You people do know the Bible says we don't go to heaven, or the lake of fire when we die, right?

reply to post by SaberTruth


Not quite sure which side were you agreeing with, Life after physical death, or the dead unconscious soul.
My personal beleive is eternal life through christ. The main point I was shooting for is the fact that not just J.W but a mass of religions use small exceprts outof their chosen volume of sacred law to justify their own claims.
I actually had a JW contradict themselves in the same breath, "You cant take everything in the bible literally, every thing is e bible is literal. If it is truely the infallable word of God, who are we to pick and chose to take literal and what not to. Christ came that we may have life and more abundantly, I feel that is a very bleek out look to believe that when this flesh dies, nothing is of rememberance, and only 144,000 are saved. Might as well put a gun to my head if that were true.

Originally posted by whyamIhere
I understand where you are going.

It's very hard to parse the Bible.

Context is really everything.

Also there are many varying views on this.

You are so right!
I looked it up on the internet and there are over 30,000 religions based or structured on the bible. That is a lot of confusion.
So..if you don't agree with these 30,000, then you can start your own belief system based on the bible.

It's not relevant either way, the bible offers no insight in regards to anything.

Originally posted by Vanais
It's not relevant either way, the bible offers no insight in regards to anything.

How is such a comment relevant in a thread about what the Bible says?
And why are so many one-liners ignored by mods? (I'd do an Alert but that only gets me penalized.)

reply to post by HolyandClean


OP - You are mixing Old Testament up with New Testament Theology. JESUS CHANGED EVERYTHING. When we die in Faith and Service to Christ we will be with him in Paradise. Jesus told the repenting criminal on the cross that he would be in paradise along side him that day. No offense but you need to study who Jesus was and what he did for us all. His sacrifice of blood and life sealed our bond from death and the devil as his followers. I will admit there is some disagreement in the Christian theological schools on this subject...but Jesus said it himself ... Id believe him.

reply to post by Vodo34861


Agree with you on that. Calling people names and insulting them is not the way to discuss a topic.

Evidently the Op really believes in his heart what he is trying to convey to all of us, so much so that he feels it necessary to tell everyone. He is in a place where he is happy right now .
People are very individual and unique in their beliefs and trying to pull someone over to your way of thinking will not work. People can not be swayed as easily as in the past. People actually think things out now, instead of taking the word of some one else.
I have said this before on threads, I have been in 12 different denominations and I am checking another one out. I don't know about it yet, have some reservations on it too.

Originally posted by HolyandClean
reply to post by SaberTruth

 

Show me scripture, or this debate is finished.

er you do realise that you do NOT control the debate................

Originally posted by HolyandClean
Scriptures only people. I don't care what you believe, I only care what the scriptures say.

If you DON"T care what anybody believes, then why put yourself through the trouble of making a thread about the Bible when you know you are going to be in for a lot of negativity? Actually..I think you do care or you wouldn't do this again.
I pretty sure you are extremely devout in what you believe, by what you are posting.

Scripture is scripture, but as I said there are over 30,000 different religions based on the Bible, so many are interpreting it in a different way. I am fairly certain that you believe the one you are in is the right one. Never met a religion that didn't believe that yet.
Be happy in what you are getting from the Bible. You seem to be safe in what you believe and maybe..you are where you should be right now.
The rest of us.??..Well.. we are, who we are and what the future is for us, only we can choose that.

reply to post by HolyandClean


Good post. I just want to say, this is the same type of discussions that Jehovah's Witness bring up saying that there is no punishment for those who are wicked, and that heaven only 144,000 can enter. They are wrong of course, they use the verse from Ecclesiates to claim that the dead know nothing and they are forgotten, which means they go to non-existence.
But what is the problem is you have to rightly divide the word, between the carnal fleshly words and the spiritual. Ecclesiates 9 speaks about the flesh being dead, and your body knows nothing when it dies, it is only a shell or carrier for your soul.

5For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing,

Well because your spirit is removed from the body when you die, so how can a dead body do or know anything? This speaks of your flesh, it is used as a vessel or holding place, and only a temple or Hekal for your spirit or soul. It does nothing but become a holding place for the spirit to dwell in.

for the memory of them is forgotten.

This speaks of the fleshly body once again. Do you remember your great, great, great Grandpa? Not very easily probably. But how bout 1000 years back?Or 2000 years back? Did the memory of your Great Grandpa maybe be forgotten? This part of this verse speaks that the works of that person will be forgotten in time, as like the works of any person on this earth will be forgotten in 1000 or 2000 years and beyond more likely.

