Can people control their feelings and thoughts?

This is basically a philosophical discussion, so I figured it's best places here, if any mods disagree feel free to move it to a more appropriate forum!

My basic premise for this thread is to get opinions on if people are responsible for the way they feel, their attractions, their dislikes, and their thoughts. People often chastise and hate people simply for their feelings. Is this right? Can you really blame someone for the way they feel, or the thoughts that pop into their head? Can you control such things? A few examples.

1. Racism:

Racism is basically believing another race is inferior, sub-human, unworthy, etc. Someone is labeled a racist, bigot, or accused of being prejudiced, all negative labels, often times simply for the way they feel. There are many reasons that people feel this way. They could have been raised in a way where they were taught such things, they could have had life experiences with members of a certain race that led them to form opinions of a whole race based on a few people. None of those things could have happened, and they simply observe other races and their view of them is influenced by that.

Regardless of why someone is the way they are, people will bash someone who thinks badly of another race. If you think black people overall are less civilized of less intelligent, some people will hate you. But how can people judge you based on your feelings? Right or wrong, you cannot control how you FEEL about something. You may educate yourself and realize that the differences in people is only skin deep, and that black people are no less intelligent or civilized than Asians or whites. You may interact with black people in a very respectful manner, and try your best to rid yourself of your feelings towards them, but you are forever biased against black people.

Do you believe this is wrong? Is a person somehow bad for having these feelings, even though they cannot control them? Or do you think they CAN control them? If so, how? Obviously those that ACT on such thoughts, and attack other races verbally or physically, or spread hateful ideas are different, but I'm talking specifically about someone who treats everyone with the greatest respect, but still just doesn't "like" another race for whatever reason. Would you judge such a person? If so, what do you think gives you that right?

2. Homophobia:

The social attitude in regards to homosexuals has come along way over the years, and society overall is fairly tolerant of them. But there are still people out there that hate, and often times harm homosexuals. Obviously there are several reasons for this. Someone could have been raised with the idea that being gay is wrong, or evil. Someone could be gay themselves, but refuses to admit it, and takes their frustration out on other gay people. Just as in my previous paragraph, can you really judge someone for NOT liking gay people?

If someone treats homosexuals with respect, doesn't abuse them physically or emotionally, but still in their mind does not like homosexuals at all, and feels they are living an evil life, can you judge this person? They cannot help their feelings, can they? For whatever reason, if someone views homosexuals in a negative manner, but doesn't act on those thoughts, do you feel this person is any less of a "good" person simply because of how they FEEL about homosexuals? I know many people hate those that are against gays, but aren't you being just as intolerant? A gay person is (usually, in my opinion) gay because they can't help it. They FEEL attracted to their same sex, and they cannot help it. So isn't it hypocritical to view people in a negative light simply because they are "against" gays? If someone in their heart just really doesn't like gay people, but still shows them respect in person, would you have anything against them? If so, why? Do you feel they can somehow change their feelings? If so, why couldn't a gay person change their feelings as well, and start being attracted to the opposite sex?

3. Pedophiles, and other people who have socially unacceptable sexual desires:

I separated this from the homophobia section because I know gay people don't like to be associated with pedophiles and other "sexual deviants" for obvious reasons, because they don't feel their sexual orientation is wrong, or immoral. But the basic idea I'm trying to explore here is the same.

Of the groups mentioned in this thread, I'm sure this one will be the most emotion inspiring. Almost nothing gets people's blood boiling and amps up their desire to engage in violence more than talk of pedophiles and those attracted to underage people. Again, I do not wish this to be a thread about whether or not such things are "OK" but instead about how you can judge someone based on something they cannot change.

Do you personally feel a someone is evil, immoral, disgusting, dangerous, etc for being attracted to underage people? Just like previously, this is not about those that act on their feelings. But instead about someone who simply FEELs a certain way, whos mind thinks things that they cannot control, or (I'll ask again) can someone control what they think? Try not to think about a cheeseburger for the rest of your life. Can you do it? Are we in control over our thoughts, and if not, how can we be blamed for them?

