Canadian group organizes flotilla to Gaza.

reply to post by sdcigarpig

But both sides have to give alittle to get peace in the region, which as long as the Isrealies feel threatened, they will not budge and as long as the harsh conditions the Palenstians live under, will not budge.

You are correct but one side does not want peace..
It doesn't suit their agenda of taking MORE land..

People need to face facts..
Israel needs to make it's intentions clear through words rather than actions..

reply to post by backinblack

But it is not just one sides fault, and not all of the blame can be placed on the Israelies. The Palenstians are just as guilty for the violence in the region, as well as, all of those who would supply them with weapons to continue the fighting and war fare. Think about it, if they did not have the military equipment or took actions against the Israelies, do you not think that the world would have not come down on Israel and demanded peace, for them doing the very same thing that others have done? After all do they really need rockets or any sort of military hardware? Everytime they start shooting the response has always been the same, perhaps laying down of arms and refusing to fight would give their side the credability it needs to sway public opinion to gather support. As long as they continue to fire rockets, and use force against the Israelies, then they are as guilty of continuing on the hostilities as the Israelies are. Several years ago, there was a group, though they were on the fringe but they were growing in numbers of Israelies who were tired of the endless conflict and warfare between Israel and Palinstine. They were trying to promote peace between both countries. One rocket attack and that killed what support the Palinstinans had in Isreal from this group. So it is a fair statement to state that BOTH SIDES have to take a step back before they can come to a peaceful agreement and start being good neighbors. It also means that the world also needs to step back from both sides, both from Israel and Palestine at the same time. Once the support is gone, then and only then can both sides come together and work out their differences. As long as Israel has support and Palinstine gets military hardware there will be no peace for generations to come.

reply to post by sdcigarpig


While Israel continue the settlements then ALL Palestinians have a right to fight back..
Fact is Israel is invading them..
Have they not the right to repel an invasion??

People seem to ignore this FACT..

Originally posted by Skellon
reply to post by Corruption Exposed

 

I believe it is a great way to risk the lives of others from the comfort of our arm chairs.

Wrong, it is a great way to get much needed help to a population who are in desperate need of it, but are denied it under false pretenses and acts of segregation among other things.

From the comfort of my arm-chair to the deck of that boat, it is a great thing either way. Who are you to decide who gets help and how they receive it?

I find it weird that people still fail to realize that this blockade is just plain illegal and that it should not matter which entry the aid is to be delivered at. If the groups delivering the supplies would rather do it by boat which would be the most effective way, they should be aloud to do so. The aid would take much longer to deliver through the other two available options.

Most of the discussion is moot because people are discussing under the pretenses that Israel has the right to stop these aid flotillas and suggesting other options to deliver aid.

And to those who suggested or indirectly implied that any flotilla members who get hurt had it coming to them, get a grip! That is an absurd way to look at an already messed up situation.

This immature comment only deserves a reply of the same nature.

Awwwwwe the poor Israeli's, how dare they be inconvenienced by bad PR.How can they expect committing piracy in international waters and execute innocent people and not expect bad PR.

Awww the poor activists, how dare they be stopped upon reaching a naval blockade enforced by an armed navy when they are asked to dock at ports (in Israel and Egypt, to their choice) and still refuse.
"Innocent" people will keep getting "executed" as long as they choose this idiotic way of "transferring aid" into Gaza, which is clearly not something that is in their prime priority.

As for the whole flotilla trend you mention, I believe it is a great way to get tons of aid from many different groups of people.

Strange. The UN is delivering aid into Gaza from Israel for years now, and now they can do it from Egypt as-well. Care to do alittle comparison of how many tons of aid reached Gaza through UN's way of transferring it from Israel, between how many tons of aid reached Gaza from stupid flotillas? Easy comparison.

Israel has managed to convince most the world that they possess the right to do what they want when they want, yet at the same time they commit acts they claim to be trying to prevent. So they expect to have the world helplessly watch aid trickle in from these other available crossings that are governed with so much red tape and bureaucracy that the amount of aid from these flotillas is much more than any amount of aid that could come in at these other crossings.

