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Russian Foreign Ministry calls U.S. warship in Black Sea "Security Threat"

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posted on Jun, 13 2011 @ 08:24 PM
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reply to post by maloy
 


The treaty you are referring to relates solely to commerce shipping, not a joint military exercise.

And yes, a TU-95 Bear did violate aispace over Guam in addition to Canada the UK and Norway by physically entering their territorial airspace.

I am not refering to international airspce, and when you responded the second time quoting all of my links, at no point did I ever say they violated any territorial waters either.

They are there conduction joint training with Ukraine, and since the Ukrain is sovereign they have every right to conduct traqining with whomever they choose and where.

Also, you ignored the key point - That Russia not only knew about the NATO - Ukraine training on air land and sea, they have known it occurs every year for the last 13 years. Russia also took part in air hijacking scenarios in the same area the fleet scenarios are in.

Russia is just wanting to make hay out of nothing. 1 vessel on a training exercise is not a threat, especially when Russia had the logistical information and was briefed on the training scenario.
edit on 13-6-2011 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)




posted on Jun, 13 2011 @ 08:55 PM
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Originally posted by Xcathdra
reply to post by maloy
 


The treaty you are referring to relates solely to commerce shipping, not a joint military exercise.


Where does it say that? The Motreux Convention was created specifically to limit military presence of outside nations. It extends to military exercises too. It doesn't matter if it is a joint military exercise - the gross tonnage limit applies at all times, as does the requirement that military ships of countries not bordering the Black Sea be present in the sea for no longer than 21 days. There are no exceptions to this.



Originally posted by Xcathdra
And yes, a TU-95 Bear did violate aispace over Guam in addition to Canada the UK and Norway.


Again, can you post a link to anywhere that states that the national airspace of Guam was trespassed? Here is a direct quote from the article that you posted about Guam:



Update: A US General, on the other hand, says that the Russian planes didn’t even get within 500 kilometers (300 miles) of Guam: “U.S. planes went to an orbit point in preparation for an intercept that never occurred because the Bears didn’t get close enough”.


Here is the UN Law on Territorial Sea and Contiguous Zone by the way:



1. The sovereignty of a coastal State extends, beyond its land territory and internal waters and, in the case of an archipelagic State, its archipelagic waters, to an adjacent belt of sea, described as the territorial sea.

2. This sovereignty extends to the air space over the territorial sea as well as to its bed and subsoil.




Every State has the right to establish the breadth of its territorial sea up to a limit not exceeding 12 nautical miles, measured from baselines determined in accordance with this Convention.


www.un.org...



Originally posted by Xcathdra
I am not refering to international airspce, and when you responded the second time quoting all of my links, at no point did I ever say they violated any territorial waters either


Then what airspace did they violate? The only airspace that is restricted in any way in international law is that based on territorial waters. There is no other "airspace" that anyone needs to be concerned about - it is international waters/airspace, meaning that Russia can parade their entire fleet and airforce there, and all UK can do is pound sand. Whatever perceived airspace UK or anyone else may have - absolutely does not matter to other nations that are privy to the UN conventions. Russia's scope of operations is in accordance with international laws, and does not fall in UK or anyone else's jurisdiction.



Originally posted by Xcathdra
They are there conduction joint training with Ukraine, and since the Ukrain is sovereign they have every right to conduct traqining with whomever they choose and where.


The Montreux convention still applies at all times, to the entire Black Sea. The warships belonging to Ukraine are excluded from the convention - whereas US warships are included. It doesn't matter if US is holding joint exercises or was invited by anyone - unless the US transfers possession and registration of the said warships to Ukraine.



Originally posted by Xcathdra
Also, you ignored the key point - That Russia not only knew about the NATO - Ukraine training on air land and sea, they have known it occurs every year for the last 13 years.


Ok, that doesn't mean that Russia can't voice its concerns about it. Again, Russia is not telling US that it can't have its ships there. It is simply raising the awareness and alertness of its own forces.



Originally posted by Xcathdra
Russia is just wanting to make hay out of nothing. 1 vessel on a training exercise is not a threat, especially when Russia had the logistical information and was briefed on the training scenario.


