Proposal: CIA, FBI, ATF, Military Intel are Criminal organizations

Historically it is common knowlege that the CIA has dealt drugs to raise money, the FBI used blackmail to manipulate goverment people.
My observations of details of Oklahoma City Bombing make it clear to me it was orchestrated with the knowlege of CIA, FBI and ATF.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Historically secret government organizations are an invitation to corruption. I believe there are some genuine 'black op' programs, but with all the secrecy no one really knows where the money goes. Defense companies are notorious for cost overruns and ineffective results even in non secret projects. Pork barrel du jour. (M16 rifle, Patriot missile, SDI)
www.jouster.com...
www.cbsnews.com...
www.peacemagazine.org...

The 9-11 attack has some glaring inconsistencies:
1) First plane hits building, NO FIREBALL
2) Second plane hits building, HUGE FIREBALL, (Hollywood style)
3) In photos the does appear to be something under the main body of jet in second wtc hit
4) Many questions about the size and shape of damage and lack of debris at pentagon.
5) How expensive would it have been to destroy those bulidings using careful legal demolition techniques? Very expensive i suspect.

Military intel had to have been involved in any pentagon coverup.

My thought: The reason the CIA, FBI and Military Intel cannot protect us is because they are the ones assaulting and murdering the American people.

Crime organizations that hide behind the US flag.

any opinions, evidence, pro or con?
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Slank - I couldn't agree more

While I don't deny that these groups could be running black projects, the notion that they staged the 9/11 events is sorta notorious and frankly, way over discussed here on ATS.

Try a search, you'll find several very long posts about the 9/11 stuff that go into very deep detail.

Wow...another U.S. government against the people of the world conspiracy.

Why, may i ask, do you believe that the government would carry out such an elaborate plot? Do you believe they would do it for a reason to attack a third world country in order to build an oil pipeline or some other dubious reason? Do you think the end goal is world domination? Is it a long standing plan to dominate Iraq or even the Middle East?


Imagine how many people it would take to pull off and then cover up such an extremely elaborate and sinister plot. Why go through the charade of hijacking 4 airplanes, crashing them into various places and then covering the whole thing up. I seriously doubt our governments ability to pull off such an elaborate scheme and keep it under wraps the way you claim it to have been. I have seen absolutly no credible evidence on any thread here or anywhere else on the internet to back up what you or many others here proclaim on this subject. The only "proof" that has been pointed out is pure speculation and theories. Oh look I think i see such and such in this photo or i heard someone say blah blah blah...I think it was a misslile that hit the pentagon therefore it must have been...etc. etc. etc.

I realize this is a conspiracy theory site but shouldn't these theories stem from something at least be based on some shred reality instead of pure imagination.

If the goverment wanted to secretly kill the American people why not just do it. They have the means to kill everyone who doesn't agree with them. Why not just scurry off to their enormous underground facilities, order the nuclear destruction of the world and then emerge as Supreme Rulers of the Planet Earth? Wouldn't it be much easier to control the world if there weren't anyone that needed to be kept in line? If our government is so corrupt as to kill 3000 americans, why stop there.



If money is the motive, why cause billions upon billions of dollars in damage to our own country just to pad someones pocket?


Ask yourself why? Why would the people in power go to such extraordinary measures to gain so little? Why would they be willing to do so much damage and just stop short of whatever nefarious goal you think they may have.

Just my $0.02

Sweeping accusations are part of this web site so I have to go with the flow.

The CIA/FBI/Military Intell have commited crimes. Yes. Are they currently criminal organizations? No. The CIA did not import drugs to finance guns for the Contras.Crack was created in an FBI lab to hook inner city kids.

Hoover was the last FBI director to keep files on Americans because he did not like how they thought.

And lastly put the blame where it belongs for the death of 3000 innocent AMericans. Squarley at the feet of those 19 loon bags.

I think there are people who have no problem using everyday people to aquire great wealth. It is indemic in this nation's history. Remember the good old days: "Your arm got ripped off in that machine, well you must have gotten careless, you're fired."

It is called capitalism, it has NO moral compass, and in extreme cases it doesn't even make long term sense.

Avarice driven people can rely on good people thinking it inconceivable that another human being could do something like that. "Jesus/God wouldn't allow that" or "That would be unpatriotic" , grow up little children.

Some known examples:
1. Coke a Cola in India drained all the local ground water from local wells. Then refiled them with waste water. It pays the local workers very low wages and reaps huge profits. But they're Indians, maybe they just don't count as people.
www.greenleft.org.au...
2. Mc Wayne pipe foundries here in US and Canada:
"And in this very dangerous business, where they make the water and sewer pipes essential to our lives, there is one company whose production, the government says, has left a trail of death and dismemberment."
"Since the 1970s, the McWane way of management has spread as the company aggressively expanded. It has estimated annual revenues approaching $2 billion."
www.pbs.org...
3. The patriot act's money laundering provisions were weakened after the tobacco companies objected to it.
"The section, which the Justice Department had requested to aid its crackdown on money laundering, would have rendered major tobacco companies accused of smuggling cigarettes overseas extremely vulnerable to legal challenge, and they wanted it out."
www.thenation.com...=20020429&s=schapiro20020418

How much reference material do you need me to produce to convince you that there are lots of nasty money grubbing people? Government is a natural place for them to focus their attentions, with it's extremely large budgets and the power to implement or rescind regulations.