Just like a homosexual who is attracted to the same sex, without a choice in the matter, some people are attracted to children, without a choice in the manner. If they NEVER act on such things, and do not ever get involved with any illegal aspects, and never hurt a child, would you hate such a person? Just because they unwillingly FEEL a certain way, would you judge them? How? Why? Do you think they can control who or what they are attracted to? If not, than isn't it wrong to judge someone for something they have no control over?

What about people who are attracted sexually to animals, but don't ever engage in beastiality? Or someone who is extremely attracted to dead bodies, but never kills someone, or actually has sex with one? Would you judge such a person for simply possessing certain feelings? How? Why?

I apologize for the long thread, but I really am curious to get other people's opinions on this matter. Like many people here on ATS I wish to grow as a person, and in my search for growth I have realized that judging people stands in the way of that. I, like the majority of people, find pedophiles disgusting, and I start thinking about all the horrible things I would do to someone if I caught them hurting a child. But I feel the same way about them, even if they DIDN'T hurt anyone. Just them feeling the way they do, even if they never act upon their thoughts for their entire life, still angers me to no end.

But, it's kind of circular I guess, because if I FEEL so violent towards such people, but never act such things out, how can I be blamed for that feeling? I don't know, I don't have any answers, just questions, and I really wanted to get other peoples ideas, and if you have related questions you want to throw into the pot, feel free to do so.

Thanks for taking a look.

yes

reply to post by James1982


The basic awnser is yes. People are in control of their thoughts. Feelings, not nessicarily. Feelings are mostly influenced by your enviroment. But in the end, only you can help yourself.

Originally posted by Warpthal
But in the end, only you can help yourself.

Eh, shock therapy works too.

I agree though. Thoughts are something that, compared to feelings, are easy to control. It's tough to change the way you feel though. Imagine trying to feel warm sitting naked in Antarctica. If you can control that, you might be able to control your feelings about the OP's aforementioned topics. Otherwise, you can pretty much blame the way you were raised as the reasoning for why you feel the way you do about certain topics.

reply to post by Warpthal


How can you control your thoughts? Like I said about the cheeseburger, can you make yourself never think about a cheeseburger for the rest of your life?

Aren't thoughts just an extension of feelings? The way your mind rationalizes and explains feelings in way that you can put into words, and relate to others with?

Do you think that you can stop from ever having negative thoughts about another race, or thoughts about your same gender, or thoughts about the way someone live their life?

Originally posted by Warpthal
reply to post by James1982

 

The basic awnser is yes. People are in control of their thoughts. Feelings, not nessicarily. Feelings are mostly influenced by your enviroment. But in the end, only you can help yourself.

I believe (as William Glasser does) that thoughts can be controlled - and that emotions can be indirectly controlled by how and what We choose to think.

Check out Choice Theory.

reply to post by scojak


By "feel" I don't mean physical sensaion, I mean emotions. And like I asked the other poster, don't you think thoughts are simply an extension of feelings?

Some people can control the physical, like the monks that can sit in sub-zero temperatures and stay warm. But I'd be willing to bet even they can't stop themselves from thinking a certain thought, or feeling a certain emotion. Are you so sure people can?

In my opinion it's impossible to stop yourself from thinking a thought, or experiencing an emotion. How can you? You don't say "OK, I'm going to think about ice cream right now" do you? No, your going about, doing whatever you are doing, and all of the sudden it pops into your head "Man I really want some ice cream right now!"

I just don't see how anyone can think you can control your thoughts, as I truly believe they are an extension of emotions, which are even more impossible to control.

Considering the fact that I only know part of the big picture, I have my trust in the way Intrelligence (the meta system) is teaching and guiding me. Everybody is here to learn and to activate their potential. Everybody has to learn from their own predicaments, which are taylor-made for their journey. Interfering is counterproductive not only to other individuals but keeps me from focusing on my own growth, to be free of judgment and to be free of thoughts and feelings as you described them.

reply to post by Amaterasu


So (assuming you are heterosexual) you could just choose to be homosexual if you felt like it? You could actually induce strong feelings of attraction for the same gender?