Some can say that Iran is not a threat to US or NATO, since it doesn't even have ICBM capable of reaching either. Are you going to argue about the US throwing a hissy fit about bad old Iran threatening world peace?



posted on Jun, 14 2011 @ 04:01 AM
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reply to post by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi
 


In all your anti-American rants your forgetting one major thing. The USA still has a ton of untapped resources. Heck if we wanted to we could close our borders and end all foreign trade and diplomatic relations and do just fine for a few hundred years.

Current global politics are more for the UK and EU benefit then the USA(which is why I advocate putting the UK as an enemy because in the end Britain will try to do to America what it did to India).



posted on Jun, 14 2011 @ 05:23 AM
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Originally posted by korathin
reply to post by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi
 


In all your anti-American rants your forgetting one major thing. The USA still has a ton of untapped resources. Heck if we wanted to we could close our borders and end all foreign trade and diplomatic relations and do just fine for a few hundred years.

Current global politics are more for the UK and EU benefit then the USA(which is why I advocate putting the UK as an enemy because in the end Britain will try to do to America what it did to India).


Then please do return to isolationist policies. I actually like most of what the US was up to the end of WWII, because it kept to itself (aside from trying to furfill manifest destiny, that is). Then after defeating Japan and retaining a massive military force, the US decided to start interfering with international geopoliticals for its own gain (starting with Israel and Korea).

Oh, and no the US does not have much untapped resources. The US consumes far more oil than it can produce because it has already tapped it, hence while it needs to acquire oil from Canada and the middle east.

Do you have any idea how much meat the US population eats? Do you have any comprehension of how much oil your industrial farms require to feed you? The two largest consumers of oil in the US are its agriculture sector and military. Why do you think the US wages imperialist war so it can maintain resources?

Your country could never survive if it went back to isolationalism. Most of your poverty stricken population would riot in a matter of days while your corporate and political elite would enjoy $100 meals. The US's inability to fuel its agricultural sector would lead to massive rioting and revolts, resulting in nationwide crackdowns. This would lead to civil war.



posted on Jun, 14 2011 @ 05:41 AM
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Originally posted by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi
Then please do return to isolationist policies. I actually like most of what the US was up to the end of WWII, because it kept to itself (aside from trying to furfill manifest destiny, that is). Then after defeating Japan and retaining a massive military force, the US decided to start interfering with international geopoliticals for its own gain (starting with Israel and Korea).


Yeah, we tried to stay out of both world wars, and in the end we got sucked in because Europe thought appeasement would be a better avenue than actually standing up and saying no. I guess if a country in Europe decised to get nostalgic and start WWIII, you guys can handle it yourself.



Originally posted by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi
Oh, and no the US does not have much untapped resources. The US consumes far more oil than it can produce because it has already tapped it, hence while it needs to acquire oil from Canada and the middle east.


Actually we do, and that includes oil. We dont tap it so years down the road, when the Middle East dries out, it will come back to the US and Russia as major producers and exporters.



Originally posted by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi
Do you have any idea how much meat the US population eats? Do you have any comprehension of how much oil your industrial farms require to feed you? The two largest consumers of oil in the US are its agriculture sector and military. Why do you think the US wages imperialist war so it can maintain resources?

Your country could never survive if it went back to isolationalism. Most of your poverty stricken population would riot in a matter of days while your corporate and political elite would enjoy $100 meals. The US's inability to fuel its agricultural sector would lead to massive rioting and revolts, resulting in nationwide crackdowns. This would lead to civil war.


We do just fine with food production, and we are an exporting nation. To give you an idea of just how large the US is, you can take every single man woman and child and place them all in the State of Texas, and you would still have room in Texas for growth.

As far as isolationism, I think we would do just fine.

I have no issues if other countries want to take up the title as world policeman. I think its high time some of these other countries actually meet their own expectations they put on the US.

I know China is positioning itself to be the US replacement on the world stage.