Institutions that have historically engaged in criminal activity are more than likely to continue it, provided no one says anything.

These organizations have been breaking US laws for decades.
"These investigations revealed extensive covert and illegal counterintelligence programs involving the FBI, CIA, U.S. Army intelligence, the White House, the Attorney General, and even local and state law enforcement, directed against opponents of government domestic and foreign policy."
www.monitor.net...

CIA has been installing govements, disrupting economies and manipulating politics around the world for more than 50 years, in Nicaragua, Vietnam, Laos, Guatemala, Chile, Brazil, Bolivia, Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, etc., etc., etc..
www.lossless-audio.com...
[note: the above is an excellent overview of many of the CIA and US involvments around the world historically.]

How is it such a stretch that the CIA would attempt to manipulate the US people and government?

FBI has in the past operated in the manor of gangsters,
"When congressional investigations, political trials and other traditional legal methods of repression failed to counter the growing movements of the 1950s, '60s and '70s, and even helped fuel them, the FBI and police moved outside the law. They used secret and systematic methods of fraud and force, far beyond mere surveillance, . . "
www.monitor.net...

I don't find it useful to attempt to second guess the motivations of others, what i point out is actions taken.

It doesn't have to be some 'Grand Conspiracy' just some VERY greedy people with subordinates willing to carry out orders for them.

These are dirty people, who hide behind the flag and sometimes crucifixes.
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okay...you don't need any links to show me that there are some perhaps many corrupt companies that just goes hand in hand with human nature. Nor do you need links to show these agencies have overstepped their legal boundaries in the past.

However when I do start following your links I really begin to get confused. One of your links in your Oklahoma City Thread seems to reference the fact that Oklahoma City was bombed by McVeigh,Nichols and connect them with several arabs.

www.worldnetdaily.com...

On that same page there is a directly related link at the bottom

www.wnd.com...

which states that McVeigh and Nichols worked with several middle easten men led by none other than Osama Bin Ladin.....Hmmm what a great link I"ll have to remember it for future use. Furthermore it states that one of these men was a former Republican Guard from Iraq. The plot thickens. A link between Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Ladin, perhaps.


Quotes from you. I'm don't know how to properly incorporate then with quote boxes and what not...

from posted on 3-8-2004 at 04:26 AM Post Number: 703900 (post id: 724594)

The Oklahoma City Bombing (9-11?) was done to scare people about terrorists so they will give up their civil liberties.


re waco same thread:

1. ATF lied about Waco and therefore wanted to cover it up. [this seems to be alot of work and destruction just to burn a few files and records] (perhaps as a diversion for something else though)
2. Could ATF have thought this was the motivation, when in fact they were unwittingly convinced (brain washed?) to do it?
3. ATF negotiated with the CIA and FBI and this was the only 'event' the other agencies would accept where they wouldn't call ATF on it[becasue they have an agenda of fostering fear of terrorism] (sort of like alarm companies want to convince people of crime so they will by more alarms, CIA and FBI are in the business of preventing crime/terrorism)
4. It was done so that people would think it was ATF covering up for Waco, when in fact it had nothing to do with that, it was simply a vehicle for fostering fear of terrorism. To make whistle blowers who assume this motivation for fraud, seem less credible.
5. ATF didn't actually do it but was just informed it would happen by [CIA, FBI, other?]

Quote you this thread...

It doesn't have to be some 'Grand Conspiracy' just some VERY greedy people with subordinates willing to carry out orders for them.


It seems like you are saying OKC was to cover up waco and 9-11 was about money... which is starting to look like the mother of all conspiracies.

Your links show Bin ladin and possibly Iraq working with McVeigh and Nichols, orchestrated by the CIA in your words , blowing up the federal building in OKC.

If the CIA is working with Bin Ladin, why go through the risky charade of faking an attack on 9/11 ,causing billions upon billions of dollars in damage, just so we can invade Afghanistan just to build an oil pipeline?We already apparantly had an in with Bin Ladin.

Why go through so much trouble to gain so little?

No conspiracy here......it true. While I don't know about all the 9/11 crap....it's well known that these organizations are "strong arms" that stop at absolutely nothing to get their desired goals where they want them, and that includes doing what they are fighting against to achieve it!

An unspoken thought that day i saw the towers fall was that it looked like a controlled demolition. Both towers dropped almost exactly vertically. Would you concur with this observation?