Really? A small ship carrying pitiful excuse for aid is "much more" than a fleet of trucks delivering aid by the tonnes?
I think you got it wrong here buddy.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with people setting up these flotillas, if Israel doesn't like it they can go suck a rotten egg.

There you go again being immature.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with IDF navy stopping unrecognized rouge ships coming at Gaza wanting to break it's blockade, if the activists don't like it they can keep going back and forth forever for all we care.


Keep in mind that the whole attitude of "if Israel don't like it they can go X..." is wrong because there is nothing you can do to stop the enforcing of the blockade, illegal or not, until a sane government exists in Gaza. Until that happens, it is you who can go "suck a rotten egg" as you put it, and whine about it as much as you'd like.

reply to post by backinblack

Yet you miss the point to my posting. It does not matter if they are being invaded or not. What people look at is the military hardware that they are using to repel what they would view as the invasion. And to make matters worse, there are times that they actually start the conflicts. This is not the actions of an oppressed people nor is it one of refugees, rather it is the desperate attempts to gather support for their cause, using terror and fear as a weapon. As long as they continue to use military hardware to attack, as long as they keep the violence up, they will never have the support that they truely need to get anywhere and will keep the cycle of violence going.
Put it into a different context: If they did nothing, and used peaceful means to resist, no violence, no military hardware, nothing, then there would be an outcry from the world and Isreael would have to find a peaceful solution.
The even solution of the pre 1967 boarders is not only a slap in the face, but offers no real viable solution for either side, cause eventually one side or the other would want more. And further more, instead of taking any peace agreement the Palenstinens reject just about any and every peace agreement presented to them. They are the victims of their own making.

reply to post by IsraeliGuy

This immature comment only deserves a reply of the same nature.

Since when were factual observations immature content. Don't blame me if you don't like the way I deliver the real deal. Do you expect me to sugar coat it for your obvious sensitivity to this issue?

Awww the poor activists, how dare they be stopped upon reaching a naval blockade enforced by an armed navy when they are asked to dock at ports (in Israel and Egypt, to their choice) and still refuse. "Innocent" people will keep getting "executed" as long as they choose this idiotic way of "transferring aid" into Gaza, which is clearly not something that is in their prime priority.

Once again, who are you to decide who gets aid and how it is delivered? Also, who put you in the position to decide whether or not a method of delivering aid is "idiotic"? So once again you indirectly imply that these "innocent" people deserve to get "executed" due to their "idiotic" method of delivering aid just because Israel does not condone their method, yet most of the world does. May I also ask what makes you properly informed on their prime priority. Their prime priority is clearly to deliver aid. To assume that they are probably wanting to smuggle arms and or similar materials or any other type of foolishness is evidence that you are brainwashed by the Zionist propaganda machine and that there is really no point discussing this matter with you, yet I will continue.

Strange. The UN is delivering aid into Gaza from Israel for years now, and now they can do it from Egypt as-well. Care to do alittle comparison of how many tons of aid reached Gaza through UN's way of transferring it from Israel, between how many tons of aid reached Gaza from stupid flotillas? Easy comparison.

First of all, are you even aware of the UN aid that has been delivered into Gaza over the last few years? A member left a link of allowed materials earlier in this thread. I suggest you view their link. UN aid to Gaza must first be analyzed by Israel which means most of it does not make it through. We're talking building supplies to rebuild much needed infrastructure such as plumbing, electricity grid, schools and hospitals...etc. Regrettably I do not know exactly how much aid has been allowed through these crossings, but the reports have been very evident that the amount of aid is minimal. A flotilla of 10 well equipped boats would easily be capable of delivering more aid than a few truck loads crossing the other available land crossings via Israeli inspection. Your request to compare the amount of aid from the Egyptian and Israeli crossing versus those of flotillas is plain stupid. There has been virtually no aid allowed into Gaza via these flotillas due to Israeli interference. I can't believe you even asked me that question. I am beginning to lose my patience with your lack of logical thought.

There you go again being immature. There is absolutely nothing wrong with IDF navy stopping unrecognized rouge ships coming at Gaza wanting to break it's blockade, if the activists don't like it they can keep going back and forth forever for all we care. Keep in mind that the whole attitude of "if Israel don't like it they can go X..." is wrong because there is nothing you can do to stop the enforcing of the blockade, illegal or not, until a sane government exists in Gaza. Until that happens, it is you who can go "suck a rotten egg" as you put it, and whine about it as much as you'd like.

