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Collective Bargaining Law Reinstated by Wisconsin Supreme Court

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posted on Jun, 15 2011 @ 11:10 AM
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Originally posted by SaturnFX
reply to post by TDawgRex
 


Actually, although you make a nice (albeit typical) point, there is a greater point to be made.

if states across the board (since you are talking about private unions and corporations) lock hands and have a wage standard for certain fields of working, then moving from state to state to find the cheapest workforce becomes useless.

The corporations then have a choice...pay a reasonable wage and working conditions, or simply leave the country.

Leave the country they have...and curiously enough, the government rewards companys that outsource...no...this is the real issue here.
Install taraffs, put massive taxes on corporations that outsource jobs that could be done by locals...hit them so hard that they either have to bring the jobs back home, or simply leave the country and stop doing business with them (trust me, someone else will quickly jump in their spot the second they leave...).

No, we should not decide to push our workforce into 3rd world nation style work dynamics for compention because corporations will go elsewhere if they have to pay more than a dollar a day for 12 hour shifts...what needs to happen is for the government to do their constitutional duty to ensure the commerce of the united states by hammering HARD these corporate tards that corrupt the system.

This is a step in the wrong direction, even if it is public unions...


I do agree that corporations that leave the country should be penalized through taxes and tariffs. But I think that unions have become what they once fought against. I'm a skilled worker, but up here in NE Ohio, if you haven't been brought up by a union family, you aren't getting a decent paying job. They shut down worksites here through threats and intimidation just because the companies doing the work are non union.

America has had its share of Tycoons & Barons before, and they are here to stay. I just think new tactics need to be applied. The private unions need to make themselves viable again.

But I am still against Public unions. Municipalities know what they need to do to keep loyal, qualified employees. The ones that don’t, need to be thrown out of office.




posted on Jun, 15 2011 @ 01:43 PM
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Originally posted by ItsEvolutionBaby
Hey everyone is entitled to their very own opinion - I just hope you are as vocal when the execs get their huge bonuses in failing companies and also as mentioned above, tax cuts and more tax cuts for the rich.

The execs getting their huge bonuses from failing companies I am not ok with. Then again they are private companies and who are we to say what they do with their money.

Your comment is way off topic here as it deals with Public Unions.



posted on Jun, 15 2011 @ 04:34 PM
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reply to post by joyride0187
 


journaltimes.com...



MADISON, Wis. (AP) - The Wisconsin Supreme Court handed Republican Gov. Scott Walker a major victory on Tuesday, ruling that a polarizing union law that strips most public employees of their collective bargaining rights could take effect.


Even though Gov. Scott and the GOP faithful and his cronies want to strip the working man of their benefits and ability to collectively bargain for a fair wage.

I will bet a substantial amount that when it comes time for the Gov. and the legislators to vote themselves a sweet pay raise; they will ignore the taxpayers that pay THEIR salary and vote for an obscene "cost of living" increase completely oblivious to the will of the people.

Typical conservative GOP hypocrisy of preferential treatment for the rich and *^%**# the people that actually do the work.



edit on 15-6-2011 by whaaa because: ptptptptpt



posted on Jun, 16 2011 @ 08:24 PM
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Originally posted by joyride0187


This is wonderful news. It was a hard decision to make these changes, but Wisconsin is in financial crisis like most other states in the U. S. and it is not THAT hard on the union worker. He keeps his job. He keeps his pay check without a cut in salary. All he is required to do is participate in his 401K rather than have it free, or contribute to his pension plan a little each pay day - after all it is FOR the employee at retirement, so why not be financially involved like in a 401K. It will save the state tons of money to be able to put sports and music back into schools and hire more teachers to educate their children. That's a GOOD goal. I hope that other states are successful in passing these changes. We HAVE to do something, and that's a good start. Congratulations Wisconsin!!!!!

journaltimes.com
(visit the link for the full news article)



WooHoo, Awesome, honest hard working middle class people are eaten by their own, gotta love it. Cheer some more, soon the shoe could be on your foot.

