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Why do you WANT chemtrails to be real?

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posted on Aug, 21 2011 @ 04:46 PM
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Originally posted by XPLodER
...chemtrails are real "because" the diss info is so strong
and because the posting style of some members is identical...


Hmmm. We people who don't believe in chemtrails can say the same thing....

...All chemtrail conspiracy believers keep repeating the same "party line" and keep using the same evidence (even after that evidence has been debunked, such as the Broookhaven Laboratory plane or the KC-130 fuel dump).

In my eyes, the truth is the truth, and the hoax is born out of all the same lies (i.e., contrails can't persist and soils show evidence of spraying). Therefore, obviously the evidence each side uses will sound the the same, depending on the side.



edit on 8/21/2011 by Soylent Green Is People because: (no reason given)




posted on Aug, 21 2011 @ 04:59 PM
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Originally posted by Soylent Green Is People

Originally posted by XPLodER
...chemtrails are real "because" the diss info is so strong
and because the posting style of some members is identical...


Hmmm. We people who don't believe in chemtrails can say the same thing....

...All chemtrail conspiracy believers keep repeating the same "party line" and keep using the same evidence (even after that evidence has been debunked, such as the Broookhaven Laboratory plane or the KC-130 fuel dump).



debate me
i am willing to have a proper discussion with you

i will use facts and links and i bet you have not heard what i have to say

facts
1. chemtrails have been sprayed in new zealand at least twice that has been released
2. hospitals were "watched" for "spikes" in illnesses
3. the first in the 60s the second in the 90s
4. the public was not told for thirty years
5. people got sick and died from the spray (mainly chest infections asmah ect)

people who say it cant be done are insulting the people in nz that DIED
people who said it cant happen again were suprised at the 90s spraying

it caused such an upset that we were promised it would not happen again

in the 2000s it was the painted apple moth spraying,
hospitals were monitered again and people died again (lung ect)

so now spraying is done out in the open under emergency legislation that allows for such spraying to be done with little or no oversight.

so could someone spray?
yes
have they done so before
yes
why did they spray
to see how many are effected
could they do it on a much bigger scale
you bet your ass
would you "know about it"
not for atleaast 30 years
so how to keep it seceret
sock puppets and diss info
is there a history of this happining
yes
does history repeat
YES

do you trust my govenment to not spray me
because i dont trust yours not to spray you

xploder



posted on Aug, 21 2011 @ 05:04 PM
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I know they are real, but I, for one, like my lungs, brain, heart, and life too much to want them to be. I don't see why anyone would actually WANT them to be real, but to each their own, I guess!



posted on Aug, 21 2011 @ 05:22 PM
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reply to post by XPLodER
 


Good for you!! Keep fighting the good fight!! I thank you for your post!!!
This is one of mine from another thread the same Debunkers were in talking the same things...

Do I have to explain that even water can be contaminated with low levels of Poisionous Chemicals that are not "Petrolium Based etc ) and when it turns to STEAM THE STEAM WOULD BE POISIONOUS !! That Chem and CONTRAIL Title given in an attempt to fool people into believing they are seeing things as they always have and must therefor be suffering from retardation that affects their memory is a bunch of Crap !! The lies are always for the same reasons. The PTB know that people of the world wouldnt go for it . The only thing that changes is the lie that we are meant and sometimes do believe !! Change We Can Believe In ! You better believe it. There are some foul things on the horizon and its not all comets and earthquakes. The hand of man will be the greatest terrorist !!

PS My friends in the Medical Professions also agree that there is a Spike in Lung and Lung related or Airborn causes in recent years , starting in the early 2000's !! Let them DE Bunk that fact...



posted on Aug, 21 2011 @ 05:37 PM
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reply to post by CherubBaby
 


lol thanks and thanks for the post

something i have been watching is for the sock puppets to stop posting untill they are sure im gone
lol
i have a list of tactics used by diss info

i can now see them clearly and have documented their tactics and posting style even common theams of threads posted in ect.

the lung evidence is especially daming,
so is the independant rain fall data,
so is the Global warming idea to "spay the clouds" to reflect the heat from the sun,

i could go on but i think when people realise that new zealand citizens died from chemtrails
they should think twice about beleiving the govenments of the world "getting a concience"

alot of govenments when they get to powerfull
try to kill of their populations

pol pot
stalin
hitler

history repeats,
the head of the food and drug administration in america is a know population reduction advocate
the elite always end up genosidal if to much power is given to them

mabey chems are the new gas chamber, it just takes longer to die

xploder



posted on Aug, 21 2011 @ 05:40 PM
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Originally posted by XPLodER

i will use facts and links and i bet you have not heard what i have to say

facts
1. chemtrails have been sprayed in new zealand at least twice that has been released


Insect spraying in Auckland in the 1990's and early 200's - nothing at all like contrails from airliners at high altitude.