Have fun with that.
edit on 14-6-2011 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 14 2011 @ 06:17 AM
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Originally posted by Xcathdra

Originally posted by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi
Oh, and no the US does not have much untapped resources. The US consumes far more oil than it can produce because it has already tapped it, hence while it needs to acquire oil from Canada and the middle east.


Actually we do, and that includes oil. We dont tap it so years down the road, when the Middle East dries out, it will come back to the US and Russia as major producers and exporters.


We've gone over this so many times in university with experts on peak oil, politicians, etc. This is especially true when we try to understand expansion of the Athabasca tar sands, because most of the bitumen is going straight to the US. The fact is that the US has tapped most of its accessible oil. It needs Canadian oil, and it needs oil imported.

It is true that the US wants OPEC to run out of oil, but the amount of oil that the US is sitting on is nowhere near as much as you hope it to be. On top of that, your quality of oil production is now poor.

Do you know what "peak oil production per derrick" means? It means that when you pump enough oil out of a single well to hit its peak production, then the means to get the rest of the oil out of it makes the entire process unproductive. That's the reality of tapped oil. Just because you have oil still in your wells doesn't mean you can get it, at least not without permanently destroying the environment in the process.


We do just fine with food production, and we are an exporting nation. To give you an idea of just how large the US is, you can take every single man woman and child and place them all in the State of Texas, and you would still have room in Texas for growth.


No, you don't "do just fine" with industrial farms. It's sick and disgusting that your capitalist system has devised such horrible agricultural techniques that not only torture animals into lives of despair, but has also developed its own bacterial epidemics in doing so (such as ecoli strains).

Instead of reforming factory farming, your agriculture corporations cover over the problem with more chemical solutions.

You want to see an example of acceptable agriculture? Look at Cuba. They learned through hardship how to do it right. When the USSR collapsed and the US tried to starve them into "democratic reforms" during the 90s, they reformed their system so it wouldn't depend on oil. Their entire agriculture sector is now green. It includes actual farms with actual cattle roaming around in grass where they fertilize the crops with their crap; multi-story gardens side-by-side buildings in major population centres; and effective pesticides developed with natural materials, not oil or chemicals.

This is how it should be done, but we would never see it in the West as long as the owners of agri-corporations compete to make better profits instead of working together for the common good (I'm sure the owners of these corporations know better than to eat the garbage that they produce. You do know that commercial ground beef in the West is bleached white and only appears red because of food colouring, right?).

And you're trying to tell me about growth? You think you can put 333 million Americans into Texas and still have growth? I live in the second largest nation on Earth with a 33 million population, and we still don't seem to have enough distance between us to both maintain the environment and our needs.


As far as isolationism, I think we would do just fine.

I have no issues if other countries want to take up the title as world policeman. I think its high time some of these other countries actually meet their own expectations they put on the US.

I know China is positioning itself to be the US replacement on the world stage.

Have fun with that.


Wow, this feels surreal trying to discuss the world with you.

You really think the world needs a "policeman"?

You really think the world appreciates the US for what it has done to us?

You think other countries like China are out to take your "policeman" role away from you?

China is the oldest civilization of our modern world. They have no plans to dictate the world. One nation has no right to dictate all people. China doesn't plan on commiting social suicide by doing what the US has done to destroy itself among the minds of the common individual.
edit on 14-6-2011 by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 14 2011 @ 06:19 AM
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Originally posted by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi
You really think the world appreciates the US for what it has done to us?


Nevermind.. This comment right here above explains everything we need to know about your point of view and teh argument you are trying to make.

Which country are you from?



posted on Jun, 14 2011 @ 06:22 AM
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Originally posted by Xcathdra

Originally posted by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi
You really think the world appreciates the US for what it has done to us?


Nevermind.. This comment right here above explains everything we need to know about your point of view and teh argument you are trying to make.

Which country are you from?


For the hundreth time that I've told you: CANADA.

Can you not read "British Columbia" under my avatar? I even explained it in my post that you just quoted.

Talking to you is like clapping with one hand. I'm done with this.

