisions and efforts. 2. Militaristic/Arrogant/Bullying monsters who subjugate the unprepared using every dirty trick in the book... as this "transitional firestorm" intensifies.

And no doubt, these two groups will clash at some point. Good -vs- Evil intent. People tend to idealize evil as more fun, intoxicating and desirable... but it imprisons, uses, depletes and eventually turns on you when you are no longer "useful." Good sees the best in all, in any condition, and gives purpose to life. Not as fun or flashy as evil... but meets a deep human need for love, acceptance & community...and healing. And when these two sides clash... that's what's at stake for each side to fight for. You fight for evil because you better or else... or you fight for Good because you want to... for LOVE. And love is a powerful fighting ally in the storms of life.

And like all storms, this one eventually subsides... there are fewer crazed people left to fight, but those who are left are difficult to reason with. They've gone the way of the wild animal... while you have done your best to hold on to your morals, faith & civility. It is only now you can hope to really help others, with great caution, by teaching them lifelong survival, faith and community-oriented skills to benefit all as the rebuilding process begins.
It is now, you teach the next generation about God's love and how he always saves a "remnant" of believers to rebuild life through. It is now you engrain the foolish of what caused this great disaster and build in determination and hope to conquer it.

And thus the human cycle of civilization...growth...stagnation...decay... death and rebirth begins anew, once again.



posted on Jun, 17 2011 @ 11:37 AM
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I dig your writing style, cool first post btw.

Here's a star for you for the effort



posted on Jun, 17 2011 @ 11:37 AM
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Over 30 years ago a wise older man told me: We are always only 24 hours away from complete anarchy.

Then he continued to say: think about it if you or others were not sure that within the next 24 hours you would receive food and/or water what would you do? What would you do if you saw no hope for help coming to you? You would begin to panic and everyone around you would panic also. Panic leads to a complete breakdown of all society. Survival of the fittest kicks in.

Ever since he told me that I've never forgot that fact and plan for basically everything and anything. That meant also having sufficient money in my pocket and in the bank and in investments. I lived and I teach think of the last dollar you received is the last dollar that you would ever get. If you felt that way and planned that way then no matter what happened you'd be fine that is as long as a dollar had any value.

I also lived and planned so that no matter what happens I would be both physically and mentally able to handle any of those terrible things might happen. Meaning I can grow my own crops, hunt & fish, defend myself and my family and have plenty of other assets and/or resources to get by to survive.

In short I also live life as though if there was one person that came out of the bar room brawl alive it would definitely be me.



posted on Jun, 17 2011 @ 12:08 PM
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Good thread so far. I've not read through all of it, but it is interesting to see what people have to say. I agree that there will be phases. The first few weeks/months will be a confusing, crazy time indeed. For those that are prepared, and not in urban areas, this time would be especially important. A plan is always good, but as with any plan there are unknowns. For example, the SHTF and one of your family memebers is stuck in the city, or somewhere away from the family. What then? Load up the truck with a few from your family/group, guns, ammo, and set out on a search party? If the SHTF, communications would likely be down. Martial law would likely be ordered. And all the planning in the world isn't going to help then.

For those who said they will "rape, pillage, and burn" - I will gladly put a bullet through your skull. Please, come to my family's property with that mentality. Heck, I'll let my little sister put a bullet through your head - she's getting to be a really good shot.

For the rest (and I do believe that *most* people would retain SOME morals), I think that after the first wave of craziness, people will start banding together. We're humans. We need other humans for continued survival. I know that in my area, our neighbors are all on good terms with each other, and in a SHTF scenario, we'll have each others backs, so to speak. We all grow our own food, some more than others (we aren't on a farm but some neighbors are), firewood is constantly being chopped and stored, guns are plentiful, we have generators, fuel, batteries, a water source, and most of all - a sense of community. So if/when the SHTF, we have what it takes to survive (hopefully). When those who are less prepared come for help - they will be helped, but they must contribute. All who are a part of the community will work for the community. Anyone who approaches with hostility will be handled accordingly - not with violence, unless it is unavoidable.

Now... if when the SHTF, we have to deal with our own American gestapo trying to steal, pillage, round people up, etc., then I will have ZERO moral conflict with killing any of them who attempt these things. To me, I think that would be a much greater threat than everyday people who are trying to steal to survive.

Tough to really say how one would act in a situation with so many unknown factors. We all like to think we would do the right things, have the right plan, etc.... But when it really comes down to it the best we can do it prepare for the worst and hope for the best.

Edit - I can also envision a scenario similar to the movie Defiance, because I believe TPTB are indeed gearing up for WWIII, and if that was the case, I'd volunteer to be a modern day Bielski. "Do you know Bielski?" "I AM Bielski"
edit on 17-6-2011 by cwilson because: Had another thought to add..



posted on Jun, 17 2011 @ 12:29 PM
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In my opinion we have no morals now, so what would after the SHTF have to do with it?

It will just be worse...

Agree with all the poster saying "survival of the fittest (or preppared)"...



posted on Jun, 17 2011 @ 12:33 PM
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Originally posted by JaeBea
[Snip]


Say what?
ATS seems to be drawing the Yahoo bunch like maggots to carrion.
Go away.
edit on 17-6-2011 by dbates because: Removed quoted text



posted on Jun, 17 2011 @ 01:39 PM
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Originally posted by camaro68ss

I read Survival threads and often wonder to myself if people will have any moral values after the SHTF. Some threads I read talking about bugging out and living on foot, raiding convoys and stealing from others. When The SHTF will you be able to not loot and steal from other?

I personally think that’s messed up to loot and steal. Those people came prepared and you have the guts to steal from them and deny them of life because you were not prepared. I couldn’t do it. If I was that hungry I would hope they would have the same integrity as myself and spear a little food rather than steal it. what are your thoughts

I have higher expectations for humanity. If all morality and law are to suddenly break down when TSHTF, why are people waiting until then? Most people know right from wrong. I think people will come together at that time and help each other out.



posted on Jun, 17 2011 @ 02:15 PM
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reply to post by David291
 


You only have to look at the recent Japanese catastrophe to see that the majority of people are good and decent & will always come together to help each other out. So you needn't worry about humanity being doomed.



posted on Jun, 17 2011 @ 02:54 PM
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reply to post by camaro68ss
 


When civilizations collapse, the looters die first. Eventually the looters band together and get smart. Then the survivors get smarter, band together, and exterminate the lot of them. In the end, the looters end up dead and those who keep their "morals" live on to carry the torch of civilization. Me, I don't believe in morals. But that doesn't make me a looter nor a stealer. It means that there are evil people who get shot, and good people who do the shooting.



posted on Jun, 17 2011 @ 03:08 PM
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Originally posted by Gorman91
reply to post by camaro68ss
 


When civilizations collapse, the looters die first. Eventually the looters band together and get smart. Then the survivors get smarter, band together, and exterminate the lot of them. In the end, the looters end up dead and those who keep their "morals" live on to carry the torch of civilization. Me, I don't believe in morals. But that doesn't make me a looter nor a stealer. It means that there are evil people who get shot, and good people who do the shooting.


Interesing post. Question: what makes people good or evil in your eyes? Looting and stealing is obviously evil according to your post, but what causes one to do so and not the others? Could it be morals
?
edit on 17-6-2011 by Chewingonmushrooms because: (no reason given)



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