With regard to pensions, it seems to me that employees involved in a contract (municipal workers) are obligated to adhere to their agreement and employers should also be required to act in good faith and keep there end of any agreements

If an employer says that they will provide X, at the end of a predetermined period of time then they should honor that agreement. In other words, you don't change the rules once the game has begun.

School teachers, Policeman, Fire Fighters do not become civil servants for the pay, the truth is many take large cuts in pay when joining public service. The sole benefit I would think is job security, and and possibly a pension.

In the early 1990's I remember very clearly heckling several friends and relatives who decided to take jobs "with the city". I thought it was funny that I was making 3 times what they were, well guess who's laughing now.

But unlike you, I would not throw them under the bus because I may have fallen on hard times or, some politician believes it's the flavor of the day.

Division of wealth in this country is getting progressively worse, soon there will be a 2 classes the wealthy and the impoverished.

What amazes me most is that people like yourself believe it's a great thing that fellow middle class Americans should sacrifice their pensions (whether 2 percent or 20) , meanwhile trillions have gone to the very same people who are responsible for this distraction. Yes, sorry to tell you this "Wisconsin episode" is nothing more than a distraction meant to cause class division and keep your mind occupied while the real thievery takes place.

You know, honestly we really do deserve whatever happens to us, envy and lack of common sense has become a plague in this country, how sad.

Now jump up and down some more.

BTW 1/10 of 1 percent of "bail out" could have fully funded pensions in your state for decades I would think.
edit on 16-6-2011 by CodexSinaiticus because: spelling



posted on Jun, 16 2011 @ 08:49 PM
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Originally posted by TDawgRex
This from a debate I had last night, slightly modified.

Private unions I am ok with as the company and the union head negotiate the terms and if the company fails because the unions nickel and dimed them to death? Well, that’s the companies fault and now everyone is out of work.

Public unions I am not ok with. Even FDR opposed them.

But do you realize, that Corporations and Companies exist for one thing, and one thing only. To make a profit. I that upsets you for some odd reason, don’t buy their product or service.

If I own a company where my employees are making a quality product and it’s selling well, I will reward them. If I am losing money and they want more, I’ll move the company to where it is profitable again. Or just close up shop while I’m ahead. It’s as simple as that.

And public unions create no profit whatsoever, the public employees provide a service.

Unions have to give a little, otherwise, we’ll all go down the drain together. That is a union I’d rather not see.


I guess there's little profit in providing a sound education to your children, or saving a family member from a fire.

Speaking only for myself these two (2) things are most important to me and priceless. And, I am going to guess that my property taxes are much higher than your own.
edit on 16-6-2011 by CodexSinaiticus because: Spelling



posted on Jun, 16 2011 @ 09:18 PM
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Obviously collective bargaining had to go. I mean the public sector employees in WI agreed to all the other things. You know helping to pay their own pensions and 20% oh their own healthcare. They even willing accepted furblogh (or how ever you say it) days without pay. So obviously their right to be united and bargain as a collect for the good of all employees has to go. People HAVE NO RIGHTS. Look at all these people who simply piss on each other for lack of better words. Cheering the loss of the rights of workers and people. It starts here, wait till this spreads to the private sector. The Koch Brothers have no real interest in politics beyond two things this accomplishes.

1) The biggest campaign donations for Democrats comes from unions and for Republicans it is the Corporations. Take away money for the dems and then the corporate shills can run relatively unopposed thus to ensure better tax cuts and deregulation increasing the bottom line for the richest of the rich.

2) Setting a standard for the generally unguided hate of the tea party members. If unions are not ok for public workers then it is not ok for private workers. While our (the ones on ATS) Tea Party members here may be aware these obvious attempts to subvert the American people the average "asleep" Tea Party member who blindly worship the hottie Palin and just agree with everything Fox news and Glenn Beck says.



posted on Jun, 17 2011 @ 09:55 AM
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Originally posted by CodexSinaiticus

Originally posted by TDawgRex
This from a debate I had last night, slightly modified.

Private unions I am ok with as the company and the union head negotiate the terms and if the company fails because the unions nickel and dimed them to death? Well, that’s the companies fault and now everyone is out of work.

Public unions I am not ok with. Even FDR opposed them.