I think that people can keep a handle on their feelings and emotions, and block out things to a certain degree. And I absolutely think that people can control their words and actions. But to completely stop a thought from ever entering your mind, or to completely banish an emotion about a certain subject, I truly believe this to be impossible.

Thanks for the suggestion on Choice Theory. I am currently looking into it

Here is an educated response, not just a meaningless "yes".

I am a retired mental health professional, clinical therapist, and have worked with people with all sorts of compulsions and emotional feelings. The answer to your question as to whether people can control their feelings and thoughts is that a person with normal, healthy thinking (relative to the vast majority of decent people) CAN, with a LOT of work and sustained effort and practice, years and years of practice, learn to manage their thoughts and feelings and behaviors. It is a therapeutic method, actually, called Cognitive Behavioral Therapy.

The basis is that our conduct and state of mind are linked and respond to each other. Like a triangle, with point A being Actions, point B being Thoughts, and point C being Feelings.

A person who is merely "neurotic" (as most everyone is in one way or another), can learn, for example to stop THOUGHTS of a certain nature, to ignore EMOTIONS connected with the trigger subject, and thereby change their BEHAVIOR. Likewise, changing one's BEHAVIOR affects thoughts and emotions. All 3 are inextricably linked. If you make a change in one area you affect the other areas.

The caveat is that it is HARD WORK, and the reason that therapy is not always effective is that people who COULD do it often find it to difficult, or become tired of trying and resort back to their standard "mode" of thinking, reacting/feeling, and behaving. Good examples are domestic violence victims, obsessive-compulsive people (germophobes, for example), codependent people involved in unhealthy, non-nurturing relationships. If they have BASIC normal cognitiion, they can learn what triggers their feelings, what triggers their emotions, and what triggers their behaviors.

Now, having said that, as a therapist I did not "judge" any of my clients. I merely attempted to help THEM understand what their options were, what their own goals were, and what they might try to do to improve the discomfort they were dealing with because of unproductive thinking, feeling, or behaviors.

So, the answer to the "judgment" of others who in no way act out their negative attitudes or perverse desires, it is normal and healthy to consider another's point of view, and then judge the POV as healthy and moral, or not.

Flat-out Judgment of others is too subjective, None of us are in anyone else's head, have lived their experiences, have been in their lives as they have been. The most we can do is watch, listen, and try to understand HOW they are. Then, we may choose whether or not we want to interact with that person, or to respond to them.

Again, all of the above is basic psychology, and only one method of treatment of many different styles available and theories on behavior. As a professional, one learns many different theories of behavior and the human condition. These theories and methods of treatment are used as a pool of resources after getting a picture of the client's problem.

Now, the difference is that some people have Personality Disorders, and they do NOT behave like normal people. They are NOT able to control their thoughts, feelings or behaviors. I can learn to temper a racial bias or to stop being afraid of germs or to stop getting involved with "bad boys", knowing that those are not productive attitudes.

People who are PSYCHOPATHS, who have hardened faulty thinking, can NOT do that.

So, the answer is, some things one can learn to change, yes. But if one is discovered to have thought disorders, that is, they don't think like normal people, have no empathy, have irregular fetishes, and are not adjusted well to living, the chance of them learning to control their thoughts, feelings, behaviors is MINIMAL.

You can learn much more about this by reading books on psychology.
Interesting question!

Originally posted by James1982
reply to post by Warpthal

 

How can you control your thoughts? Like I said about the cheeseburger, can you make yourself never think about a cheeseburger for the rest of your life?

No, but if You train Yourself, You can get in the habit of thinking of a goldfish every time You think of a cheeseburger... In this way, You can control Your thoughts. Also... By changing HOW You think of something, You can control Your emotions.

Aren't thoughts just an extension of feelings?

You have the cart before the horse here. Feelings are extensions of thoughts.

The way your mind rationalizes and explains feelings in way that you can put into words, and relate to others with?

The mind does not rationalize or explain feelings - feelings happen based on thought - and then We might analyze the feelings...

Do you think that you can stop from ever having negative thoughts about another race, or thoughts about your same gender, or thoughts about the way someone live their life?

