The psychology of Homosexuality

So, in a nutshell, if you choose to BELIEVE you're not gay, Presto...you're not gay!
If you fail...then you didn't believe hard enough.

Why is this reminiscent of a particular religious dogma?


Truth is...or facts are, that psychosomatic response is scientifically recordable.
The placebo effect has been validated. But only in a small percetage of cases.

To sum....if you believe ~hard enough~ that you can fly, you might be able to fly.
But on your first attempt make sure that you are on the ground, preferably on a
nice, soft, grassy surface...and not fifteen stories up on a window ledge...

I gonna give it a try.

I believe I am heterosexual, I believe I am heterosexual, I believe I am heterosexual,
I believe I am heterosexual......

Hey it worked....I AM heterosexual.

Now you try....

I believe I AM tolerant of other people's sexuality, I believe I AM tolerant of other people's sexuality,
I believe I AM tolerant of other people's sexuality......


So how did you do?

I'm not quite sure what is meant by "changing their desires." I mean sure, as a straight man, I can take my mind off of sex with women, I can avoid thinking about it or feeling that desire. So I can "change my desires," and I suppose gay people can as well. Any human being can alter their thinking. But it's not as if I would otherwise go around sexually aroused 24/7 and wanting to have sex with women unless I suffered from nymphomania. Gay people don't go around constantly wanting to have sex or something. They're just like heterosexuals, with varying sexual appetites and interests, all of which are incidental to the rest of their lives. Just because they have a sexuality that differs from that of what people think is mainstream or majority, does not mean that sexuality is the basis of their entire lives anymore than being straight is the basis for my entire life.

But lets assume that one could curtail their "desires" as described above. Suppose they choose not to? What if they're (gasp!) happy the way they are?

There have been three distinct arguments against homosexuality in this thread:

1) It's "unnatural." It occurs in numerous animal species, and humanity has evolved homosexuality via natural selection and evolution. Seems natural enough to me.

2) Well, it's unnatural because sex is for procreation. So sterile couples cannot have sex for recreation? They're "unnatural?"

3) It is a challenge created by God that they should strive to overcome. Okay, so... God created homosexuality. God created something you believe he expressly forbids, and "inflicts" it on his "children," who he also created in all respects (including homosexuality,) and demands that they overcome this or be shunned as sinners? Sorry, I can't accept that. But I respect that belief if it is one you hold, despite not sharing it.

So basically, as always in these discussions, it comes down to this. I respect and tolerate people's right to believe whatever they believe, and to practice those beliefs. If that includes openly saying homosexuality is wrong, a sin, shouldn't happen, etc. then that's fine. People have freedom of speech and I absolutely respect that right.

But gay people likewise have the right to live their lives and be who and what they are. If you believe they don't have that right, then answer me this: what do you think should be done about it? And think carefully about the implications of your reply.

There's literally not a single thing I can utter about this issue beyond those two points that wouldn't stray from the central, vital issue here.

Just my two cents. Peace.

reply to post by dontreally


I am so sick of people trying to find ways to explain why us homosexuals are how we are, let me tell you something, im a lesbian women, i will never date a man, men physically make me sick,we CANNOT be attracted to the oppisite sex, you might not like homosexuality but accept your cousin wich is fair enough, but you dont except it because RELIGION does not like it, we are born how we are, leave it be, if us homosexuals started telling all you straights to be gay or lesbian and you were messed up for being how you are you wouldnt like it one bit, i respect the effort you put into this post but PLEASE just leave it alone, i find it sad that things like the sissy experiment and other experiments even exist, we are how we are, we are not animals, most GOOD religions teach to leave it be and respect peoples choices, but theres the ones who have to open there mouths nd telll us whats rite and wrong! and yes thats true that homosexuality existed in the earlier times, its just the people who decided they didnt like it that chose it was wrong. i think its time moderators STOP letting people post things to do with anti homosexuality. Desires or what ever you think are wrong, i was a woman who tried to be with men but it not long after made me sick emotionaly and physically, and my partner, dated men, but is now lesbian as she used to be bi, the point is, you CANT tell us we can change it, we are born how we are and i think people need to leave it, things like gay pride exist because people lilke you and other religious or redneck enthusiast out there commit gay hate crimes, so things like gay pride exist to give us homosexual people a scence of belonging, strength,fearlessness and pride! against people, the repressors in scociety. and as i have said before, for those who tell us what is rite and what is wrong, what should be and what not should be, its called repression and dictatorship, your no better then the repressors through history from the Nazis of germany to the Tirants of the middle east.