That's the second time you have called me immature in one post, you're on a roll buddy

As for you defending IDF navy ships committing piracy in international waters, I will let that one be and let you wallow in your own embarrassment

I will admit that the government in Gaza is not the top model of a perfect government, but they were elected by their people. I would not call the Israeli government's actions "sane" either. The Israel government has been the root cause of most conflict in that region for well over 60 years now. So let's not get off topic and start pointing fingers at which government has more skeletons in their closet, if we were to play that game Israel would surely come out the loser.

BTW I was telling the government of Israel to go suck and egg, and for you to counter that and tell me to go suck an egg, tells me you are a member or supporter of the Israeli government which leaves me no choice but to question your moral values and many other things. Good day sir

Originally posted by Truth4Thought
I find it weird that people still fail to realize that this blockade is just plain illegal and that it should not matter which entry the aid is to be delivered at. If the groups delivering the supplies would rather do it by boat which would be the most effective way, they should be aloud to do so. The aid would take much longer to deliver through the other two available options.

Most of the discussion is moot because people are discussing under the pretenses that Israel has the right to stop these aid flotillas and suggesting other options to deliver aid.

And to those who suggested or indirectly implied that any flotilla members who get hurt had it coming to them, get a grip! That is an absurd way to look at an already messed up situation.

I couldn't agree more. People on here are arguing about which other way they can get aid to the Gazans because of the blockade. THE BLOCKADE IS ILLEGAL! Get used to it Israel, people are going to get help to the Palestinians no matter what roadblocks you create. Or you can just do like you did last time and kill a bunch of unarmed activists. I am sure that would go over well. Canadians too, everyone loves Canadians.

Hey Israeli guy, what's your beef with the people of Gaza getting help? Your posts create a tone of discontent against the Palestinians and how much the supplies could help them rebuild and regain some composure. They deserve humane living conditions too right? Well, I got news for you guy, the aid isn't making its way through the other crossings. So to be against these flotillas would almost seem as you are also against Gaza regaining some of their dignity and becoming less dependent on handouts from other countries, kind of like Israel takes hand outs from the Americans. Not all countries want to be a welfare state.

Originally posted by sdcigarpig
reply to post by backinblack

 

Yet you miss the point to my posting. It does not matter if they are being invaded or not. What people look at is the military hardware that they are using to repel what they would view as the invasion. And to make matters worse, there are times that they actually start the conflicts. This is not the actions of an oppressed people nor is it one of refugees, rather it is the desperate attempts to gather support for their cause, using terror and fear as a weapon. As long as they continue to use military hardware to attack, as long as they keep the violence up, they will never have the support that they truely need to get anywhere and will keep the cycle of violence going.
Put it into a different context: If they did nothing, and used peaceful means to resist, no violence, no military hardware, nothing, then there would be an outcry from the world and Isreael would have to find a peaceful solution.
The even solution of the pre 1967 boarders is not only a slap in the face, but offers no real viable solution for either side, cause eventually one side or the other would want more. And further more, instead of taking any peace agreement the Palenstinens reject just about any and every peace agreement presented to them. They are the victims of their own making.

Funny, all you pro Israel people are the same..
You ALL want the Palestinians to stop firing their useless little missiles but NONE of you demand Israel stop their settlements/land grab...

Surely the "CRIME" needs to stop before the "Retaliation"..

reply to post by backinblack

Funny how you are under the belief that I am pro either group over there. I blame both groups for the problems and ultimately believe that both sides need to have all support cut off and force them to compromise. That means that all support for the Israelies and the Palenstinans need to halt and stop. No more aid to either side, no more supplies, no nothing, then and only then will peace comes around.
It is when they are forced to deal with the other, that they will have to come to a compromise. However, the question is who will control Jersulaem? Both sides lay claim to it, three major religions have ties to it. If anything if the Palenstianians were to give up claims to it, then Israel may turn around and give up claims on other lands to where both sides start to compromise.

