just to correct someone earlier.

and in NO way to defend hitler in posting this!!!

hitler outlawed masons (aswell as gypsys and others) because they were a direct threat to him. why were they a threat?? because they had occult knowledge and were seeped in the occult..the very means of which hitler used to gain and maintain his power. nazis scum were full of the occult from believing in the ayran rase to the swatsika.

funny enough i watched something the other day that totally blew my mind.it was about the olympics. did you know the origins of the olympic symbol?? or maybe the whole pomp and torch carrying mass spectical?? that wasnt in ancient greece. the modern day olympic humanist specticle was a brain child of the nazi's, aswell as the symbol with the circles...nazi arceologists claimed they had found it at a dig and that it was the ancient symbol of the greek games when in actual fact it is just an OCCULTIC sign of NAZI origin.

Actually Hitler didn't outlaw Freemasonry - he closed the International "non-standard " lodges because they were overun with Jewery.
In fact the Grand Prussian Lodge of Freemasonry was pretty much the only organisation that was allowed to continue in its original format, even groups like the Boy Scouts were closed.
The majority of claims about Freemasons being persecuted in Nazi Germany (and pretty much everywhere else) are bunk.
It is a ploy used by senior members in the cult to create the illusion that they are the ones who are under attack, rather than individuals that they target for their cowardly harrassment.
Its all explained in the 30th Degree "Knight Kadosh", in order to create unity you must have opposition (according to Masonic religious philosophy), even if you have to create it.

Originally posted by MrNECROS
in order to create unity you must have opposition (according to Masonic religious philosophy), even if you have to create it.

So by opposing Masonic religious philosophy you are creating Masonic unity. Great marketing plan. It worked well in my case. After reading page upon page of anti-Mason literature I decided to read the pro-Mason literature which convinced me that the Masons are a wonderful organization. Thanks dude.
.

This is their philosophy and religion - not mine.
I don't bother to oppose it - I mearly publish it so that people can see the flaws in it themselves - to be blunt it is full of holes, thats why it is kept secret, it can't stand up to scrutiny.

The strange thing is that in years to come when members have been burnt out by this cult, they are so overwraught by their own stupidity in not seeing what is painfully obvious that it remains their dirty little secret forever.

MrNECROS,

I went to you web site, it looks to me like a Freemason bashing place.

Ok, Mr. Necros hasn't got two brain cells to rub together, so he is harmless... his "theories" don't stand up to any scrutiny.

Masonry is about a man making himself a better man in service to g-d, his country, his family and himself. Folks that oppose masonry are the same as those that oppose Christians... they hate it when ANYONE makes more of themselves.

But the simple truth is that sites like FW actually bring men INTO the fraternity. The nonsense they post is patently ridiculous to anyone with an IQ larger than their shoe size, and as noted above, reading it causes good men to look for more information, which they find, and then join. I know over a score of men (personally KNOW them) that have joined as a result of the antics of those like MrNecros (mr death??) and CMB, Sublime St. John the Reformer et al and that site. That does not even include those that have joined as a reult of them that I do NOT personally know.

I had a hand in shutting down that site once, by revealing the name of the host and their physical and digital addresses. Cockroaches do not like the light of day. I also had a hand in shutting down then "chat" sites associated with that place of darkness and evil, because one poster, who postes under about 40 sockpuppet names, was violating the law regarding use of my image and name... in violation of the TOS of the hosts.

No, masonic critics, with rare exceptions, have no honor, no integrity, and nothing to say that is not a flat out lie.

As Voltaire said, regarding prayer: Please god, make my enemies look foolish, and HE granted that prayer. In the case of masonic critics, that is true.... in spades.

Masons really owe a debt of gratitude to fools like MrNecrs, St.John the Sublime Reformer, CMB, Freemasonrywatch33 et al... they are helping masonry grow!

Originally posted by MrNECROS
Actually Hitler didn't outlaw Freemasonry - he closed the International "non-standard " lodges because they were overun with Jewery.
In fact the Grand Prussian Lodge of Freemasonry was pretty much the only organisation that was allowed to continue in its original format, even groups like the Boy Scouts were closed.

Wrong again (but I don't think anyone's surprised).

In 1934, Hermann Goering issued a decree that outlawed all Masonic Lodges; the decree said "There is no place in National Socialist society for subversive organizations such as Freemasonry."

Even before the Nazis' rise to power, Adolf Hitler attacked Freemasonry in "Mein Kampf", calling for its abolition because of its "decadent liberalism". SS Reichsofficer Dieter Shwarz wrote the Nazi Party handbook on Masonry called "Freemasonry Ideology", which can be read in English translations. The Nazi persecution of Freemasons is a perfect example of what happens when anti-Masonic conspiracy theorists come to power, and is why the truth of the matter is suppressed by folks such as Necros, who would have no doubt approved the Nazis' actions.