As I understand, those who die and are going to eternal life, they enter into a 'sleep state' like a dream state. They are in the waiting quarters or the lobby per say watching the events happening on earth like a movie. They feel no pain, but they do know what is going on. They do know what is happening as I will show you.

The wicked on the other hand, go to a temporary place called Hell or She'ol where they are in chains and torture, and in fire until the day of judgment and the eternal punishment in the lake of fire. They are being prepared for the great day of Yahuwah's judgment on them for eternal punishment and they DEFINATELY know where they are.

This will be a long quote but please read this. This is the story of the rich man and the poor man Lazarus (El'azar).

Luke 16:19-31 The Scripture 1998

16:19 “But there was a certain rich man who used to dress in purple and fine linen and lived luxuriously every day.
16:20 “And there was a certain beggar named Elʽazar, being covered with sores, who was placed at his gate,
16:21 and longing to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Indeed, even the dogs came and licked his sores.
16:22 “And it came to be that the beggar died, and was carried by the messengers to the bosom of Aḇraham. And the rich man also died and was buried.
16:23 “And while suffering tortures in the grave, having lifted up his eyes, he saw Aḇraham far away, and Elʽazar in his bosom.
16:24 “And crying out he said, ‘Father Aḇraham, have compassion on me, and send Elʽazar to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am suffering in this flame.’

The wicked or rich man is in She'ol looking up at Abraham far away, seeing the begger in Abraham's arms and he is in torture in fire. He knows exactly what is going on. In fact, they can speak to each other in their places after they die!!

16:25 “But Aḇraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your life you received your good, and likewise Elʽazar the evil, but now he is comforted and you are suffering.
16:26 ‘And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set, so that those who wish to pass from here to you are unable, nor do those from there pass to us.’

They can see each other across a great chasm, no sure what it is, but they both know who is in a good place, and the other in the bad place.

16:27 “And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, that you would send him to my father’s house,
16:28 for I have five brothers, let him warn them, lest they also come to this place of torture.’
16:29 “Aḇraham said to him, ‘They have Mosheh and the prophets, let them hear them.’
16:30 “And he said, ‘No, father Aḇraham, but if someone from the dead goes to them, they shall repent.’
16:31 “But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Mosheh and the prophets, neither would they be persuaded even if one should rise from the dead.’ ”

The last part here explains that even if someone was raised from the dead, they still would not believe that person of the place of torture. As like happened with the Messiah Yahuwshuwah, He told the people and the Apostles and they didnt believe He was raised from the dead.

Watch these videos for more explanations.

When we die, we all go in line for the final judgment.

This is another one of those arguments where not one person is wrong or right. It would of made for a fanciful discussion if it wasn't posted in a matter-of-fact manner when these things are only subjective.

To add my own two cents, I believe our souls are immortal. I'm not going to pull any verses, lines, etc. out of any holy text to try make it factual because it isn't. It's a belief that won't be proven till we're dead. And I don't think we have access to ATS in paradise.

reply to post by HolyandClean


I must say i love your way of thought,but some of the things you say don't sound very christian at all.
You sound very boastful and angry and you know very well that is not love....I am trying to be a true soldier of God,but it is hard,it is an everyday struggle,and i sin every single day.
You should be more humble and try to praise God with your life instead of praising yourself.

God bless you all

As far as I know the same has been said on this topic for 2,000 years. We humans are from the ground and when we die we return to the ground. The question is whether there is life after death concerning the soul/spirit. Man and religions can talk until they are blue in the face but no one knows the answer to this mystery.

Ecclesiastes is about the futility of life and how you should live in happiness and value each other in love and for the glory of God. In does read rather pessimistic but it does illustrate that life is temporal and we shouldn't live for pleasures but for God. Be happy with your lot in life and don't envy others for theirs.

13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

-Ecclesiastes 12:13-14, the ending. Live a good life in blessedness and for God.

Now, to the real matter. You have said you have read the Bible twice. That is not much. I have read it seven times, but I think it well to mention that just because one has read it many times does not mean one comprehends it well. I think I have been blessed by God to what little understanding I have.

Mentioning the kings of Israel/Judah (I didn't look hard enough to search whether you switched between both, for I saw Solomon and Rehoboam only). Sorry. Mentioning they slept is just another way to say they died. Easy as that, you must remember how the English words were understood back when the King James was translated and not how it is now.