And in fact crop dusting and spraying for pests happens in New Zealand on a regular basis - there is quiet a well developed agricultural aviation industry there.


2. hospitals were "watched" for "spikes" in illnesses


When and where, and why?

Hospitals are ALWAYS on the lookout for spikes in illness - since you like New Zealand so much, for example the recent outbreak of Measels in Aucklnd??

Edit: I see now you are talkign about eth Moth sprays in Auckland - yes hospitals were on het lookout for any effects - and it was widely advertised at eth time - I had a sister living in Auckland during the spraying & heard all about it.

You can find the report on health effects here - biosecurity site - they report no noticeable increases in any symptoms between areas sprayed and control zones, let alone any deaths..



3. the first in the 60s the second in the 90s


Edit: What about the Moth spraying in Auckland from October 1996 to April 1997 (known as Operation Ever Green)?


Or the spraying over Hamilton in 2003??


4. the public was not told for thirty years
5. people got sick and died from the spray (mainly chest infections asmah ect)


Link??


people who say it cant be done are insulting the people in nz that DIED


So you should be able to point us to the reports that link the spraying as the cause of death??


people who said it cant happen again were suprised at the 90s spraying

it caused such an upset that we were promised it would not happen again

in the 2000s it was the painted apple moth spraying,
hospitals were monitered again and people died again (lung ect)


Again you should be able to point us to the reports that link the spraying with the deaths.

I am well aware of the agricultural and pest spraying - and AFAIK there were no deaths specifically linked to it - plenty of people complained tho.


so now spraying is done out in the open under emergency legislation that allows for such spraying to be done with little or no oversight.


Not at all - it was done with plenty of oversight from the ministry of ag and fish at the time, and using the Biosecurity Act that was passed in 1993 - years before the 1990 & 200's spraying happened.



so could someone spray?
yes


Never been in doubt - and insect sprays are still commonly used around the world.


have they done so before
yes
why did they spray
to see how many are effected
could they do it on a much bigger scale
you bet your ass


None of which has ever ben in doubt either.....



would you "know about it"
not for atleaast 30 years


And yet the apple moth spray you use as an example was well advertised in advance, ther were multiple reports about it, the aircraft were flying low over a large built up city and could not be hidden.....and no-one tried to - indeed they advertised wher the spraying was goign to happen!


so how to keep it seceret
sock puppets and diss info
is there a history of this happining
yes
does history repeat
YES

do you trust my govenment to not spray me
because i dont trust yours not to spray you

xploder



Whether you trust them or not, your example fails your own criteria (secret for 30 years) and also does not fit the basic criteria for chemtrails - it was not secret, it was not military, it was not done by airliners flying at high altitude.

It was well publicised pest control of a type that happens regularly around the world.

By all means be against such pest sprays - but you should not confuse them with what chemtrails are supposed to be.

ou might like to read the NZ Ombudsman's report in to the 2003-4 spraying - it makes a lot of recommendations about informing the public that I think you would probably agree with.


edit on 21-8-2011 by Aloysius the Gaul because: Edited: add comments regarding spraying in Auckland that the OP mentioned

edit on 21-8-2011 by Aloysius the Gaul because: spelling & add link to ombudsmans report



posted on Aug, 21 2011 @ 05:47 PM
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reply to post by XPLodER
 


So, you're telling me that people have gotten sick from pesticide spraying. OK -- I don't doubt that, but what does that have to do with the thing that some people refer to as "chemtrails"?

I hope you're not equating pesticide spraying with "contrails", because the idea of contrails revolves around the (false) allegations that long persistent contrails in the sky are not natural, and therefore must be deliberately-sprayed chemicals. Plus, pesticides are sprayed at 500 feet, and contrails form at about 30,000 feet and higher.


edit on 8/21/2011 by Soylent Green Is People because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 21 2011 @ 05:51 PM
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Originally posted by CherubBaby
reply to post by adeclerk
 


I don't want to dignify the question because it insinuates that you are able to read the minds of people that are concerned with maybe the simple truth that regardlesss of the content contained in the spray that comes from the aircraft, we have a right to a clear unobstructed sky!!!