No, but that is not the same as controlling Your thoughts. When One thinks a negative thought - about a group, say, and has trained Oneself to stop and think, It's silly at best and hurtful at worst to generalize all people in any way; everyOne is an individual. This will change One's feelings.

I think that people are attracted to other interesting people no matter what color, gender, age or body temperature. This is in my opinion related to feelings. And that, I think you can control, just as I can decide that I will be happy today.

Thoughts however is a whole other issue. I do not think that you always can control your thoughts. You can analyze your thoughts to be either good or bad and try to remove or reduce the unwanted thoughts. But I am not so sure that it would always be successful.

So my answer would be that you can control your feelings, but not your thoughts necessarily.

Just my opinion.

Evilene

You are absolutely able to control your thoughts and feelings to a large degree, especially things like opinions of racism. What you do is derail your own mental train... or attempt to. You force yourself to consider other things, look at other things, let it digest, be patient with ultimate conclusions. There is a very good chance that in time if you put forth an effort, you will see some type of metamorphosis of your feelings. It may completely change you, it may not... but you are in control of your actions and therefore are in control of what you expose yourself to and what you try to learn/try to block out. Those things take action.... or even mental effort.... and they can produce changes.

It has a lot to do with the data that is stored in different areas of your mind, different types of thinking.
It also has to do with intention.... sometimes intentions backfire but they can still produce changes.

reply to post by Amaterasu


While your points are valid in many ways, it's not a cart-and-horse thing. Emotions are a separate realm from thought. People who meditate a lot, trying to release all thoughts, and to recognize emotions as they arise, are more able to deal with life.

Emotions are not caused just by thoughts. Emotions are the brain's alert system. My dad died last year, and I was grieving deeply for a long time. Emotions are responses to stimulus, not to thoughts. Sorry, and I've read Glasser and appreciate your mentioning him, but emotions are not CAUSED just by thoughts. They can be caused by events, stressors, crises, any number of life events. Thoughts CAN BE triggered by emotions, but a person need not be in a heightened emotional state to have a thought. They affect one another. They are not cause and effect.

reply to post by wildtimes


Thank you very much for sharing, very interesting, star for you!

I should have been more specific with my language. By controlling ones thoughts or feelings, I don't mean just modifying them or keeping them in check, but completely stopping them. Like I keep repeating about the cheeseburger. Someone can limit the exposure they have to things that would make them think of cheeseburgers, and learn to quickly disregard their thought of eating a cheeseburger, but I don't think it's possible to ever completely stop from thinking about a cheeseburger, even with an unlimited amount of work, for the rest of your life.

I really am trying to get people's opinions on judgment of others, and I totally agree with your assessment of that in your post. I, like most people, do judge others. I think everyone does it. Judging someone's actions is easy, as they are making a choice to do so. But judging someone's feelings or thoughts, while easy to do, doesn't seem right to e anymore.

Someone that hates blacks and wants to kill them all, or someone that is attracted to children, even if these people live a normal life and never hurt anyone, the fact that they have these feelings just really upsets me, and I judge them as a person because of it. But how can I judge them for something they can't completely control? Like you were saying with hard work they can curtail those thoughts, but it's impossible (again, IMO) to ever completely rid themselves of such thoughts.

I've always been a fairly violent person, and I can't stand that about myself. In the past I would often use violence to express my feelings about things. I have never, ever, been a perpetrator of domestic violence or abuse, but when I'm honest I'll tell you that my initial emotion when something bad happens, or someone does something I deem to be bad (such as murderers, molesters, etc) is just pure rage. This has got me in minor trouble with the law, damaged my own body, and a few other people's bodies, I accept that was wrong and I have changed that about myself.

I no longer act in a violent manner, but I cannot rid myself of violent thoughts and emotions. It's not just random psychopathic violence mind you, it's just that when I witness injustices, or innocent people suffering, I just want to tear the perpetrator apart. But then I feel that makes me almost as bad, even thought I only direct such things against people that have already proven themselves to be dangerous and "evil" in a sense.