Have fun extracting your "vast untapped resources" when pulling the post-peak oil out of the ground costs more than the value of the oil itself.



posted on Jun, 14 2011 @ 06:28 AM
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Originally posted by Xcathdra

Originally posted by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi
You really think the world appreciates the US for what it has done to us?


Nevermind.. This comment right here above explains everything we need to know about your point of view and teh argument you are trying to make.

Which country are you from?


Many would agree they would rather do without US "so called" help...

I'm sickened by all the macho US BS some like you spew..
IMO the US should stay out of other people's business more often than not..

How many countries are the US now attacking??
Is it 5 or 6 and what will it be tomorrow??

BTW, I like the average American..



posted on Jun, 14 2011 @ 06:34 AM
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Originally posted by backinblack

Originally posted by Xcathdra

Originally posted by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi
You really think the world appreciates the US for what it has done to us?


Nevermind.. This comment right here above explains everything we need to know about your point of view and teh argument you are trying to make.

Which country are you from?


Many would agree they would rather do without US "so called" help...

I'm sickened by all the macho US BS some like you spew..
IMO the US should stay out of other people's business more often than not..

How many countries are the US now attacking??
Is it 5 or 6 and what will it be tomorrow??

BTW, I like the average American..


Now the US Senate Arms Commitee has said they are planning to attack Syria. That's the plan for tomorrow.



posted on Jun, 14 2011 @ 09:38 AM
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edit on 14-6-2011 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 14 2011 @ 09:39 AM
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reply to post by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi
 


You are like a broken record man.. Do some research before opening your mouth, it will make you look less uninformed that you already are.

Why dont you take some time and research the latest US advances in oil extraction?
While your at it spend some time researching the new oil fields that have been discovered in the Gulf of Mexico, Texas and the Northern Plain states.

When your done doing that, then come back and school us on what our resource availability is.

And while your at it you can drop the typical Canadian Inferiority complex that you decide to bring with you in almost every thread you post in.

Now, if your done with the off topic geek bravado, how about we return to the topic at hand, which is Russias unfounded usual feign of ignorance about what the US is doing even though weve been holding the same exercises the last 13 years.

Do you have anything to add to that conversation?

Also, your ignorance about the US is showing through again. The Committee can make all the comments they want. Since they are nowhere near a military chain of command what they want does not matter in the least.

Way to deomstrate your lack of knowledge about the Us though.
edit on 14-6-2011 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)

edit on 14-6-2011 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 14 2011 @ 09:41 AM
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reply to post by backinblack
 


I think your just jealous that we are able to defend our country instead of allowing it to be taken over by people who are religous zealots who kill innocent people for fun.

Instead of criticising the US, why dont you leave your comfy Western lifestyle and go back and retake your country instead of letting other people do it. Or are you just resigned to defeat and have given up on it all together?

Or is that to hard for you to do?

I will take the title of Macho any day of the week instead of just rolling over and surrendering. Also, care to explain how your personal attack on me is part of the topic at hand? I
edit on 14-6-2011 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 14 2011 @ 07:34 PM
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reply to post by Xcathdra
 


Have a good look around you before considering me jealous..

I live in the land of plenty, you poor guys are facing bankruptcy,no jobs and endless war..
I feel sorry for the American people, not jealous..



posted on Jun, 14 2011 @ 08:06 PM
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here we go...russia again...the old bear

Russia, borders the Black Sea right next to Ukraine., and the area has long been considered something like "Russia's area".



posted on Jun, 14 2011 @ 08:29 PM
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To be fair, the majority of Ukraine's Black Sea coast line (including all of Crimea) was actually not original terroritory of historical Ukraine, and has not belonged to Ukraine until relatively recently. It was the territory largely occupied by the Khanate and the Ottoman Empire. Through a series of wars spanning 17-19 centuries, Russia won those lands. It was only after that, that they were gifted to Ukraine, because it made sense from geographical perspective. Crimea only became Ukrainian in 1960's (gifted by Khruschev as a good will gesture). The majority of the population on Ukraine's Black Sea coast line is still in fact Russian, and a large portion is pro-Russian and fiercely anti-NATO.