reply to post by AceWombat04


I just also would like to add: i love the positive replies in support of being homosexual, and no, we cant just say, im not homosexual, im hetro, bang im cured, we are happy how we are, just .like hetros are happy how they are, id also like to add i have been on both sides, and i felt disgusting i tried to be with men, no offence to you good people who support us, every three days a transgender person is killed due to a violent anti transgender anti homosexual death, i personaly have been on the end of violence, from my own family member, and yes, i just said this in a public forum, but i want people to know that the violence stems from everywhere possable! so next time you know a homosexual person or a transgender person, like me, who is a lesbian, who has been exposed to violence, and had things done to them in ways that shouldnt of been done because of how they are, how about saying, im proud of you,or, dont stop being who you are, because you and i will stand unitedm and fight gay hate together.

reply to post by LexiconV


The whole "gay" topic had NOTHING to do with my little side-argument. Read before it.

reply to post by LexiconV


Not only do you misunderstand me, but you're an idiot.

reply to post by Hoopinator


Oh so your insukting me, your the "idiot" posting the topic. serriosley, how bout just not posting, i read the whole thing, and the whole reply from my end is not completly directed at YOU but a broad range of biggots and haters, i praised you for supporting your family members decision, so thank you, your just another rude member to add to my rival list.

I think that the OP seems to be wondering whether or not it's possible for a gay person to become straight, and perhaps vice-versa, and also the larger issue (which gets lost and ignored in threads like this due to all the flaming and arguments) of humankind trying to control and sometimes suppress base animal instincts, and when/if such desires should be acted upon.

Clearly the answer to the first question is that it isn't possible for someone to switch their sexual orientation. However, it is indeed possible for people to bury and suppress certain sexual urges; but whether or not they should is dependent on many factors, some of them personal and some societal (and in some cases legal). An example of this is people who choose to abstain from all sexual contact for religious reasons, like nuns and monks (obviously pedophile Caltholic priests don't honor those vows, but Catholic clergy are supposed to remain celibate, at least in theory!). One might argue that that is also unnatural (though perhaps not, there are indeed examples asexual animals, including those that belong to species that reproduce sexually - though in that case it isn't a choice to abstain but a complete lack of desire for sex, period- check this out for more info: asexuality) but obviously there are people who manage to pull it off, generally by focusing their energies elsewhere and usually living in controlled environments where temptation is minimal or non-existent.

The 2nd issue here is what sorts of behaviors are permissible and tolerated in various societies, both morally, spiritually and legally, regardless of what sorts of urges a given person might experience. Many people cite pedophilia, which isn't a very good example as I have known some prejudiced people who assumed that gays, especially gay males, were pedophiles. I can see where many might find that association insulting. However, if you look objectively at someone who is a pedophile (some societies tolerate and even encourage it, while others do not), in some ways you have to feel really badly for a person trapped in that sort of predicament as they have feelings that can't legitimately be acted upon (nor should they be). It would also have to suck to be attracted to members of another species, again, something that is even less tolerated by human society than pedophilia. Even the ancient Greeks and Romans discouraged bestiality with myths of how human-animal matings produced monstrous and terrifying offspring like the Minotaur.

Illegal behaviors aside, in societies there are some acts that are fully legal but still frowned upon by and large, while others tend not to be. The question is whether or not these desires should be acted upon, even those that have been shown to be part of the heritage and makeup of homo sapiens. An example I would use is adultery. In most industrialized nations it is no longer against the law, and studies have shown that our species isn't exactly fully monogamous. In fact, many species of birds have us beat hands down (or should I say "wings down"!) with regard to being faithful to a life partner. So the question is should a person who is married commit adultery (in fact, should the word "commit" even be used at all?) simply because the human species isn't fully monogamous? Adultery is therefore natural within our own species, yet all the while, most people still frown on it as have most societies. Also, polygamy is natural for most of our primate relatives, where one dominant male mates with as many females as he can gather together within the particular social structure of that species.