I seem to be rambling now so I'll stop heh heh. But thanks again for your post. Just so I understand your opinion, do you agree with me that someone can never completely stop themselves from feeling a certain emotion, or thinking a thought, the best they can hope for is to lessen the impact these thoughts and emotions have on their lives?

Originally posted by Amaterasu

No, but if You train Yourself, You can get in the habit of thinking of a goldfish every time You think of a cheeseburger... In this way, You can control Your thoughts. Also... By changing HOW You think of something, You can control Your emotions.

Oh but there lies the problem. I don't think I was very specific with what I meant by controlling thoughts. I mean completely stopping yourself from ever experiencing a specific emotion about something, or ever thinking a single thought. Not just re-directing that thought or emotion after it has already occurred. When you say to think of a goldfish whenever you think of a cheeseburger, you already thought of the cheeseburger, so while you can re-direct a thought, I don't think you can ever stop it from occurring in the first place.

Originally posted by Amaterasu


You have the cart before the horse here. Feelings are extensions of thoughts.

I'm of the opinion the opposite is true. When you are with someone you really care for, you feel happy, content, etc. Then you start to think about how much you care for the person, how much they care for you, things you enjoy doing together, etc.

You can feel an emotion without thinking about events or concepts. I think that emotions are more basic, "lower lifeforms" can probably feel basic emotions, but don't really form complex thoughts about those emotions.

Perhaps it's more of a chicken and the egg type of deal, but if anything I still think that thoughts stem from emotions, not the other way around. Although the language we use here is probably inadequate to fully explore these ideas.

Originally posted by Amaterasu


No, but that is not the same as controlling Your thoughts. When One thinks a negative thought - about a group, say, and has trained Oneself to stop and think, It's silly at best and hurtful at worst to generalize all people in any way; everyOne is an individual. This will change One's feelings.

I'll agree that you can realize that having negative opinions of a race is stupid, pointless, and has no basis in reality. But, as I believe an emotion is the most basic form, that you can never really stop the way you feel about a race, if you are a racist for example. You can perhaps stop yourself from thinking that they are actually bad in any way, and rationalize that they are people like everyone else, but if you have that seed sewn in your heart, I don't think you can ever completely stop that immediate gut reaction. I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

Originally posted by James1982
By "feel" I don't mean physical sensaion, I mean emotions. And like I asked the other poster, don't you think thoughts are simply an extension of feelings?

Some people can control the physical, like the monks that can sit in sub-zero temperatures and stay warm. But I'd be willing to bet even they can't stop themselves from thinking a certain thought, or feeling a certain emotion. Are you so sure people can?

In my opinion it's impossible to stop yourself from thinking a thought, or experiencing an emotion. How can you? You don't say "OK, I'm going to think about ice cream right now" do you? No, your going about, doing whatever you are doing, and all of the sudden it pops into your head "Man I really want some ice cream right now!"

I just don't see how anyone can think you can control your thoughts, as I truly believe they are an extension of emotions, which are even more impossible to control.

Well, it's obviously tough to try and explain anything about this, but I'll give it my best.

The feeling of hot or cold is still a mental process. Have you ever tried to embrace the cold when you are cold? It's pretty cool. You can stop shivering. Now, I know your body shivers to make you warmer, but the fact that you are shivering reminds you that you are cold. If you can forget you are cold, you will feel warmer. I do it a lot when I'm cold. I'm not good at holding onto the feeling, as freezing temperatures are hard to ignore, but if practiced, as monks do, I'm sure I'd get much better.

The same goes with emotions. If you can forget that you have certain feelings about something, you stop thinking about them. Junior year in college, my girlfriend broke up with me. She had moved to Canada for good reasons, long story, so we tried long distance. She decided it wasn't working and broke it off, even though I was traveling monthly to visit her. She wouldn't give me a good reason for why, and I was completely torn up over it, mostly because I just didn't understand why it happened. Months miserably went by and I had to do something to get over her. So I decided that she was cheating on me. She wasn't, but I convinced myself she was, and that she was a complete b!tch for doing so. I even started thinking of all the things I could that I didn't like about her. Maybe not the best of ways to console my emotions, but it certainly helped. I got over her pretty quickly once I had changed my feelings about her.