Originally posted by sdcigarpig
reply to post by backinblack

 

Funny how you are under the belief that I am pro either group over there. I blame both groups for the problems and ultimately believe that both sides need to have all support cut off and force them to compromise. That means that all support for the Israelies and the Palenstinans need to halt and stop. No more aid to either side, no more supplies, no nothing, then and only then will peace comes around.
It is when they are forced to deal with the other, that they will have to come to a compromise. However, the question is who will control Jersulaem? Both sides lay claim to it, three major religions have ties to it. If anything if the Palenstianians were to give up claims to it, then Israel may turn around and give up claims on other lands to where both sides start to compromise.

Again, how is that fair??
Israel has a thriving economy and NO external pressures on their industry or trade..
Palestine is STILL a prison with severe limitations and blockades in place by Israel..

Yet you suggest stopping ALL aid and assistance to both??
Israel wouldn't even feel it but Palestine would die, or maybe that's your aim??

reply to post by backinblack

But Isreal would feel the pressure. They can not afford to lose any aid, nor can they afford to be on their own. Palenstines could not afford to be without aid, so both would quickly find that the cost of peace is far greater than a continued war where there are no winners and only losers. So what is far worse? Having things continue on and where there is no peace and conditions keep going on as they are, or isolating both and forcing them to come to terms where just maybe peace will start? I would think that the latter is what is more desired, especially if both countries are isolated and can not afford for any conflicts, as it would waste a finite supply of resources that they both need. It is the only real way at this time frame to ensure that they start and have peace, rather than keep going as it is right now.
All this new flotilla of aid is going to do, is make matters far worse and only aggrivate the problems over there. As it did before, and from what was seen, the people on the flotilla were not there for peace, but to meet in a conflict.

reply to post by sdcigarpig


Israel could simply stop the Illegal settlements..

Why do you guys REFUSE to accept that is about the MAJOR hurdle to peace and is 100% Israel's fault??

Originally posted by backinblack
reply to post by sdcigarpig

 

Israel could simply stop the Illegal settlements..

Why do you guys REFUSE to accept that is about the MAJOR hurdle to peace and is 100% Israel's fault??

Because it is not just 100% of Israel's fault. The history of Israel and the people who have lived there is one mired in violence, and not just on their part. Nor should they just give up their position cause others feel it is wrong. It is both sides fault, and until people admit that it is not just one sides but the other, then it is useless. The flotilla, all it is going to do is make a situation worse, and go badly, for all on both sides. If Israel was fully heartless, then no aid would go into Gaza what so ever, and there would be no news, no nothing, yet funny, Gaza is far from being cut off from the world. Aid does go in there to the tune of several Billions every year, course what is not often reported, is that Hamas tends to divert that aid for more military uses, than to help the very people it wants to free. Lets think about that, aid is being sent in, going through and yet the military and a terrorist organization is diverting that aid from the people it is intended to help, so we should support a terrorist organization by giving them more supplies?
Hamas is a terrorist organization, and in control over the Palestinians, so that would ultimately give Israel and any country that is against Terrorist, justification to block and prevent materials what could be used to create weapons from flowing in. So there you have it, support the flotilla and you are supporting a terrorist network and organization. Do you support terrorist? I don't so I guess Israel is not such the bad guy at all.

Another pathetic provocation.

Pretty demented that you acknowledge that this will be "scrutinized" regardless of Israels response. I suppose there is no winning for them. They have security concerns, and the international community instigated by these flotilla retards dont respect the reality that the "Gaza" destined ships are going into an area ruled by a government which is considered by all civilized nations as a terrorist organization.

So how can anyone in their right mind blame israel for wanting to inspect anything shipped into the Gaza strip? Its simply not fair. Hamas doesnt acknwledge Israel right to exist; its in their charter. They repeatedly launch attacks on Israel.

What the # is wrong with the reasoning capabilities of you people? This nothing but complete insidiousness. Israel has a right to exist! And if you have concerns for Gazas refugees (where or where are the flotillas going into Sudan?? Millions more are sufferring there - real suffering - and they get a modicum of the attention and refugee aid that palestinians get) OK. Send the aid to the port of Ashdod. Where it can be inspected. And ONLY after it has been inspected for weapons and explosives will it be forwarded in trucks to the Gaza strip.

reply to post by dontreally

So how can anyone in their right mind blame israel for wanting to inspect anything shipped into the Gaza strip? Its simply not fair. Hamas doesnt acknwledge Israel right to exist; its in their charter. They repeatedly launch attacks on Israel.