No you don't - clouds get in the way all the time!!


But a little moreseriously - if you don't want contrails to obstruct the sky somewhat then it's quite simple - make a/c fly lower and be prepared to pay more for everything that travels by air and also suffer from the increased pollution it will cause (because flying lower uses up more fuel, and the a/c also have to fly slower), or do without air travel entirely.

given that the whole "chemtrail" thing is about some sort of chemicals beign "sprayed" your post isn't really on topic - perhaps you should start one complaining about contrails cluttering up the sky - that is not unreasonable, the cause is well known, and it IS actually something that could be changed.

Whereas non-existent chemtrail spray programmes are kind of hard to do anything about!!



posted on Aug, 21 2011 @ 06:01 PM
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i was waiting for this tactic to be used,
try to confuse the issiue with "normal" use of sprays,
number 8 on the list of tactics,
try to confuse the issiue with "safe" sprays to make people unsure of the difference

i will clear that up for you
the spraying of the 60s and 90s was seceret high altitude spraying,
we dont know what is was or what is in it
chemtrails

they then decided that new zealanders wouldnt stand for more spraying,
so they used pesticides as a cover to low level spray the place
"still" chemtrails.

every time they sprayed we knew nothing of what was "acually" being sprayed,
every time the hospitals were monitered

so now the high alititude chem trails are low alititude ag chemicals,

the exact same tactic used here,
confuse the terminology but do the same thing

xplodr



posted on Aug, 21 2011 @ 06:06 PM
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Originally posted by XPLodER
ii will clear that up for you
the spraying of the 60s and 90s was seceret high altitude spraying,
we dont know what is was or what is in it
chemtrails



What high altitude spraying in teh 1960's and 1990's??

You havent' identified or linked to anything of the kind actually happening - how about showing the prvenance of your accusations as a starting point??.


so now the high alititude chem trails are low alititude ag chemicals,


Taht doesnt' make sense sorry - agricultural chemicals are well known - yoi can go to your local supplier and buy them from teeh same bins that the ag sprayers use.

Ag aircraft are quire distinctive, and aer obvious when they are spraying - have yuo seen any of htem spraying over cities??

Can you be specific about what you think the link is please??



posted on Aug, 21 2011 @ 06:07 PM
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We are getting a bit off-topic here. The topic concerns why it seems some people WANT to believe conspiracy theories in general, and the chemtrail theory specifically.

I propose it's due to some people who welcome and embrace the "victim mentality" because it puts them in an "us versus them" struggle, which makes some people feel good about being inclusive -- included in a larger group (i.e., the larger group of innocent victims in a struggle against an alleged overbearing PTB).

I think that is the basis for the belief in most conspiracy theories, not just the chemtrail conspiracy theory.





edit on 8/21/2011 by Soylent Green Is People because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 21 2011 @ 06:16 PM
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Originally posted by Soylent Green Is People
We are getting a bit off-topic here. The topic concerns why it seems some people WANT to believe conspiracy theories in general, and the chemtrail theory specifically.

I propose it's due to some people who welcome and embrace the "victim mentality" because it puts them in an "us versus them" struggle, which makes some people feel good about being inclusive -- included in a larger group (i.e., the larger group of innocent victims in a struggle against an alleged overbearing PTB).

I think that is the basis for the belief in most conspiracy theories, not just the chemtrail conspiracy theory.





edit on 8/21/2011 by Soylent Green Is People because: (no reason given)


i would sight the fact that spray programs have taken place and have been released to the public,
this is the obvoius place this chemtrailing idea started,
because there has been in the past spraying of populations,
why would it stop now?

this conspiracy is not generated by the public it is generated by fact it has happened before,
and in my opinion i can see no reason why it would have majically stopped

the high altitude nature of chemtrails is always going to generate fear as we have been sprayed before,
and what is the reason to beleive it does not occour now?

xploder



posted on Aug, 21 2011 @ 06:31 PM
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Originally posted by XPLodER
i would sight the fact that spray programs have taken place and have been released to the public,
this is the obvoius place this chemtrailing idea started,


then you would be wrong.

the history of the chemtrail hoax starts with a paper called "Owning the weather" written as a look into a possible future in the mid 1990's, when some USAF personnel postulated that being about to control weather would be a very powerful weapon - and it seems like quite a reasonable conclusion.



because there has been in the past spraying of populations,
why would it stop now?