Interesting thought from this, maybe it's actually feelings that are extensions of thoughts since you have to think about something in the first place in order to feel one way or another about it.

Anyway, I had realized going in that it wasn't a healthy way to deal with my problems, so once I had changed my feelings, I just tried to forget about the whole thing. After two years I wasn't thinking about her at all. I still love her though, and can hold her in the highest regard since all my thoughts were made up. I cherish the time we had, and I have no bad memories of our time together. Even when I think about the break up, which I know was a terrible time for me, I feel indifferent to the fact that it happened. During that experience I was able to control my thoughts about something to affect the way I felt.

I'll admit that I am still reminded of her every now and then, just like your example with ice cream. Thoughts like this are from inspiration, an exterior stimulus can cause reactions and memories that pop up as thoughts in your mind. But thoughts also come from creation. You can think of anything you want in any way you want, and if you can do so much as to convince yourself those thoughts are right, you will believe it... you will feel it.

Feelings (or perhaps I should say 'emotions' - energy in motion), follows thought. Simple. Thoughts can be manipulated and are manipulated in many ways in this world; through the media, politics, religion. The 'threat' of terror is one way of manipulating the masses, just as an example. Not only can and are our thoughts often manipulated through these means, but our thoughts are also monitored. So far as I can work it out, there are likely to be certain 'words' or 'phrases' that are picked up and which trigger what I call, 'the predator program'. Think 'artificial intelligence'. It is my opinion that certain thoughts are not our own, but are seeded and perpetuated in order to keep the HuMan Being 'down' and unable to grasp the concept of how our minds are not always our own. Ideas about judgement of others, racism, through belief systems whether they be religious, political or cultural, or whatever, are engendered through the popular press, television, the main stream media. Designed of course, to keep each separated and in distrust of the 'other'; the world and your neighbour becomes potentially threatening and humanity is kept swimming in a sea of uncertainty. We are just kept so 'busy' with it all, with no 'time' to 'think' for ourselves, unless the treadmill of life stops in some way, or you get off it for a long moment or two, to contemplate these concepts.

Perhaps an exploration into mind control techniques throughout the last 50 or so years, might give you some clearer and painfully truthful answers to your questions, if you really want to know that is; although it is a 'rabbit hole' indeed! I apoligise if this breaks into the 'mainstream' of this conversation. I really don't mean to upset anyone, but please realise that this world is not what most imagine it to be. So, I just offer these 'thoughts' for you to consider, though I am prettty sure that your very own 'predator program' will kick in and divert you, most likely with the idea that this is nonsense and I am one strange cookie. But, that's ok ... your thoughts are your business .... right? Your mind your own ... right?

I remember reading about a therapy once.
It was to change the way overweight people saw/thought of food.
They were told to imagine everything that disgusted them, spittoons, barber shop floor hair, toilets etc.
Then they were told to imagine ALL of that filth on their candy bar/food.
It affected the way the saw the food & the previous associated feelings of it being 'good' or a 'treat'.
I think it may have also involved a rubber band around their wrist to 'snap' as they experienced each thought of disgust towards the food.
Apparently there was good long term results.....

As far as actually STOPPING thoughts forever- No
I have suffered from panic disorder in the past. The power of stupid/frightening thoughts could disable me.
After trying to fight this disorder from various methods, I finally learn t the only way was to change the way I FELT about the thoughts. This involved not mentally reacting to upsetting thoughts & letting them 'float' away-extremely hard to do at first, but gets much easier with practice.
As I did this, the thoughts lost their power', & truly didn't matter anymore.
The only thoughts that disappear forever are the ones your mind has 'sorted' into the 'not important' file.

I think the mind is geared to continually question, evaluate etc. So if you wanted to stop the 'Cheeseburger Thought', it would be continually trying to understand 'WHY"-eg is it a threat, a reward etc.
So you would get-
Cheeseburger
What about Cheeseburger?
Oi !! Cheeseburger
CHEESEBURGER!!!

Yes you can, if you are willing to work at it.