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Federal Judge Upholds Same-Sex Marriage Ruling in California

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posted on Jun, 16 2011 @ 09:16 AM
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Originally posted by Garfee
Of course you had a choice. If you didn't want your government to impose their rules over certai aspects of your relationship you didn't have to marry. If you want, you can divorce and be happy in an unrecognised partnership where you and your partner have no legal rights to eachothers estates and arent considered next-of-kin.


Nonsense!

I chose to take part in a religious ceremony, I never agreed to the government imposing their conditions upon my relationship. And many of these conditions continue applying to our relationship after a divorce (alimony etc. etc. etc.).

Besides the government can impose these conditions upon you even if you never got married, but your relationship "fits the bill" so to speak. They can also change the legalities that apply to my relationship long after my marraige (so how is it I agreed to them?).
edit on 16-6-2011 by SevenBeans because: (no reason given)




posted on Jun, 16 2011 @ 09:27 AM
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Originally posted by SevenBeans

Originally posted by Garfee
Of course you had a choice. If you didn't want your government to impose their rules over certai aspects of your relationship you didn't have to marry. If you want, you can divorce and be happy in an unrecognised partnership where you and your partner have no legal rights to eachothers estates and arent considered next-of-kin.


Nonsense!

I chose to take part in a religious ceremony, I never agreed to the government imposing their conditions upon my relationship. And many of these conditions continue applying to our relationship after a divorce (alimony etc. etc. etc.).

Besides the government can impose these conditions upon you even if you never got married, but your relationship "fits the bill" so to speak.
edit on 16-6-2011 by SevenBeans because: (no reason given)

edit on 16-6-2011 by SevenBeans because: (no reason given)


Well, we are getting way off topic probably, but you did agree by signing your marriage certificate.

It seems as though you want me to tell you why I want to get married or engage in recognised civil partnership. I don't right now. I am not in a relationship. If I were though, if anything happened to my partner, I would have no right to even visit them in hospital if the staff say family only. Let alone make a decision about their welfare or they for me. But I should have that right.

The issue for me is to be able to share legal responsibility for one another as much as comfirm one's love for their partner.



posted on Jun, 16 2011 @ 09:30 AM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
They are a protected class under Federal Hate Crime Law

Gays Now A Protected Class Under New Law

That only deals with thoughts in someone's head during crimes, not rights or privileges that are given. The Civil Rights Act of 1964 is still the defacto reference for what groups can not be discriminated against. When you fill out a job application there isn't a box that says "straight, gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgender? " because that's not an official group you have to worry about during employment.



posted on Jun, 16 2011 @ 09:35 AM
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Originally posted by Garfee
Well, we are getting way off topic probably, but you did agree by signing your marriage certificate.


Wrong again. I cannot agree to legalities that don't even exist yet, and the government can impose them upon couples who never even got married.


Originally posted by Garfee
If I were though, if anything happened to my partner, I would have no right to even visit them in hospital if the staff say family only. Let alone make a decision about their welfare or they for me. But I should have that right.


I don't know where you live, but most likely wrong again. Your partner can most likely grant you this right via power of attorney.



posted on Jun, 16 2011 @ 09:46 AM
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Originally posted by SevenBeans

Originally posted by Garfee
Well, we are getting way off topic probably, but you did agree by signing your marriage certificate.


Wrong again. I cannot agree to legalities that don't even exist yet, and the government can impose them upon couples who never even got married.


Originally posted by Garfee
If I were though, if anything happened to my partner, I would have no right to even visit them in hospital if the staff say family only. Let alone make a decision about their welfare or they for me. But I should have that right.


I don't know where you live, but most likely wrong again. Your partner can most likely grant you this right via power of attorney.


Well, let's just say that I am happy to agree to them. It's the lessor of two evils.

I had better drag myself to bed, it's past midnight here. Thanks for the debate, good things come from civilized conversation.

By the way, where I live is listed in the info panel on the left.
edit on 16-6-2011 by Garfee because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 16 2011 @ 09:55 AM
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Originally posted by Garfee
if anything happened to my partner, I would have no right to even visit them in hospital if the staff say family only. Let alone make a decision about their welfare or they for me. But I should have that right.

