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Russian Foreign Ministry calls U.S. warship in Black Sea "Security Threat"

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posted on Jun, 14 2011 @ 09:16 PM
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Originally posted by backinblack
The topic?

Yes, the topic....


Originally posted by backinblack
We all know the US deliberately holds these provocative exercises any chance they get..

How is it provocative? Why is it the US you just single out, especially since there are over 10 nations involved in the joint exercise? This has been occruing every year since 1997, so its not like the Russians didnt know about the exercise. As a matter of fact they did know about it since they were briefed on it by their observer to NATO.

Hardly provocative at all.... Nice dramatic effect though using the word. Has the fearmonger feel but not so over the top as to be annoying. Come to think of it, I have not once ever seen you say anything positive about anything aside from Hamas or the Palestinian cause. Is there some bias you have we should know about to place your arguments into proper context?


Originally posted by backinblack
We've seen it around Taiwan and Korea recently..

Both of which are allies. Korea still remains at war and the UN command is still present. Or are you suggesting that these countries dont have a right to defend themselves or have any rights to train with allies?


Originally posted by backinblack
It's just what the US do....

Yeah, God forbid we help other countries and God forbid allied nations who put together training exercises and invite the Us to participate.

Intrestingly enough,m yet hardly not surprising, your entire argument is based solely on the US, while ignoring all other countries involved. Ill let the people in the thread draw their own conclusions to your obvious bias.


Originally posted by backinblack
If you want to be seen as the world police and general bully then you have to be seen as such..

We DONT want to be the World Police. The reason we are is because other countries dont want to step up and do anything about it. Take Libya as an example. Over a month of nothing but empty threats by European allies and the UN. Only after the civilian body count started to go through the roof, and after 30 days of doing nothing did England and France raise a finger to help.

If we get involved, we get slammed (libya)
If we stay out of it, we get slammed(Syria)

I for one think its high time other countries pick up some of the slack and take a roll of the dice.

Damned if you do, damned if you dont.
edit on 14-6-2011 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)

edit on 14-6-2011 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)




posted on Jun, 14 2011 @ 09:27 PM
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reply to post by Xcathdra
 



Yeah, God forbid we help other countries and God forbid allied nations who put together training exercises and invite the Us to participate.


Sure, Afghanistan and Iraq are much better off now with US assistance as I'm sure Libya,Syria,Yemen and Pakistan will soon feel the same..

Yes, Taiwan and SK are allies but China and NK are not..

BTW, where's my past history quotes?

Ohh and sorry for the lax post, I'm actually bored with your same old arguments..



posted on Jun, 14 2011 @ 09:41 PM
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Originally posted by kro32

Who's gonna fight who and over what?


Theres no saying when it comes to a world war. Nobody expected WW1. the assassination of an Austrian Archduke was sufficient to set of secret alliances and open the gates of hell. Whose to say that it couldn't happen again?

However, tons of people expected WWII. But we dont exactly have any apparent Hitlers on our hands... unless he's making his manipulative play for power as we speak.

But, its all hypothetical. The world might just hold together. Its hard to imagine the EU coming apart



posted on Jun, 14 2011 @ 09:48 PM
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Originally posted by backinblack
Sure, Afghanistan and Iraq are much better off now with US assistance as I'm sure Libya,Syria,Yemen and Pakistan will soon feel the same..


Well, currently and in the past the citizens were routinely killed by their government and religous leaders, and that pretty much occurs now, so I dont see how the US is repsonible for the barabarians and uneducated halfwits in those countries.

Which again, has nothing to do with Russia or Nato exercises in the Black sea.


Originally posted by backinblack
Yes, Taiwan and SK are allies but China and NK are not..

yay skills.



Originally posted by backinblack
BTW, where's my past history quotes?

Your the one who lied about your past so its up to you to correct your mistake. Were you lieing then, or were you lieing now. Besides, your the one who said it, so if it bugs you that much, quit being lazy and go find the quote yourself (to borrow your old fall back that you use when you dont have an answer).



Originally posted by backinblack
Ohh and sorry for the lax post, I'm actually bored with your same old arguments..

...and nothing but the same old uneducated obfuscation you like ot use when you dont have anything to contribute to the debate other than ignorance and personal attacks.

Way to keep it on track though.

Now, about Russia and Nato and the Black Sea. How is the US being pervocative when the same training exercise has been held the last 13 years? How is the US being provocative when Russia is participating in one of the scjeduled segments in the region?

Or were you just grasping at straws in hopes of sounding like you know what your talking about?
edit on 14-6-2011 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 14 2011 @ 10:15 PM
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Originally posted by Xcathdra
The paranoia being expressed by the Russians is being done for another reason and has nothing to do with the joint exercises.