It didn't "stop now" - it stopped decades ago.

And there is no evidence it was ever restarted.


this conspiracy is not generated by the public it is generated by fact it has happened before,
and in my opinion i can see no reason why it would have majically stopped


Your opinion isn't evidence that it never stopepd tho.

The type of spraying that was done was small trials, involving a few aircraft, and also ships & automobiles - cars/trucks. At least some of the results of the British trials have been published - the Americans are still paranoid about terrorists getting hold of the data and using it to plan biological bombs or something like that.

It stopped because it's purpose was achieved - they set out to study how biological and chemical weapons might disperse so they had a better idea how to use them to attack otehrs, and how to defend against them.

they used materials that they thought at the time were harmful - these days we think that everything is potentially harmful and usually it is, of course, in enough quantities - nonetheless the amounts they used seem to have been very small.

And the whole point of the various chemicals and micro-organisms they used was that they would be detectable - not that they weer totally invisible - they had to be detectable to get the data.


the high altitude nature of chemtrails is always going to generate fear as we have been sprayed before,
and what is the reason to beleive it does not occour now?


Because there is not 1 single piece of verifiable evidence to say that it is actually happening.

If "something" were being sprayed, then you'd expect to be able to detect the "something" in the air - you could detect theinsect sprays, you could detect the chemicals used for the warfare experiments decades ago.

And if the "something" was supposed to have some effect (make us sick make us stupid, kill us off, whatever) then you'd also expect that effect to show up.

But there isn't anything showing up at all.

There is this principle called "evidence of absence" - if something should show up, but isn't showing up, then its absence can be used as evidence that it actually isn't present.

And so it is with "chemtrails" - the complete absence of anything that could possibly be the products of "chemtrails" is evidence that they do not actually exist.


edit on 21-8-2011 by Aloysius the Gaul because: spelling



posted on Aug, 21 2011 @ 07:21 PM
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Originally posted by XPLodER
...the high altitude nature of chemtrails is always going to generate fear as we have been sprayed before,
and what is the reason to beleive it does not occour now?...


You mean the high-altitude creation of CONtrails, becuase the idea that high-altitude spraying of chemicals is what is in contention here.

Of course low-altitude spraying of chemicals exists, but there is no evidence whatsoever of high-altitude spraying. The trails seen coming from high-altitude flight (even the trails that persist for hours and spread out to form cloud cover) can easily be explain simply as contrails.

You have yet to provide evidence that those trails are something else. Simply saying "well, we know low-altitude spraying has been done before" is NOT evidence that high-altitude contrails are chemtrails.

I mean, if all of the trails that we see can be explained as simply contrails, then what evidence do you have that they are something other than contrails?


edit on 8/21/2011 by Soylent Green Is People because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 21 2011 @ 08:16 PM
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reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul
 


ok so this has gone from no such thing as chem trails,
to they dont do it any more

can you promise?

and the evidence you ask me to provide on the health effects is stunning!
can i prove that you are or are not getting poisened by chemtrails,
we dont even know whats in them to know what to look for,

so are you asking me to list possablke side effects from spraying chemicals of unknown origin?
cause if you are there could be any number of things not corrilated with spray that could happen,

the evidence of absencce is in incorrect use here,
prove the spraying has stoped no proof does not prove they have stopped
their evedence of absence

so i challenge you to prove they stopped spraying stuff,
because untill you can prove they have stopped,
the only proof is they have in the past..........
and if they have in the past what or who could stop them now?

xploder



posted on Aug, 21 2011 @ 08:34 PM
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Originally posted by XPLodER
reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul
 


ok so this has gone from no such thing as chem trails,
to they dont do it any more


No it hasn't.

It has gone from they did some experiments in the 1950'-70's to...they don't do those experiments any more.


can you promise?


the only thing I can promise is that no-one has shown me any evidence that anything resembling chemtrails actually exists.


and the evidence you ask me to provide on the health effects is stunning!
can i prove that you are or are not getting poisened by chemtrails,
we dont even know whats in them to know what to look for,


so how do you know anything is happening at all?

Wouldn't the first thing to do be to find out what is in them?