Never again, "Mr. Necros".

The enemies of freemasonry are the communists, the socialists, the Jihadists, the zealots, the nazis, the Klan and all dictators. You see, any government or group, like the RCC, for instance, that despises personal freedom, freedom of thought, freedom of religion, freedom of action, personal responsibility and all manner of freedoms despise and seek to restrict or destroy freemasonry.

I count myself fortunate in belonging to a group of men that are despised by despots the world over.

A man is as well known by the enemies he has as by the friends he keeps. Being despised especially by Al Quaeda and muslim fundamentalists makes my breast swell with pride!

The whole crux of this topic is religious dogmatism, one of the greatest evils of the world IMO. Yes, I'm starting to realise that great swathes of anti-masonic hatred comes from a large number of Christian faith followers, but maybe if I could read Arabic or some other languages, I'd come to the same conclusion about certain people of other religious persuasions.

Freemasonry has a LOT of members. I don't know for sure, but I wouldn't be in the least surprised to hear of it being one of the largest such societies on the planet. So you could to a certain extent compare it with Microsoft as far as being targeted is concerned.

I'm quite happy with what I've learned about Freemasonry. They're not religious fanatics, and amen to that. I really abhor the centuries-old strife on earth caused by religious fanaticism, and all major religions are guilty thereof.

And while I believe in free will & am against the tenets of globalisation, New World Order, etc - sometimes I fantasise about being in power myself, because although I wouldn't wish to impose a "One World Religion", I'd like to impose on all of them the tenet of "Live in peace with one another".

Originally posted by Bastet

Freemasonry has a LOT of members. I don't know for sure, but I wouldn't be in the least surprised to hear of it being one of the largest such societies on the planet.

There are roughly 6 million Masons worldwide, with the bulk being in the USA, Canada, and Great Britain, although Masonic organizations exist to some extent in almost every democratic country. The largest membership per capita in any country is (oddly enough) France. I say "oddly enough" because the French nation is predominately and overwhelmingly Roman Catholic.

On a side note, outside of the democratic nations, the Communist Party of Cuba has recently legalized Freemasonry after decades of suppression, and Cuba now has an active Grand Lodge and a Supreme Council of the 33°, both of which are gaining new members by the dozens. After half a century of Marxist atheism, the Cuban people have become hungry for spiritual and moral truth, and we trust that the re-introduction of Masonry on the island will assist in its liberalization and move toward freedom.

Fiat Lvx.

Really?
As a matter of fact I have read the Hiram key as well as about 40 other books on the KT and Masons including many by masonic historians ( Manly P Hall, Mackey). This is a subject I am rather familier with. You offer nothing more than childish responses. I am prepairing research on the subject.
I dont have a problem admitting I could be wrong on some issues but you have offered nothing to suggest I am so till then.....!

Accidental double post removed.

[edit on 8-8-2004 by Masonic Light]

Originally posted by GRENADIER[

..... the basic points being the Masonic belief that a man only has to believe in a divine "Creator" ( like it says in the Constitution) and does not need to believe in the Judeo-christian faith! I think the founding fathers were working toward a plan from back in the ages to free the minds of men from the chains of religious dogma and superstition.

And your point here is? That there's something inherently evil in no necessity to believe in the Judeo-Christian faith? Surely you can't be THAT patronisingly intolerant of other faiths?

And if the founding fathers were indeed

"working toward a plan from back in the ages to free the minds of men from the chains of religious dogma and superstition"

then what in earth was wrong with that?

Say what you mean & mean what you say, because from this angle, it looks as though you're getting somewhat tangled up in your own prejudices. As for your assertion that Freemasonry's some plot to overthrow the Catholic Church, I find it rather odd that France, a predominantly Catholic country, has the highest number of Freemasons. And I rather doubt that the Catholic Church is the US is falling by the wayside either.

What can I say?? Really.

I've been reading through all of these posts and I've encountered everything from outright ignorance and VERY poor scholarship, to reasonable, thoughtful posts. Yet, the contention that Freemasons are sinister or have some sort of clak-and-dagger agenda to pull the strings of world politics still remains.

As a person that hopes to join the masons and is looking for CLARITY when it comes to this organization, I must ay that I'm now at the point where I really don't mind if the masons ARE planning to control our political and social destinies. You know, I don't mind joining a cabal/brotherhood that seeks world domination, LOL. I think it's about time that some talented people clear the smoke for the rest of us; If the masons are indeed the heirs of the planet, then hell . . . .I might as well join them. I've worked too hard and too long and spent too much time looking for something larger than myself to sell myself short.