But do you realize, that Corporations and Companies exist for one thing, and one thing only. To make a profit. I that upsets you for some odd reason, don’t buy their product or service.

If I own a company where my employees are making a quality product and it’s selling well, I will reward them. If I am losing money and they want more, I’ll move the company to where it is profitable again. Or just close up shop while I’m ahead. It’s as simple as that.

And public unions create no profit whatsoever, the public employees provide a service.

Unions have to give a little, otherwise, we’ll all go down the drain together. That is a union I’d rather not see.


I guess there's little profit in providing a sound education to your children, or saving a family member from a fire.

Speaking only for myself these two (2) things are most important to me and priceless. And, I am going to guess that my property taxes are much higher than your own.
edit on 16-6-2011 by CodexSinaiticus because: Spelling


If there are to be public unions, it should only be Police, firefighters and EMTs. All of these entities should be protected as they put their lives on the line for the public good. If you do your research, you'll find that they cannot strike either.

Teachers?, meh. I have yet to see a unionized teacher that challenges their pupils. They teach by rout, no critical thinking allowed.

Teachers need to compete just like the rest of us.

Ok, cool, so you pay high taxes, as do I and I have no children in the system. Is that fair. believe it or not, yep. I have no problem paying taxes to my city and county. But why am I paying for schools that I have no children in. For the future, that's why.



posted on Jun, 17 2011 @ 10:03 AM
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This is good news and States should seek more relief for the tax payers.

Living off taxpayer money is bad enough, these servants of the public should NEVER have the authority to DEMAND payment of any sort. They should just feel lucky to be employed at all. Ingrates...



posted on Jun, 17 2011 @ 10:48 AM
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Originally posted by mike_trivisonno
This is good news and States should seek more relief for the tax payers.

Living off taxpayer money is bad enough, these servants of the public should NEVER have the authority to DEMAND payment of any sort. They should just feel lucky to be employed at all. Ingrates...



You sir are the ingrate. Jealous of the fact that they get paid better than yourself I am sure. The truth is exactly as I said and no one wants to tackle the real issues and implications that come along wit them. It is easier to be mad at someone you can effect then be angry at those perceived to beyond your touch. You sound like every other Tea Party member I have met in real life. Cheerleaders for the corporate cause without understanding the implications of the things you rally for.

Ill informed Tea Party cheerleaders equate to CORPORATE COMMUNISTS

This is not name calling or vitriol. The Tea Party severs a Corporate Agenda. Defund the EPA the FDA the IRS and deregulate the market. What they are doing is taking everything to an extreme. Do these agencies need to be reformed in some cases? Yes! Just as the Tax Code needs to be rewritten and more strictly enforced. That does not mean that they serve no purpose.

So who has to gain from these rally calls? None other than the Oligarchies that are already in control. They want to choke out the competition. They want to kill free markets and force you to buy only their products. They can best accomplish this without government enforcement of regulations. Today it is public sector unions, where does it go tomorrow?



posted on Jun, 17 2011 @ 11:04 AM
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reply to post by LexiconRiot
 


Calm down man. You're letting your emotions get the better of you. The union/non union argument is one that is tied to many others. It is easy to get carried away. Both sides have valid points.

Our world is changing and a bit to quickly for my taste. If the Unions want to stay relevent, then they need to bend some. I live in a heavy union town (Cleveland) and the unemployment is high here. People are starting to blame the unions now. Looking around my area, I don't blame them. The union corruption and nepotism is very high here.

If unions can't change, then they will become irrelevent soon. Just like the pony express...a footnote in history.



posted on Jun, 17 2011 @ 11:22 AM
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reply to post by TDawgRex
 


I agree completely that everyone must be willing to be flexible. As the unions in WI were by acquiescing to the demands of Gov. Walker on every point but Collective Bargaining.