A simple notarized power of attorney would clear all that up if this were the only issues. Honestly getting a power of attorney is much more simple than applying for a marriage license, waiting 24 hrs. to get the order fulfilled, booking a justice of the peace or minister, booking a church, buying a dress, flowers, catering food, sending out invitations, getting fitted for a tuxedo, etc., etc. This supposed default right that married couples have comes at quite a heavy cost and price.

I suspect that homosexuals really want the recognition. If this was really just about shared legal rights then a simple will and power of attorney would fix this issue. You can even get these drawn up online at sites like legalzoom.com at a much cheaper price. You can get a detailed will and power of attorney for under $100.

If the gripe is about tax breaks most married people will tell you that there are none. The majority of dual income couples fall into what is knows as the "Marriage Penalty" tax bracket. Yes they end up paying more in taxes if they file jointly.

So I do have to ask, why do homosexuals want to get married? It's for the recognition, not the supposed tax breaks, or rights to visit partners in the hospital. That really is a false pretense.



posted on Jun, 16 2011 @ 09:59 AM
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reply to post by dbates
 


All of it. It's for all of it.



posted on Jun, 16 2011 @ 10:11 AM
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Originally posted by SevenBeans
No it isn't, I never agreed to the legalities of marraige


If you are legally married, you did. You signed the paper whether or not you knew what you were signing.



Sure, you can call it a contract and many people do, but in fact it's the government imposing conditions upon your relationship (whether you agree to those conditions or not).


The government didn't impose anything. We AGREE to the contract when we sign the marriage license.


Originally posted by SevenBeans
I am and I had no choice in the matter.


That's CRAZY! You absolutely had a choice whether or not to get legally married!



I didn't agree to all the legalities of marraige,


When you signed the LEGAL marriage contract, you most certainly did agree. No one can force you to get married. You sound like a victim of marriage... I don't think you understand it at all.



I took part in a religious ceremony and then the government IMPOSED these legalities upon my relationship (and they can change them tomorrow).


You took part in a legal ceremony AND a religious ceremony. The legal ceremony isn't necessary. It's entirely optional. Your CHURCH may have said, "If you want us to marry you, you have to also be legally married", but it was still your choice.

I don't think you understand how marriage works.


Originally posted by SevenBeans
(so how is it I agreed to them?).


By signing the CONTRACT! Jeez!

reply to post by dbates
 


Yes, but they are a protected class. It's only a matter of time until this goes through all states. New York is the most recent



posted on Jun, 16 2011 @ 10:18 AM
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I find it astonishing and hypocritical for those that despise the fed. government, the beauracracy and legal authority to advise others to get a "Power of Attorney"



posted on Jun, 16 2011 @ 10:18 AM
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reply to post by dbates
 


A simple POA does not grand the federal tax breaks that marriage does.



The General Accounting Office of the Federal Government in 1997, in a 75 page brief prepared for the Chairman of the House Judiciary Committee enumerated some 1,049 laws giving rights to married heterosexual couples (www.marriageequality.com...). These rights are denied to gay couples.


Source



On the order of 1,400 legal rights are conferred upon married couples in the U.S. Typically these are composed of about 400 state benefits and over 1,000 federal benefits.


Source



posted on Jun, 16 2011 @ 10:21 AM
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Originally posted by dbates
So I do have to ask, why do homosexuals want to get married?


I have to ask, why don't you want them to?

If you are married, why did you want to get married?

I'm married and I have my reasons and I don't owe an explanation to ANYONE.



posted on Jun, 16 2011 @ 10:32 AM
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reply to post by leo123
 


How exactly is your relationship with your spouse cheapened? Doesn't divorce actually cheapen the institution of marriage more (than 2 people in love pledging to spend their lives together)? Let's make divorce illegal to strengthen the institute of marriage!



posted on Jun, 16 2011 @ 10:36 AM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
If you are legally married, you did. You signed the paper whether or not you knew what you were signing.


Nope, many of the legalities attached to marraige didn't even exist when I got married.


Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
The government didn't impose anything. We AGREE to the contract when we sign the marriage license.


Wrong.


Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
When you signed the LEGAL marriage contract, you most certainly did agree. No one can force you to get married. You sound like a victim of marriage... I don't think you understand it at all.


