Its happend before, so why not now?

Originally posted by Essan
reply to post by FreeSpeaker

 

I'm not sure anyone has ever denied the possibiity of similar tests being undertaken today?

Similar dispersion tests have been conducted over the years, the Crystal Mist experiment for example.

Dispersion calculations for CBWs seems to be done mostly by computer simulation now - and is verified against older data. See:

www.nrlmry.navy.mil...

Originally posted by network dude
reply to post by FreeSpeaker

 

And since there is ample scientific evidence that contrails exist, and very little to no evidence that chemtrails exist, it's the only logical conclusion that could be had.

Very little to no evidence that chemtrails exist? Cloud seeding alone proves chemtrails exist. I have also shown two cases, LAC & Dew, where the government did spray chemtrails into the atmosphere. The projects were and still are classified and the only reasons we know the names are becuase of a investigation into health effects related to those operations.

Chemtrails do and have existed. The question is are they still being used and what for?

Originally posted by Uncinus

Originally posted by Essan
reply to post by FreeSpeaker

 

I'm not sure anyone has ever denied the possibiity of similar tests being undertaken today?

Similar dispersion tests have been conducted over the years, the Crystal Mist experiment for example.

Dispersion calculations for CBWs seems to be done mostly by computer simulation now - and is verified against older data. See:

www.nrlmry.navy.mil...

If you can find video of this experiment in action I, and I assume others, would be most grateful. What I want to see is what the military's dispersion patern looks like.

reply to post by FreeSpeaker


What do you mean by the military's dispersal pattern? The pattern they fly the planes in?

I think the Crystal Mist experiment basically dumped a load of microspheres in more or less one place.

Here's another more recent test (1991), with some sensationalistic coverage.

www.deseretnews.com...

ARMY TO SPRAY TOXIC CHEMICAL INTO OPEN AIR IN DUGWAY TESTS

Triethyl phosphate, a chemical that kills laboratory rats when breathed during experiments, will be explosively sprayed into the open air at Dugway Proving Ground in tests starting next month, the Army says.

The Army contends in an official finding that the material is not classified as hazardous. But its own reports say it can be toxic in high concentrations.An environmental activist says he is concerned about the triethyl phosphate and that Dugway isn't giving enough time for public comments on the plans.

[...]

Liquid material simulating toxic chemicals will be tested two ways: hoisted on a tower, and suspended from a large helium-filled balloon. In either case, containers of simulants are to be blown up by plastic explosives.

Again - not like a contrail.

Originally posted by Uncinus
reply to post by FreeSpeaker

 

What do you mean by the military's dispersal pattern? The pattern they fly the planes in?

I think the Crystal Mist experiment basically dumped a load of microspheres in more or less one place.

How do they disperse it. One massive dump? Out of vents? What does the spread pattern look like? Does the dispersion look like and behave like a contrail in other words?

And an even more more recent (October 2000) test, the Salt Lake Valley VTMX tests:

www.energystorm.us...

Six [Perfluorocarbon Tracers] experiments were conducted in Salt Lake City during October 2000 as part of the VTMX field campaign. Four tracers were released at different sites to obtain information on dispersion during stable conditions within down-valley flow, canyon outflow, and interacting circulations in the downtown area.

So again, similar to the old tests. And not like contrails.

Not secret either.

Originally posted by HenryPatrick
The chemtrail debunkers should be completely and totally ignored. They only give science about contrails, which are not the same thing. That is like me trying to start a conversation about baseball, and a bunch of people chime in with football stats while pretending that what they are saying has anything to do at all with the argument at hand. For the simple reason they are arguing about something totally different than chemtrails, the same-old debunkers should be ignored time and time again. Their presence should simply not even be acknowleged, like a lowly gnat.

I used to be on the fence,when it came to chemtrails. I KNOW that the governments have led experiments on its citizens. One day,I asked myself the real question. WHY. I sat down and really thought about it. I came to the conclusion,their isnt ENOUGH aircraft in the world,to change what MAN has been dumping into our atmosphere for the last 100 years. Pollution. Thats the chemicals that we are breathing. Thats the real reason . Thats whats being sprayed on us in LARGE amounts,so obvious,that it makes the airplane-chemtrail question less important.If ALL those people who are concerned with chemtrails,take all their combined energy,and DO something about the ridiculous amounts of pollution that we as the human race,are putting into the skys,you might have blue skys once again.For me these are chemtrails................................anyone want to disagree?

Originally posted by FreeSpeaker

Originally posted by Uncinus
reply to post by FreeSpeaker

 

What do you mean by the military's dispersal pattern? The pattern they fly the planes in?