"Observing the collapses on television news, Loizeaux [president of Controlled Demolition, Inc. Phoenix,MD] says the 1,362-ft-tall south tower, which was hit at about the 60th floor, failed much as one would like (sic) fell a tree. That is what was expected, says Loizeaux. But the 1,368-ft-tall north tower, similarly hit but at about the 90th floor, "telescoped," says Loizeaux. It failed vertically, he adds, rather than falling over. "I don't have a clue," says Loizeaux, regarding the cause of the telescoping."

"Romero [New Mexico engineer] said the collapse of the structures resembled those of controlled implosions used to demolish old structures. "
www.billstclair.com...

Think about how a demolitionist would have gone about destroying the building. They probably would have had to create/build enclosing structures to control it That would have been extremely expensive. Think about all the toxic debris that people became aware of much later after the blast, because the government hid that information from people. The responsible parties would have been open to HUGE lawsuits. What about all the businesses around the area having to shut down for days? Very expensive.

Economics:
" I would speculate that in 1989 through 1993, as the downtown real estate market was falling, there were perhaps reasons to suspect that the WTC owners might have contemplated the first bombing. After Battery Park attracted their biggest tenants, the property quickly lost it's viability. (At the time, Geoff Parker reported that a friend of his was given a whole floor in the South tower to use as a drumming studio, for free!) By 1996, the internet had decentralized the financial industry, further diminishing the lease/return opportunities of this property. ( I don't know the actual math, maybe it was going up again.)

The building cost about $1.5B to build and was worth about $4. to 5.B at its peak. But, it would have cost about $20B to un-build it in 2010 dollars, or as it neared its 1/2 'safe' life. Obviously it HAD to be imploded and there was never going to be a 'break-even' point for the owners."
www.rense.com...

What are a few thousand lives when a 15 billion dollar loss is at stake?
What about potential lawsuits in litigious America?

Now if it plays into political organizations, CIA, FBI, US Government, to have the American public in horror at some terrorist threat, you can kill two birds with one stone. The CIA and FBI now have a 'new' enemy now that the Soviet Union is bust. The governemt has a chance to rescind our civil rights, and the public is begging them to do it.

Everyone is happy.

Aren't you?
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So what you are telling me is:

the government rigged the building to fall with explosives, which takes months of prep work I might add. Managed the months of prep work without ANY witnesses. Still flew airplanes into the buildings as a cover...yada yada yada.

oops, sorry I was laughing so hard I accidentally hit the post reply button before I had a chance to finish. you've got a great fantasy going on there keep up the good work....

Slank....

You and others like you are wasting your lives trying to avoid reality. Besides, it is boring reading the same thing over and over again....about how the U.S. government is responsible for X. Not that I read what you wrote...first line told me that you are crazy.

Well the CIA couldn't exist without criminal activity so I suppose you could say that is was a 'criminal organisation' . However you cannot ignore the fact that all these agencies have loyal workers who are trying to make our world safer. Just a shame there are also so many corrupt peoples too.

Here is an affidavit from helicopter pilot of the US Army from 1982 to 1986 Dois Gene Tatum of the CIA importing Drugs into the US from Central America.

Among these activities were rampant drug smuggling into the United States involving people in control of the Central Intelligence Agency, the Drug Enforcement Administration, the armed forces of the United States, among others.

www.wethepeople.la...

Here is Michael Ruppert former LA narcotics officer who has tried for years to tell the story of CIA's involvment in supplying drug in US:

MICHAEL C. RUPPERT is a former Los Angeles Police Department narcotics officer who for over twenty years has been trying to bring to public attention his first-hand knowledge of CIA complicity in the drug trade flooding our inner cities with hard drugs as an apparent covert funding mechanism for the weapons trade for destabilizing populations around the world for their economic exploitation.

www.angelfire.com...

This is from a Memorandum sent to Robert W. Markle United States Attorney:
Here is Paublo Escobar Gaviria (a questionable source, but with little reason to lie) saying Bush used to deal with drug importers, but had since become tough.

". . . Bush is a traitor who used to deal with "us" but now he is tough.

www.wethepeople.la...
In a subsequent page of the same document

According to Rudd, Escobar stated that the cartel then off-loaded the guns, put coc aine aboard the planes and the coc aine was taken to United States military base(s)

Rudd has stated that while Escobar did not say the CIA was involved in the exchange of guns for coc aine, that was the tenor of the conversation.

www.wethepeople.la...

This is from the murder case of Barry Seal and his involvment with CIA and oddly enough associates Al Gore with the sentencing phase of the trial.
Samuel S. Dalton Attorney in his affidavit

. . . uncovered what he suspected was a plot by CIA, Barry Seal and the Contras of the ownership of a surplus Navy Minesweeper called the "Stark" later changed to "Condor" based off the coast of California;

www.wethepeople.la...

"For the better part of a decade, a San Francisco Bay Area drug ring sold tons of coc aine to the Crips and Bloods street gangs of Los Angeles and funneled millions in drug profits to a Latin American guerrilla army run by the US Central Intelligence Agency." So begins the controversial three part series, published last August, by Gary Webb in the San Jose Mercury News.

www.pbs.org...
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