Ok let me get this straight, I agreed to conditions that didn't even exist for another 10 years?

I must be psychic!



posted on Jun, 16 2011 @ 10:39 AM
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reply to post by Benevolent Heretic
 

What tax breaks?(Your source marriageequality.com is dead in the water.) It's not as if you get married to gain money. As I noted above many people actually pay more in taxes after they get married thus the common term Marriage Penalty Tax.

Fill out our taxes separately and jointly see how that changes things. I've been filing separately lately because I pay less taxes.


edit on 16-6-2011 by dbates because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 16 2011 @ 11:55 AM
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Originally posted by korathin
It isn't really an issue because homosexuals have way higher divorce rates based upon studies done in states that legalized gay marriage(heck the first married gay couple in America already got divorced). The real issue is homosexuals will use this to shut down religion or censor it. I am against that. Because I don't like the idea of people telling other people what to do(so I view homosexuals as forfeiting their claim to innocence). Combine that with homosexuals supporting the feminist hate movement(if you follow egalitarian principles the only conclusion one can come about the feminist movement based upon the actions of it's leaders and the majority of feminist's is that it is a hate movement feministhate.tripod.com...).


I just had to re-post this gem to make sure other posters don't miss it


And what does gays getting divorced have to do with Equal Right to Legal Marriage?

Let's simplify. Couples have Legal Right to Marriage. That's it. No other qualifier except consent (and laws against incest).
edit on 16-6-2011 by Annee because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 16 2011 @ 12:15 PM
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Originally posted by SevenBeans
Let me ask you... when did I agree to the legalities imposed by the government upon my marraige?


The base subject of this thread is the Right to Legal Government Marriage for all regardless of gender.

Your personal belief of the legalities of government imposing on your marriage is not the subject of this thread. Perhaps you should start a thread on that subject.



posted on Jun, 16 2011 @ 12:15 PM
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Originally posted by Annee
Let's simplify. Couples have Legal Right to Marriage. That's it. No other qualifier except consent (and laws against incest).


Couple things...

First, this way of talking about the issue is very misleading. The legal recognition of marraige has nothing to do with "allowing" or "disallowing" anything... it simply means that the government is going to apply legalities to certain types of relationships and not to others. There is no "ban" on publically declaring your romantic commitment to a same gender partner etc. etc. No one will come fine you or arrest you for doing so... you can arrange your relationship however you like (unless the government "recognizes" it, in which case they can apply conditions upon your relationship whether you agree to those conditions or not).

Second, it is the traditional institution of marraige that implies a romantic component. If you reduce things to a purely civil affair between "any 2 consenting adults" than there is absolutely no justification for not allowing siblings to "marry," roomates to "marry" etc. etc. etc.



posted on Jun, 16 2011 @ 12:19 PM
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Originally posted by Annee
Your personal belief of the legalities of government imposing on your marriage is not the subject of this thread. Perhaps you should start a thread on that subject.


It isn't a personal belief it's a fact.

You have to understand what it means for the government to recognize your marraige before you can have an intelligent conversation about it. It doesn't mean they approve of it blah blah blah... all it means is that they will impose legalities upon your relationship (as they see fit, regardless of whether or not you agree to them).



posted on Jun, 16 2011 @ 12:21 PM
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Originally posted by adifferentbreed
......in a society, not everyone can, nor should be equal, it's a fact of life.....to say otherwise is nothing less than intellectual dishonesty.


Of course people are not equal.

But - - they are afforded equal rights.



posted on Jun, 16 2011 @ 12:24 PM
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Originally posted by SevenBeans

Originally posted by Annee
Your personal belief of the legalities of government imposing on your marriage is not the subject of this thread. Perhaps you should start a thread on that subject.


It isn't a personal belief it's a fact.

You have to understand what it means for the government to recognize your marraige before you can have an intelligent conversation about it. It doesn't mean they approve of it blah blah blah... all it means is that they will impose legalities upon your relationship (as they see fit, regardless of whether or not you agree to them).


That is not the base subject of this thread. Therefore I am not discussing it. Feel free to start a thread on it.

Pretty difficult to object to something you don't have rights to. Let's make sure the RIGHTS are there first.



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