You have made accusations that people have been killed - wouldn't there be some evidence of that??


so are you asking me to list possablke side effects from spraying chemicals of unknown origin?
cause if you are there could be any number of things not corrilated with spray that could happen,


Of course - but you have said that the ill health is the result of the spray - if I misunderstood then I apologise.

If you clim there is some effect from the spray you must have some reason for making that claim - some evidence.

All I have asked you for is to provide that evidence.


the evidence of absencce is in incorrect use here,
prove the spraying has stoped no proof does not prove they have stopped
their evedence of absence


That's not what evidence of absence is.

Evidence of absence says that if there WAS something being sprayed, then there would be some evidence of it.

If ther eis no evidence of it then it is reasonable to assume that nothing is being sprayed.


so i challenge you to prove they stopped spraying stuff,
because untill you can prove they have stopped,
the only proof is they have in the past..........


And this is called "argument from ignorance" - you say that I cannot prove that the spraying has stopped, therefore it must be still continuing.

This is called a logical fallacy - you are making the claim that something is happening - some form of spraying - therefore the burden of proof is on you to provide some evidence to back up your claim.

there is a lot of evidence they are no longer spraying in the programmes they did in the 1950's-70's - the programmes themselves are finished, there is no evidence they are still going on, the "chemtrails" people are complaining about today do not show any of hte characteristics of those old programmes.

If you don't think this is enough evidence to satisfy you then that's your opinion.


and if they have in the past what or who could stop them now?


It would probably be technically quite simple to spray something these days - however New Zealand is, as I understand it, full of all sorts of environmental activists, such spraying would be patently obvious, and you'd quickly hear about it.

BTW you haven't actually said what it is YOU think chemtrails are - do you have some idea what it is youare against? Something specific, or jsut aerial polution in general.


edit on 21-8-2011 by Aloysius the Gaul because: spelling



posted on Aug, 22 2011 @ 10:05 AM
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reply to post by XPLodER
 

Obviously stuff is being sprayed. Just about every year where I live (Pennsylvania) we get sprayed from low-altitude aircraft for an insect known as the "Gypsy Moth". The state knows that the spraying could adversely affect some people with certain sensitivities, so the Pennsylvania State Department of Environmental Resources openly tell asthmatics and people with other breathing problems to be extra careful during the spraying events, and they warn everyone else, also.

So, yeah -- the spraying of chemicals that can make people sick is certainly still happening, and it isn't secret.

HOWEVER, this all has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the high-altitude contrails left mostly by jet airline traffic. Those contrails are what most chemtrail believers refer to when they talk about chemtrails. Again, what direct evidence do you have that shows that some of those things that look like contrails are really chemtrails?



posted on Aug, 22 2011 @ 10:19 AM
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Well,if you just open your mind, you would realized that chemtrails are very REAL.Look at the facts.Something is happening to our skies,and you can't denied it.

A thousand years ago,you couldn't see this strange figures on the sky.

A five hundred years ago,you couldn't see this strange figures on the sky.

A hundred years ago,you couldn't see this strange figures on the sky.

A fifty years ago,you couldn't see this strange figures on the sky.

Now you can see them almost everywhere.

So ask yourself.What this could be if we know it starting to happening a few decades ago.
Why is this happening and what are this strange figures on the sky?We have no idea.
We only know someone or something is messing up with our skies and our atmosphere.



posted on Aug, 22 2011 @ 10:25 AM
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Most people don't want chemtrails to be real, but the military wants them real so they can manipulate the weather. Why do you not want them to be real?



posted on Aug, 22 2011 @ 10:42 AM
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Originally posted by Nikola014
Well,if you just open your mind, you would realized that chemtrails are very REAL.Look at the facts.Something is happening to our skies,and you can't denied it.

A thousand years ago,you couldn't see this strange figures on the sky.

A five hundred years ago,you couldn't see this strange figures on the sky.

A hundred years ago,you couldn't see this strange figures on the sky.

A fifty years ago,you couldn't see this strange figures on the sky.

Now you can see them almost everywhere.

So ask yourself.What this could be if we know it starting to happening a few decades ago.
Why is this happening and what are this strange figures on the sky?We have no idea.
We only know someone or something is messing up with our skies and our atmosphere.


Could they be aircraft contrails? Aircraft were only invented 100 years ago, and high altitude travel really only got popular about 50 years ago, and has rapidly increased in recent decades. That seems to match your timeline.




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