I would not say it's paranoia. Nobody is realistically afraid of that ship in the Black Sea. Russia is expressing more of an annoyance, and questioning of US foreign policy motives. Nothing out of ordinary or unexpected here.



Originally posted by Xcathdra
Russia has alreaady pushed ahead with its next generation of mirv warheads, which our defense shield cant stop. The view that this is directed at Russia is based on a lack of understanding of the mad concept. Russia has enough nuclear weapons to render the shield useless.


Assuming we are talking about the currently fielded ABM system. But what is currently in R&D phase? US didn't back out of the ABM treaty to just spread the Aegis system around is ships and foreign bases. Russia and China both see that as just a stepping stone for the US.



Originally posted by Xcathdra
We are more concerned with a rogue nuclear attack than we are going to war and it turning nuclear with Russia.


And who can realistically stage a rogue nuclear attack using an ICBM? Even if a "rogue" state at some point in the future comes in possession of an ICBM capable of reaching US or Europe, they too understand that using it will mean guaranteed destruction/invasion for them. ICBM's are easy to track to where they originated. Terrorists can't use ICBM's without full support of a nation's military.

If a rogue nuclear attack ever occurs, it will not be delivered by an ICBM or any sort of missile.



Originally posted by Xcathdra
This is Russia saberratteling and nothing more.


And US, NATO, China, etc. sabre rattle just as much. If that is all it is then why are you so surprised and taken aback by it?



Originally posted by backinblack
Yup.. at the rate we are going we will be just like Afghanistan in no time.
/end sarcasm.


Part of America's success is due to its foreign policy no doubt. But the increasing Military Industrial Complex and deeping involvement in global conflicts that should have never been US's business, could also be its undoing at some point. This is as good time as any to reassess America's strategy and foreign policy (as well as many other policies), since the foundation has already been shaken. US no longer has the resources to continue its lavish foreign policy adventures.

US can try and get out of hot water now, or stay in until it starts to boil at which point it will be too late.



Originally posted by backinblack
The difference between Americans and yourself, is we will actually stick around in our country and try to fix and make changes, instead of running away from it and blaming everyone else.


That statement is naive on very many levels. Any claim that this or that side, nationality, ethnicity, or race somehow has moral superiority over others is not going to make you look knowledgeable or win you any friends.



posted on Jun, 14 2011 @ 10:16 PM
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Originally posted by Xcathdra
Or were you just grasping at straws in hopes of sounding like you know what your talking about?


Why do you find it necessary to demean other posters that you disagree with?

I don't understand why you're allowed to take me down a notch because you disagree with my opinion. I read over what I write and do cut out unnecessarily condenscending material, so at least I make an effort.

You do this to other posters too. Out of all of my ATS experiences, you have probably been the only one lacking any pleasure in engagement.

I don't understand why you can act like staff, telling other posters what they can and cannot discuss, while no actual staff steps in and lay down the rules.

Are we expected to be overly aggressive on ATS or something?



posted on Jun, 14 2011 @ 10:32 PM
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reply to post by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi
 


Actually I went back through and removed several comments from my last post. As far as my back and forth with backinblack, that’s just the way we deal with each other. We are on complete opposites ends of the spectrum, and it’s obvious nothing is going to change that.

As far as comments directed at you, take a step back and think about some of what you typed for a minute. Then look at my response to you.

You have not exactly been cordial to me in this thread, or other threads for that matter. When you come at me, expect me to return it in kind.

I don’t tell anyone what they can and cannot do. What I have said is for people to research the topics before opening their mouths, and personally speaking I don’t see anything wrong with that. This site has a motto - Deny Ignorance. The problem is people don’t do that, they don’t seek out the truth. What they look for is any information, no matter how uncredible the source, to use to push an agenda and nothing more.

As an example, your comment about US oil supply and natural resources. You speak as if we have none, and when you are told we do, you attack the post and go off on a rant about it. You completely ignore all of the information that has come out about our oil discoveries, as well as advances in oil extraction technology that has since opened up the oil finds in the Appalachian mountains and parts of the rocky mountains.

Are we not allowed to defend our country when people come into a thread and run it into the ground while using information that is out of date?

I have no issues being cordial and respectful to others. Respect is a 2 way street though and is earned.

If you want to start over between both of us and try to start out again, on a new foot, I’m all for that. All I ask, as I asked babckinblack in a message I sent him a few days ago, is if either of us say something the other takes exception to, that we send each other a private message to give each other a chance to clarify / rephrase or remove the comment. That way we don’t derail the thread or interrupt debate with back and forth.

Also, and this is my perception so take form what you want, is people seem to have a difficult time separating the US from military affairs and other world affairs / domestic affairs. People make comments about the US that are based on a person’s opinion in one area that spills into another.