Featuring Sisera, it just said he slept then Jael struck him dead.
Judges 4:21 "Then Jael Heber's wife took a nail of the tent, and took an hammer in her hand, and went softly unto him, and smote the nail into his temples, and fastened it into the ground: for he was fast asleep and weary. So he died."
She was able to put a nail to his temple because he was unable to sense it due to his sleeping.

The Resurrection spoken of by Jesus Christ is a spiritual one. I have found not to interpret Revelations literally but symbolically.

"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." - John 3:3-5

Not many men have been translated to God: save Enoch (And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him. -Genesis 5:24), Elijah (And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. - 2 Kings 2:11) and the Word Jesus Christ.

I find that the resurrection is not be as Christ's was (for who can obtain or maintain like His righteousness?) but that we must live as He has commanded us. John mentions that all men sin but that those who put on Christ are the children of God and cannot sin. We die in sin but we live unto Christ and have our rest in God that he forgive our sins if we repent and we be not condemned by them.

For the Apocrypha, I do not think it necessary to be read. I've read many books of it but I find more enlightening material in the Bible itself.

May God's light shine upon you and seek only His thoughts. Be careful to be high-minded and intolerant to receive correction of a wiser student (though I do not claim I am one). Take what I say into consideration and if you wish to discuss further or I have not fully developed a good response please respond.

May God's love be unto all and His abundant mercies be upon us

Originally posted by HolyandClean
Scriptures only people. I don't care what you believe, I only care what the scriptures say.

and to be honest mate no one cares what you think what a waste of a post pointless dribbling and babbling from an uneducated morone

reply to post by Lazarus Short

Originally posted by Lazarus Short
The original Greek did not have commas. These renderings are equally correct:

"Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."

"Verily I say unto thee today, shalt thou be with me in paradise."

The renderings may both be equally correct, but IMO they are different, depending on the grammatical correctness of the sentence itself.


I have 2 points regarding this…


Firstly, if, and I haven’t had time to confirm this…but if, as you say the phrase, "I tell thee today" was a common idiom in that time and place. Then consider the following verses…

John 3:3
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except
a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. ...

John 3:11
Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify
that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. ...

John 3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water
and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. ...

Mark 14:30
... And Jesus saith unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this day, even in this
night, before the cock crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice. ...

John 21:18
... Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdest thyself, and
walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch ...

Matthew 5:26
Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence,
till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing. ...

Matthew 6:2
When therefore thou doest alms, sound not a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have received their reward

Not once does Jesus, or the Father speaking through him, ever use the phrase, “Verily, verily, I say unto thee today”, followed by what he is going to say next. If he had at least once, used that exact idiom in the past, then I would find it easier to accept.


Secondly, if the verse is viewed as below…


"Verily I say unto thee today, shalt thou be with me in paradise."


By only saying, “you will be with me in paradise”, he doesn’t really tell the man on the cross, when he is going to be in Paradise. I find it hard to believe that it would be said in such an ambiguous manner, as to leave the man wondering, as to when he would see Paradise.

Originally posted by Lazarus Short
Later, on Sunday morning, Jesus told Mary not to touch Him, for he had not yet ascended to His Father. I gather from that that Jesus had not yet been to paradise, so I choose version #2. "I tell thee today" was also a common idiom in that time and place.

Well, my own personal belief is that God spoke through Jesus, and that Jesus is his own person as well, with his own spirit. I believe it was God/Father speaking through Jesus, that said to the man on the cross, “today you will be with me in Paradise”. Which is true, because of his belief on him (Jesus) he was able to enter heaven and be with the Father in paradise, on that day.

Jesus, the “Son of God” was resurrected 3 days later by God, and only then returned to the Father in Heaven.



- JC

reply to post by aka_angrygoose


He might of been tactless with his choice of words, but name calling isn't the way to handle such behavior. If anything, I admire the fact he can stick strongly for his beliefs.

Those who believe in soul sleep are definately in the minority. Religion aside - the entire concept just doesn't fly in light of personal testimony from NDE's, people who can have oobes, and the reporting of paranormal events from forever and from all over the world.

Our spirits definately seperate from the shell they are housed in upon death.

reply to post by AdamAnt


Gee, a bunch of opinion, but less scriptures. smh.

reply to post by Joecroft


Exactly the point!