The reality is though that Union busting isn't about people being fair and flexible. It is about the deconstruction of a group collective. United we stand divided we fall. This doesn't apply to just politics. This goes for everything being an individual is great and we should have rights to protect that. We should also strive to be united in the cause of the common man no matter how we differ from one person to the next. This means being united in labor negotiations. Does this mean we should take advantage of the situation? No! Being united doesn't mean getting someone hired to sweep 1 room for hours a day to get paid. Unions need to not be corrupt and greedy as this doesn't serve the best interest of the people. They do need to be vigilant and ready to fight for the people though. No one likes work stoppage. It is an ugly necessity at times though. Freedom isn't pretty freedom isn't always fun and games. Freedom often means having to defend yourself and your freedom.

I really am not getting emotional though, please (though I don't think it was your intention) don't marginalize my opinion. I am an angry citizen. I served this country as an enlisted Army service-member. Now it is time I serve this country as a pissed off countryman. I call upon all of you to do the same. We can not allow either the extreme of the Tea Party or Government socialism. Both are real threats and a balance must be maintained to each.



posted on Jun, 17 2011 @ 11:26 AM
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Originally posted by ItsEvolutionBaby
Looks like the paid-to-posts
are up and running

Where do I sign up for that?

OP, great news. This ruling means that not all people have gone insane. Rulings like this means we might just survive this.
S+F



posted on Jun, 17 2011 @ 11:35 AM
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Originally posted by TDawgRex

Originally posted by CodexSinaiticus

Originally posted by TDawgRex
This from a debate I had last night, slightly modified.

Private unions I am ok with as the company and the union head negotiate the terms and if the company fails because the unions nickel and dimed them to death? Well, that’s the companies fault and now everyone is out of work.

Public unions I am not ok with. Even FDR opposed them.

But do you realize, that Corporations and Companies exist for one thing, and one thing only. To make a profit. I that upsets you for some odd reason, don’t buy their product or service.

If I own a company where my employees are making a quality product and it’s selling well, I will reward them. If I am losing money and they want more, I’ll move the company to where it is profitable again. Or just close up shop while I’m ahead. It’s as simple as that.

And public unions create no profit whatsoever, the public employees provide a service.

Unions have to give a little, otherwise, we’ll all go down the drain together. That is a union I’d rather not see.


I guess there's little profit in providing a sound education to your children, or saving a family member from a fire.

Speaking only for myself these two (2) things are most important to me and priceless. And, I am going to guess that my property taxes are much higher than your own.
edit on 16-6-2011 by CodexSinaiticus because: Spelling


If there are to be public unions, it should only be Police, firefighters and EMTs. All of these entities should be protected as they put their lives on the line for the public good. If you do your research, you'll find that they cannot strike either.

Teachers?, meh. I have yet to see a unionized teacher that challenges their pupils. They teach by rout, no critical thinking allowed.

Teachers need to compete just like the rest of us.

Ok, cool, so you pay high taxes, as do I and I have no children in the system. Is that fair. believe it or not, yep. I have no problem paying taxes to my city and county. But why am I paying for schools that I have no children in. For the future, that's why.


Well, yes they cannot strike here in New York its called the Taylor law. en.wikipedia.org...

I may even agree with you regarding whether or not certain job titles should be unionized. However, existing employees that were hired under civil service law and/or unionized must be "grandfathered".

If you want to change the rules for future hires, although I personally oppose this, at least it's fair in that those hired know the rules (benefits) from the start of their career and not 15 years into it.

Public school teachers:

Although I left the public school system many years ago, most teachers were challenging and at the time (1980's) we were allowed to be independent and critical thinkers and in my opinion they all earned their money.

The real issue:

I think some folks envy those with job security and pensions, and like to throw darts at others who made modest decisions many years ago and are finally reaping their just dividends while some of us suffer the economy and job market.

I choose the high road and say good for them.

When traders were doing 6 figures a year (mid 1990's) and the police and firefighters you mention were making about 29,500 I didn't hear them crying about it.

Please, please, stop attacking the poor and middle class and open your eyes to who is really responsible for shortfalls. Remember, wealth is never destroyed, its only redistributed, why don't you put your energies into looking at why, and where the shortage came from and where it went, instead of trying to justify its financing on the backs of those who render services to you and your family.

Lastly, how to kill the middle class 101 by TDawgRex :

Choose an easy mark (a state) whose majority of occupants are like minded with Mr.TDawgRex crush collective bargaining, set a precedent, rinse and repeat.



posted on Jun, 17 2011 @ 11:42 AM
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Anyone that believes this strategy will only be limited to public sector unions is a moron.