You're just an outright hypocrite..

Israel REFUSES to recognize Palestine and are even pushing the World not to accept them in September.
YOU preach they have NEVER existed..

Israel attacks Palestine EVERY SINGLE DAY..
It's either military action or land grabs..
While ONE Israeli has a tool in his hand building a NEW SETTLEMENT, that is an ATTACK on Palestine..
An invasion is considered an attack and that's exactly what Israel is doing..

So tell me, when is Palestine NOT under attack???
Try denying the facts, not your usual rants....

reply to post by sdcigarpig


Personally I think if you polled the PEOPLE rather than accept what our corrupt leaders tell us, you'd have an entirely different list of who are considered Terrorists...

You only have to look at the definition of Terrorist and some names spring to mind..

Originally posted by Corruption Exposed
Since when were factual observations immature content. Don't blame me if you don't like the way I deliver the real deal. Do you expect me to sugar coat it for your obvious sensitivity to this issue?

MY obvious sensitivity? Lol, need I remind you that I could live on with the status quo for ever? It is not me who is sending silly ships only to have them forced to turn around and end up in either casualties or a major waste of fuel and time wasted for nothing but pitiful attempts at making a bad PR.

Once again, who are you to decide who gets aid and how it is delivered?

"I" am not one to decide, it's what my government does.

Also, who put you in the position to decide whether or not a method of delivering aid is "idiotic"?

I'm really not the one deciding that. The fact remains that none of the aid got through in any of these idiotic flotilla adventures that only ended up in either a casualties disaster or a financial one. Yes it is idiotic, no I am not the one that decides it is, it is common sense that does it.

So once again you indirectly imply that these "innocent" people deserve to get "executed" due to their "idiotic" method of delivering aid just because Israel does not condone their method, yet most of the world does.

Most of the world does? So why does most of the world choose the method of delivering aid through Israeli inspections? You can't honestly claim that Israel has more say in this than most of the world, do you?

May I also ask what makes you properly informed on their prime priority.

The fact that they bring photographing equipment that equals or passes the worth of the so called aid?
The fact that they already know the IDF won't let them pass through yet they still insist on choosing this route?
The fact that people like you, eg; supporters of this idiocy, cheer and LOL at the fact that Israel is going to get bad PR over this more than the fact that some people will get their aid?

Their prime priority is clearly to deliver aid.

No, if it was, they would choose to dock at Ashdod, and if the Israeli inspections are too much for them they could easily dock at Egypt and have everything they want through. Why don't they do that? Oh yeah, actually delivering aid is not one of their priorities. Their top priority is to try to make bad PR to Israel.

To assume that they are probably wanting to smuggle arms and or similar materials or any other type of foolishness is evidence that you are brainwashed by the Zionist propaganda machine and that there is really no point discussing this matter with you, yet I will continue.

Not even once have I claimed that. These pansy activists probably don't have enough balls to carry around one pound of explosives on their ships.. As I said, their goal is to try and catch Israeli soldiers "violently" forcing them back.

First of all, are you even aware of the UN aid that has been delivered into Gaza over the last few years?
A member left a link of allowed materials earlier in this thread. I suggest you view their link.

Oh yes I am perfectly aware of that. Maybe this will help you understand thing in a better way:
Hamas steals UN aid: UN source
Hamas steals UN aid: Washington post
I guess it's pretty hard to comprehend that after you allow some materials in, in order to build hospitals as you say, only to have it stolen by Hamas to serve their malicious needs, you are not only forced to stop transferring the specific materials by the threatened country (Israel in this case), you also refuse do to so yourself, just like the UN did.

UN aid to Gaza must first be analyzed by Israel which means most of it does not make it through.

Stated above just why.

We're talking building supplies to rebuild much needed infrastructure such as plumbing, electricity grid, schools and hospitals...etc.

See above.