I'd like to rule the world and get involved in some good old sex-magic, whatever that is. Orgies at every meeting, and strawberry pie afterward. Life is grand, baby, and may the masonic mythology of the GRAND PLAN FOR THE EARTH AS BERQUEATHED TO US BY OUR OVVERLORDS OF THE PLANET ZLARVOX continue for all time.

Let me clarify
I do not believe the masons are trying to over throw the world or even the Church. I do however believe what I said before the Templars/ Masons were trying to weaken the hold over the daily lives of men by the Church.
But this was accomplished during the age of enlightinment. The Masons hold on to many rites and ideas from the past that even they can no longer interperate. But dispite the fact that the average Mason can no longer explain all of their symbology there are Masons who know their entire history and what they were up to. I believe what the Templars/Masons were doing was for the betterment of men witness the age of enlightinment and what it did for science! Imagine if this had happened in the 1300's. I recently heard that at the time of their arrest there were plans or at least rumors of plans to establish a Templar state in the south of France ( I am still checking this out) but suppose this had happened? Suppose the Richest and most well trained millitary order had set itself up a state? After crushing the sure to come invasion they could have ushered in the Rennessance 200 yrs ahead of time!I dont believe this would have been a bad thing at all!

The Templars were the first international bankers. Nearly every king was in debt to them. Phillipe of France had them destroyed for this and for the reason that he feared that they could threaten his power base.

When the Holy Land fell to the Muslims, the Templars retreated to Europe - mainly to the new state of France. Prior to that, their mission had been to guard pilgrims and to act as an army under papal approval.

Once returned to France the Order became less of a fighting force and more of a financial institution. Phillipe coveted their wealth and feared their power so he devised a way to destroy them. He placed his own Pope in power and had the KTs condemned for heresy. He then had them rounded up and disbanded the organisation.

There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that the Knights Templar were trying to subvert the power of the Church. It's ironic that those who try to sell this line are basically swallowing centuries old propaganda that was created by Phillipe so that he could destroy the Order. All of the surviving evidence points to the KTs being a Christian Order working hand in hand with the Vatican until Phillipe subverted the papacy.

There are no masons who know of the entire history of masonry and can give a totally acceptable opinion. There are Lodges of Research where we try to uncover the past and shed some light on Freemasonry's historical roots, but any discovery regarding the Knights Templar has been shrouded in speculation. No verifiable link is likely to occur either. If the Freemasons are descended from the Knights Templar, any hard evidence would have been destroyed as the KTs themselves could not let their existence be known once Phillipe had forced his pope to issue a bull against them and disbanded the Order.

As for the Masons themselves trying to weaken the hold of the Church? Masonic history has the early members of the Order as the main builders of churches and cathedrals throughout medieval Europe. One can hardly subvert a religion by building centres of worship for it.

Originally posted by LTD602
Orgies at every meeting, and strawberry pie afterward.

LTD602, I'm glad you're thinking of joining us, but I must say, someone has grievously minformed you about the quality of food (or "festive board") we get after our meetings

Which brings up an argument presented by myself and MM quite some time ago: If Freemasons control the world, how come we can't get better food? No, it's the chefs who truly control everything.

Hehe . . . agreed.

AlexKennedy at the Lodge:

AK: Uh . . for the next order of business, I move that we substitute "instigating a coup in Paraguay" with "hiring a chef."

Worshipful Master: So do you want me to move "selling a thermonuclear device to Monaco" up or down the list.

Ak: Down.

Worshipful Master: Fine.

AK: Sweet.

Excellent!

Now, I should say, at my Craft Lodge, we do have an excellent chef, Mrs. Blue, who is also known by the vast number of Lodge members as "Mom." Unfortunately, even Mrs. Blue can't always make French Onion Soup and tourtiere. Compare this to the bizzare variety I get in my red Lodge. Here is a list of meals I can remember (each number is a night):

1) Deluxe chicken wings of various flavours -- practically enless supply.

2) A few ham sandwiches.

3) Cake.

4) Steaks, baked potatoes, salad, buns, etc.

Seriously. It's a real roulette wheel there (Actually, we currently have a very wealthy benefactor who's contributing a lot of money so we can eat well).

Scottish Rite is always hot dogs. No matter what we're really having. "Hey, Alex, Let's go downstairs and have some hot dogs," they say... and then I'm suprised to see ice cream and cake. "Where are the hot dogs," say I, and they reply "These are Scottish Rite hot dogs."

Hot dogs??? HA!

Must be a Canadian thing AK. At last weeks lodge we had a bonified feast! Honey-basted-grilled-chicken, macaroni and cheese (the baked kind), sucatash(spelling?), pasta salad, dinner rolls, and lemonade. Ah, delish, how wonderful it was.

Next feast ill eat for the both of us Alex.