People hate the US because of the Iraq and Afghan war. That’s fine; people can think what they want. However it does no good to bring that animosity into a thread that deals with something entirely different than military affairs. The sheer number of comments relating to the US that are just blatantly false is staggering, and it’s done on such a continuous basis it permeates any topic dealing with the US.

If people went off and attacked Canada in just about every thread, making comments based on ignorance and incorrect information, would you not make an attempt to correct that view? I think you would, and I say this because I have seen you do it before.

Why should it be any different for those of us who live in the US? Are we not allowed to confront and challenge information that is wrong?

Anyways.. Like I said, if you want to try and start over I’m willing to give it a shot.
edit on 14-6-2011 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)


edit on 14-6-2011 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 14 2011 @ 10:57 PM
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Originally posted by mr-lizard

Originally posted by deltaboy
Are the Russians so weak that they are afraid of one American surface warship? Wow!!!


Because obviously you Americans wouldn't give a damn if a Russian war ship came near your coast eh?

Or does your logic think that Russians are incapable of concern or indeed a defined interest in your suspicious activities?


send all navy seals, tanya, chrono commando and etc.



posted on Jun, 14 2011 @ 10:58 PM
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Send tanks like prism tank, mirrage , howitze, giant ant IFVs . haha



posted on Jun, 14 2011 @ 11:12 PM
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reply to post by backinblack
 


He always does that. You prove Xcathdra wrong and he repeats the same thing you just refuted him on. Believe me, your not the only one it has happened to.



posted on Jun, 14 2011 @ 11:14 PM
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Originally posted by Xcathdra
This site has a motto - Deny Ignorance. The problem is people don’t do that, they don’t seek out the truth. What they look for is any information, no matter how uncredible the source, to use to push an agenda and nothing more.


There is no such thing as truth because it is perceptual. You don't know what the truth is, and I don't know what the truth is. We can only speculate.


As an example, your comment about US oil supply and natural resources. You speak as if we have none, and when you are told we do, you attack the post and go off on a rant about it. You completely ignore all of the information that has come out about our oil discoveries, as well as advances in oil extraction technology that has since opened up the oil finds in the Appalachian mountains and parts of the rocky mountains.

Are we not allowed to defend our country when people come into a thread and run it into the ground while using information that is out of date?


Out of date information? I didn't give you any information other than my opinion and facts about post-peak oil output from individual derricks.

I got my information from geographical charts published and presented by British Patroleum concerning international oil trade. The fact is that the US has to import around 2/3 of the oil that it uses. It wouldn't be doing this if it could supply it for itself.

We cover global warming in every single class I take, regardless of the subject, because it is the biggest threat to our planet and species right now. We go over all of the key points. Oil consumption is manditory learning in political classes since a lot of Canadian political issues are directly linked to energy needs of the US, so we have to study energy needs of the US which leads straight into what is going on in the middle east.


Also, and this is my perception so take form what you want, is people seem to have a difficult time separating the US from military affairs and other world affairs / domestic affairs. People make comments about the US that are based on a person’s opinion in one area that spills into another.


The problem is that the US is involved in other country's domestic affairs when it has no business in doing so. This is usually done through clandestine measures (ie CIA operatives supporting domestic terrorism/coups/assassinations/psychological operations). Ignoring this is embracing ignorance and accepting the mainstream views, which are quite frankly bullsh*t and are directed towards the lowest common denominator members of society that are not capable of studying and thinking these things out for themselves.


People hate the US because of the Iraq and Afghan war. That’s fine; people can think what they want. However it does no good to bring that animosity into a thread that deals with something entirely different than military affairs. The sheer number of comments relating to the US that are just blatantly false is staggering, and it’s done on such a continuous basis it permeates any topic dealing with the US.


No, people hate the US because it is the world's bully state that dictates what people around the world should think, and will do it through coercion and force.

How is this not a military-related thread? We are discussing a "security threat" posed by a US warship in Russia's neighborhood.

And how do you know what is false or not? You are not an arbiter of information. Whether something is true or false means nothing anymore; it is all about how the information fares in a practical sense.


If people went off and attacked Canada in just about every thread, making comments based on ignorance and incorrect information, would you not make an attempt to correct that view? I think you would, and I say this because I have seen you do it before.


Attack and discuss are two different things. I have learned things about my country from outsiders before.

The fact is that just because you come from the US, doesn't mean you know everything about the US. In fact, there is a fence here: you are either American, or you're not (which means you are able to perceive the US from an outside perspective). Both have their advantages and disadvantages, and it means that nobody could ever have the full picture of the US because they have to side with relevant information. This whole concept is true for ANY country and observers (including myself and Canada).

When there are so many non-Americans telling you that there is something seriously wrong with American foreign policy, how can you just sit there and call us liars? Obviously we aren't sitting in the same position as you so we don't see the same show that you do.


Anyways.. Like I said, if you want to try and start over I’m willing to give it a shot.


I don't pretend in regards to anything.