The big picture is that the GOP/TPM and their corporate controllers want to dismantle the middle class and turn everyone into chattel exclusively controlled, manipulated, and dependent on the Corporate Oligarchy.

The neocons and the PNAC are still in control more than we will ever know and it's not surprising that the rightwing, conservative, evangelicals, etc. sucks up to them.

www.crisispapers.org...




edit on 17-6-2011 by whaaa because: PT come back!!



posted on Jun, 17 2011 @ 11:43 AM
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reply to post by CodexSinaiticus
 


While I agree with your post don't throw TDawgRex under the bus. He is one of the most civil and even keel people on this board. While we don't see eye to eye with him on this debate he has willing made statements saying how he can see the point of the opposition. Beezzer is a much more deserving person for this.



posted on Jun, 17 2011 @ 11:44 AM
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Originally posted by whaaa
Anyone that believes this strategy will only be limited to public sector unions is a moron.

The big picture is that the GOP/TPM and their corporate controllers want to dismantle the middle class and turn everyone into chattel exclusively controlled, manipulated, and dependent on the Corporate Oligarchy.

The neocons and the PNAC are still in control more than we will ever know and it's not surprising that the rightwing sucks up to them.

www.crisispapers.org...





Thank you!

I could not agree more!



posted on Jun, 17 2011 @ 12:07 PM
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Originally posted by joyride0187

Originally posted by ItsEvolutionBaby
Looks like the paid-to-posts
are up and running


LOL I can assure you no one is paying me. I just cannot afford another increase in property taxes and that is exactly what will happen if collective barganing by public sector unions is allowed to continue.


It looks like the tin foil hats are logging on.

-------------
Great job Wisconsin!
All those hissy fits at the state capitol were for nothing.

Unions got hit in New Jersey also!
They are calling Gov. Christie a Nazi !


edit on 17-6-2011 by Eurisko2012 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 17 2011 @ 12:14 PM
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Originally posted by CodexSinaiticus

Originally posted by whaaa
Anyone that believes this strategy will only be limited to public sector unions is a moron.

The big picture is that the GOP/TPM and their corporate controllers want to dismantle the middle class and turn everyone into chattel exclusively controlled, manipulated, and dependent on the Corporate Oligarchy.

The neocons and the PNAC are still in control more than we will ever know and it's not surprising that the rightwing sucks up to them.

www.crisispapers.org...





Thank you!

I could not agree more!



I think the - neolibs - need to put on their tin foil hats and move to Canada.
That way you can flee persecution in good old USA.

There is free health care up there.


--------------
Long live the Wisconsin Supreme Court !
- neolib judge overruled --



posted on Jun, 17 2011 @ 12:17 PM
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Originally posted by beezzer

Originally posted by ItsEvolutionBaby
Looks like the paid-to-posts
are up and running

Where do I sign up for that?

OP, great news. This ruling means that not all people have gone insane. Rulings like this means we might just survive this.
S+F



We will survive and thrive.


--------------

We have momentum! New Jersey is next.



posted on Jun, 17 2011 @ 12:26 PM
link   

Originally posted by Eurisko2012

Originally posted by CodexSinaiticus

Originally posted by whaaa
Anyone that believes this strategy will only be limited to public sector unions is a moron.

The big picture is that the GOP/TPM and their corporate controllers want to dismantle the middle class and turn everyone into chattel exclusively controlled, manipulated, and dependent on the Corporate Oligarchy.

The neocons and the PNAC are still in control more than we will ever know and it's not surprising that the rightwing sucks up to them.

www.crisispapers.org...





Thank you!

I could not agree more!



I think the - neolibs - need to put on their tin foil hats and move to Canada.
That way you can flee persecution in good old USA.

There is free health care up there.


--------------
Long live the Wisconsin Supreme Court !
- neolib judge overruled --


Hmm, is that an insult? A ats member rediculing another?

If I said to take your mouth off the thickness of the wealthy would that be equivalent?

I'm just curious..




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