This historical context allows you to see why some Russians have this perspective. Crimea is still a large Russian-speaking, Russian-culture region. A good 80% of the population there is very fiercely anti-NATO/US, and have in the past been determined to prevent any exercises held there with NATO. The more pro-NATO leadership in Kiev however, has in the past used the exercises with NATO/US as a political tool to show Crimea who is the "boss".

It is really a delicate matter in Crimea, and US is not making things better by actively seeking out to hold these exercises there, despite massive protests from the locals. Don't be surprised at Russia's response - that is what US gets when it stick its nose in everyone's business around the world.
edit on 14-6-2011 by maloy because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 14 2011 @ 08:42 PM
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reply to post by maloy
 


We have already had Russin forces conducting joint exercises with Venezuela in the Caribean sea. They are joint exercises, not invasion plans in disguise.

The paranoia being expressed by the Russians is being done for another reason and has nothing to do with the joint exercises. Almost all American warships are going to be outfitted with the item I spoke about a few posts back that essentially make all Us warships with misile capability part of a defense shield. One vessel in the black sea is not a threat.

Russia has alreaady pushed ahead with its next generation of mirv warheads, which our defense shield cant stop. The view that this is directed at Russia is based on a lack of understanding of the mad concept. Russia has enough nuclear weapons to render the shield useless.

The other part people ignore is the fact the Russians also mastered miniaturization that is neded to place nuclear missiles on submaries, which again is another platform our defense shield is not geared towards.

We are more concerned with a rogue nuclear attack than we are going to war and it turning nuclear with Russia.

This is Russia saberratteling and nothing more.



Originally posted by backinblack
reply to post by Xcathdra
 


Have a good look around you before considering me jealous..

I live in the land of plenty, you poor guys are facing bankruptcy,no jobs and endless war..
I feel sorry for the American people, not jealous..


Yup.. at the rate we are going we will be just like Afghanistan in no time.
/end sarcasm.

The land of plenty you refer to is your adopted home country. Any particular reason you embrace the ideals of the West while criticising it at every step in your arguments? As I said before, it boils down to you being jealous and nothing more.

The US is not going anywhere anytime soon, no matter how much you wish it will happen. The difference between Americans and yourself, is we will actually stick around in our country and try to fix and make changes, instead of running away from it and blaming everyone else.

Now, do you have anything to add to the Topic of Russia whining about Nato joint exercises?
edit on 14-6-2011 by Xcathdra because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 14 2011 @ 08:55 PM
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reply to post by Xcathdra
 


Everything you just posted is ignorant rubbish..
Firstly, at age 2, I don't think my decision to leave England was sort by my parents..
Having lived in Australia over 50 years I do and always have considered it home..

Secondly, my criticism of the US has always been on it's leaders, not it's people of lifestyle and many in the US agree with me..

Thirdly, again please tell me why and of what i should be jealous?

Every thread on ATS you 100% support TPTB..
You sound like Obama's press secretary but actually go even further..



posted on Jun, 14 2011 @ 09:00 PM
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reply to post by backinblack
 


So then your answer would be no, you dont have anything at all to add to the discussion of Russia, the Black Sea and joint Nato Ukraine exercises.

Instead you would rather whine some more about something you know nothing about. Also you really should keep track of what information you post in these forums. It makes it easy for people to go back and call you our for lieing, like I should be doing about the history you just posted about yourself.

Ill give you the opprotunity to correct your mistake.

Now, do you have anything to add about Russia and what is going on in the Blakc Sea? If not, then please head to one of the many I hate America because I am to blinded by ignorance threads and let us get back to the debate.



posted on Jun, 14 2011 @ 09:07 PM
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reply to post by Xcathdra
 



It makes it easy for people to go back and call you our for lieing, like I should be doing about the history you just posted about yourself.


Please do...
Though how many don't exactly tell the truth about themselves on an anonymous website?
Like who are you really??

The topic?
We all know the US deliberately holds these provocative exercises any chance they get..
We've seen it around Taiwan and Korea recently..
It's just what the US do....
If you want to be seen as the world police and general bully then you have to be seen as such..



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