Regrettably I do not know exactly how much aid has been allowed through these crossings, but the reports have been very evident that the amount of aid is minimal.

"Minimal" aid into Gaza: Wikipedia
If this is what you call minimal - Hahahahahaha!
And this is just between 2008 and 2009. Heh.

A flotilla of 10 well equipped boats would easily be capable of delivering more aid than a few truck loads crossing the other available land crossings via Israeli inspection.

Sure they would, if they only docked at Ashdod or Egypt. But no, they still insist on trying to break a well armed naval blockade only to prove a point. Pitiful.

Your request to compare the amount of aid from the Egyptian and Israeli crossing versus those of flotillas is plain stupid. There has been virtually no aid allowed into Gaza via these flotillas due to Israeli interference. I can't believe you even asked me that question. I am beginning to lose my patience with your lack of logical thought.

How is my logical thinking flawed? Just because you are ashamed to prove yourself wrong?
Even if the amount of aid that reached Gaza from Israel and Egypt would be 1 or 2 tonnes, it would still be 100% more than the aid reached via flotillas. Why? because 0 kg has passed via flotillas.

This is the simplest logic ever and you are insisting it's flawed.
Oh well don't lose your patience just yet.

That's the second time you have called me immature in one post, you're on a roll buddy

You're going to have to forgive me for calling a boy by it's name.

As for you defending IDF navy ships committing piracy in international waters, I will let that one be and let you wallow in your own embarrassment

What embarrassment? I'd be damn embarrassed if Israel let even one of those ships get through it's blockade. As long as we keep sending these pansy hippies home from wherever they came from, I'm perfectly good.
It's you who is pissed about this situation buddy, not me.

I will admit that the government in Gaza is not the top model of a perfect government, but they were elected by their people.

Elected by the people.. what a joke. You try saying that when there's a guard with an armed AK47 standing in your voting booth, hinting you to vote Hamas or die.

I would not call the Israeli government's actions "sane" either. The Israel government has been the root cause of most conflict in that region for well over 60 years now.

That's very rich coming from you.

So let's not get off topic and start pointing fingers at which government has more skeletons in their closet, if we were to play that game Israel would surely come out the loser.

The only one going off topic here is you. If there was a sane government in Gaza, they'd be independent. And if they will be independent, nobody in Israel will tell them who or what can dock at their ports. Until that happens get ready for lots and lots of whining about Israeli ships forcing "aid" flotillas backwards.

BTW I was telling the government of Israel to go suck and egg, and for you to counter that and tell me to go suck an egg, tells me you are a member or supporter of the Israeli government which leaves me no choice but to question your moral values and many other things. Good day sir

...

I was saying it is illogical to say that to the government that stops the ships you so eagerly want in Israel. Hello? We are in power here remember? It's you who wants something to change?
The right thing to say, if anyone even wanted to use the go suck an egg thingy, was "if the activists don't like being forced back all the time they can go suck a rotten egg".

I'm simply explaining you the flawed logic behind your immature bashing. Don't mistake me for someone who would ever say this stupid line to anyone.

Also, just for the sake of comparing both methods of delivering aid, here is a partial list of the aid that got through using the NORMAL method:
Link
Now if you could provide a link that shows that these pathetic "peace flotillas" have brought even quarter of this amount into Gaza I will swallow my own words and admit my logic is incredibly flawed.
I doubt you'd be able to do that tho, since flotillas haven't even managed to reach Gaza, let alone have any aid in there.

reply to post by dontreally


And only after the IDF confiscates cattle, sheep, chickens, building materials, newspaper, paper, sheets for huts, a variety of food product and the bare essential items required to make Gaza independent and self sufficient
If you missed the linky here it is again: gisha.org...
That is a partial list of the items banned in Gaza by Israel: Did you notice that toys were banned? Oh no, children with toys, they might throw them at us- those damn terrorists.

The blockade is a joke, however the fact that it intrudes on Palestinian sovereignty is not my major concern. If the blockade was reasonable and they only confiscated weapons and ammunition then I would not oppose it. However from the list of banned items we can clearly see it is designed to be de-moralizing. If Gazans cannot have access to the livestock and items required to make them self sufficient then there is little use for aid anyway.