I think the Crystal Mist experiment basically dumped a load of microspheres in more or less one place.

How do they disperse it. One massive dump? Out of vents? What does the spread pattern look like? Does the dispersion look like and behave like a contrail in other words?

The crystal mist experiments were to simulate what happened to toxic materials after a warhead intercept, so I'd image they were dropped all at once. They were dropped "from a below-wing hopper on a Lear jet". There's some detail here:

www.dtic.mil...

Originally posted by Uncinus
And an even more more recent (October 2000) test, the Salt Lake Valley VTMX tests:

www.energystorm.us...

Six [Perfluorocarbon Tracers] experiments were conducted in Salt Lake City during October 2000 as part of the VTMX field campaign. Four tracers were released at different sites to obtain information on dispersion during stable conditions within down-valley flow, canyon outflow, and interacting circulations in the downtown area.

So again, similar to the old tests. And not like contrails.

Not secret either.

These test seem to be ground based and are therefore not at all like LAC and Dew II. This PLANE is what was used to disperse chemtrails for LAC.

Originally posted by FreeSpeaker
These test seem to be ground based and are therefore not at all like LAC and Dew II. This PLANE is what was used to disperse chemtrails for LAC.

I can't find what altitude though. Or any indication of what the trail looked like. (probably did not look like a contrail - which has a gap between the engine and the trail)

reply to post by Uncinus


All I could find was "The U.S. Air Force loaned the Army a C-119, "Flying Boxcar", and it was used to disperse zinc cadmium sulfide by the ton in the atmosphere over the United States". How high do you have to be before you enter the atmosphere? That I guess would be our answer. I also cannot find any video of the army carrying out any such activity.

reply to post by FreeSpeaker

I'm sitting in the atmosphere I think.
At least the last time I inhaled I was.

reply to post by HenryPatrick

That is like me trying to start a conversation about baseball, and a bunch of people chime in with football stats while pretending that what they are saying has anything to do at all with the argument at hand.

This is a great example of why chem-trailers aren't taken seriously.

You're at a baseball game and trying to convince people they're watching football.

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by FreeSpeaker

 

I'm sitting in the atmosphere I think.
At least the last time I inhaled I was.

Actually to be specific you are sitting in the troposphere.

Judging by this info...

Specific testsThe December 2, 1957 test was incomplete due to a mass of cold air coming down from Canada. It carried the particles from their drop point and then took a turn northeast, taking most of the particles into Canada with it. Military operators considered the test a partial success because some of the particles were detected 1,200 miles away, at a station in New York state. A February 1958 test at Dugway Proving Ground ended similarly. Another Canadian air mass swept through and carried the particles into the Gulf of Mexico. Two other tests, one along a path from Toledo, Ohio to Abilene, Texas, and another from Detroit, to Springfield, Illinois, to Goodland, Kansas, showed that agents dispersed through this aerial method could achieve widespread coverage when particles were detected on both sides of the flight paths.

Source

I would think they were quite high up for the chemtrail to disperse over 1,200 miles.

reply to post by FreeSpeaker

The troposphere is a component of the atmosphere as a whole. The atmosphere begins at Earth's surface.

I would think they were quite high up for the chemtrail to disperse over 1,200 miles.

Why? All it takes is wind. Dust from the Sahara Desert gets carried a lot farther than 1,200 miles.
earthobservatory.nasa.gov...

Originally posted by FreeSpeaker
Cloud seeding alone proves chemtrails exist.

So does crop dusting.

Neither are what people normally mean by chemtrails.

Please state where your goalposts are before building a straw man.

Originally posted by FreeSpeaker
Does the dispersion look like and behave like a contrail in other words?

Unlikely. It would need to result in the formation of deadly dihydrogen monoxide crystals in order for that to happen.

Originally posted by Kandinsky
reply to post by HenryPatrick

 

That is like me trying to start a conversation about baseball, and a bunch of people chime in with football stats while pretending that what they are saying has anything to do at all with the argument at hand.

This is a great example of why chem-trailers aren't taken seriously.

You're at a baseball game and trying to convince people they're watching football.

And then some of those people are professional baseball players, or lifelong baseball enthusiasts . And then he would pulling up evidence there was a football game there 50 years ago, as evidence that the baseball league is just actually presently playing football, but that everyone there is just too blind and stupid to know. But only if they would just watch more youtube videos of football games, they would get the truth

reply to post by Phage


Any guess as to how high that dust reaches before it is able to be spread around the world? I know dust storms in Iraq can reach up to 15,000 feet high. Guess how much higher it can get in a region with stronger winds.