I will make my effort to discuss in a reasonable fashion, and I expect you to treat me in similar regards. If it doesn't work, then we will only find ourselves in the same position.
edit on 14-6-2011 by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 14 2011 @ 11:15 PM
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reply to post by Xcathdra
 





We are on complete opposites ends of the spectrum, and it’s obvious nothing is going to change that.


Yes!!! Dug some truth out of Xcathdra! Finally



posted on Jun, 14 2011 @ 11:18 PM
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reply to post by Skerrako
 


And what exactly am I wrong on in this topic? Please, point out where im wrong and please provide your sources showing me im wrong.

Or are you just going to make personal attacks while contibuting nothing to the thread? You know what im talking about, its the same thing backinblack does.

The training exercise is the same one thats been ongoing for the last 13 years. - Russia knows tis.
Russia is taking part in a joint exercise in the same region in conjunction with Nato countries.

All Us warships have a chip on board that makes missile batteries part of a mobile ant missile shield, and this is not a secret - Russia knows this.
They point out in vessel in the Black Sea, while ignoring the second vessel present - why?

In addition to the Us involvement, there are about 10+ other countries involved, so please explain to the rest of us why you and back just single out the US, I mean aisde from the bovious hate and ignorance you both have when it comes to topics like this.

To date neither of you have added anything substantive to the conversation / debate, just personal attacks and wise ass remarks.

Please, join the debate and show me where im wrong. Or do you attack me because you cant refute my information?

Apparently the easy road is your choice.,



posted on Jun, 14 2011 @ 11:34 PM
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reply to post by Xcathdra
 


Instead of wasting your (and more importantly) my time answering any of your questions, I direct you to page 2

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Where magically the answers appear.

I'm done brandying words in this thread.

Until next time

-Minions of Skerrako



posted on Jun, 14 2011 @ 11:38 PM
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reply to post by Xcathdra
 



Your the one who lied about your past so its up to you to correct your mistake. Were you lieing then, or were you lieing now. Besides, your the one who said it, so if it bugs you that much, quit being lazy and go find the quote yourself (to borrow your old fall back that you use when you dont have an answer).


Did I??
Seems to me you're making an accusation without proof..
It doesn't "bug me", I'm actually flattered that you are interested in me enough to either remember a past personal post or do you keep a dossier on anyone that disagrees with you??

I honestly don't remember if I've ever posted a lie about myself and certainly don't recall doing it..
But heck, does everyone tell the truth about themselves on the net??
Are you really a LEO ??



posted on Jun, 14 2011 @ 11:42 PM
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Originally posted by Skerrako
reply to post by backinblack
 


He always does that. You prove Xcathdra wrong and he repeats the same thing you just refuted him on. Believe me, your not the only one it has happened to.


Yes I know..
I get called an "american basher" because that's like calling the race card or anti-semetic card, an easy out..
Though they miss the fact that I also complain about my own Government, in fact I think the majority of world Governments are corrupt..
I'm certainly not bashing the people, only their leaders..



posted on Jun, 14 2011 @ 11:42 PM
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reply to post by Skerrako
 


Ah yes.. your famous drive by trolling. When confronted with facts, you turn tails and run.

I ask again, explain how I am wrong in this thread. It discusses Russias concern about a training excersize that has been occuring for 13 years now. I know your argument is the typical hate america routine, but you can at least partake in the debate instead of just crying and running away when you are aske direct questions.

Why are you singaling out the US when there are other countries present in the training exercise?

I really would liek you to provide an answer to this question.



posted on Jun, 14 2011 @ 11:46 PM
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reply to post by backinblack
 


How about you take part in the topic instead of you and skerraro doing your usual bash routine? I dont mind you bashing the US, all I have ever asked is for you to provide a source for your accusations, which is something you fail to do.

Even now, instead of engaging in th debate, you are going back to personal attacks and drawing the conversation off topic again. Do you do this because you dont know how to engage in a debate with people who know how to do research and refute your lies with facts and sources to support those facts?

Explain how the US naval vessels, which number as 2, are a threat to Russian forces in the Black Sea? Explain why the other 10 countries present who have their naval forces present, are conviently left out of that "concern".

Think you can manage to stay on topic l;ong enough to answer those questions? If not, dont bother responding.



posted on Jun, 14 2011 @ 11:49 PM
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reply to post by Xcathdra
 



Or were you just grasping at straws in hopes of sounding like you know what your talking about?


As you say, our views are at totally opposite ends of the spectrum..

You see the US as the good guy jumping in to help out other nations.
I see them as Empire Building..
Everything they do is to benefit themselves..

With that in mind, you see all these exercises as training.
I see them as provocative shows of force..

Who's wrong or right is merely an opinion so who really knows what they are talking about??



posted on Jun, 14 2011 @ 11:52 PM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



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