So, I think the real question here goes above and beyond the whole tired gay/anti-gay crappola and is really all about which of humankind's primitive animal desires should he/she suppress and which ones not. I really don't see a good and easy answer to that, as on one hand, no one wants to live in a society where the iron hand of a government or religious body can dictate every little behavior, but on the other hand, I don't think it would be very good to live in a society (wouldn't really be a society any more) where people just went around acting like animals and doing whatever they feel and please. There has to be some sort of middle ground with social mores and at least some societal restrictions on behavior. That, I think is the real debate that is going on in many of these threads.

Originally posted by dontreally
reply to post by Thoriumisbest

 

Well, im not wrong. I dont mean to offend anyone. But the fact is: Desires CAN be changed. This is a basic fact, known since time immemorial, but due to propaganda/social factors, can be difficult to understand.

How about we ask an ex-smoker, or Alcoholic, former drug addict if you can change desire.... Hey this Research would be free, find a local AA meeting and ask them if they still have a desire to drink. I bet you my yearly income you will find that it is still there, the action is simply refused. As I have experience with NA(Narcotics Anonymous) I have first hand experiance on this. You are ignorant on this subject, opinion is fine but it is still far from fact.

edit on 12-6-2011 by UnlawfullPriest because: Screwed up the qoute

I was just going to say how well informed and written this post was when I read this (To be fair, the whole post is well written and intelligently thoght out)

Originally posted by Schrecken Licht

..... no one wants to live in a society where the iron hand of a government or religious body can dictate every little behavior, but on the other hand, I don't think it would be very good to live in a society (wouldn't really be a society any more) where people just went around acting like animals and doing whatever they feel and please.

I always have a problem when I read such generalisations. The assumption you are making here is that without moral guidance we as people will act like animals. Well, this is no better than saying "Men will behave badly if we don't make women cover themselves in public".

I CAN be trusted to make these decissions for myself, as can the very vast majority of us. I can confidently say I would be able to live the rest of my life doing whatever I wanted to do, and not hurt or be horrible to any other human.

It is like the concept of origional sin isn't it really? We are all born bad and need guiding through our lives or there will be chaos, we will all murder and rape and pillage..... No we won't, don't buy into that cr#p!

The psychology of Homosexuality

Yeah! Don't bend over..........

Originally posted by Hoopinator

I'm done with this. Go back to your MSN and make your apologies for our country. When the BS starts and you're cowering in a corner, you can thank people like me for defending your non-deserving behind. Having pride in your country isn't ego. It's patriotism. That's become such a bad word as of late. Read the Constitution.

Oh, and by the way...I'm all about progression. God knows we've learned a lot from stupid mistakes. At least some of us have. I simply refuse to be bred out of existence by you liberals and all Anti-Americans. Being American is not something to be ashamed of.

Thanks for the insult... But back to this post of yours. I suggest you read the Constitution. Your soul has been sold as part of Corporate US. You think you have rights... check again. Your rights are being dissolved from under you. You think you own that block of land... check again. You think you are an American... that era is passing. You are a Corporation within Corporate US... read your Constitution or get someone who can interpret it for you. Lots of luck buddy. You wanna get angry and call people names Get angry with your Govt.... see how far you get.
Ever heard of Project 60 I hope this turns out to be a bad joke.

reply to post by LexiconV


I actually agree with everything you said. It's just sad that all we've become is a burden for a government that is supposed to represent US. Sad sad.

And I am sorry for the insult. It wasn't necessary. I got caught up in the moment and wasn't thinking.

reply to post by dontreally
[more

Since you do not seem to know that "I" is always capitalized, regardless of where it is in a sentance, I find it hard to believe you have really put much time or thought into this. There is other examples of "Gay" In nature. My Sisters male dog always tries to hump my male dog. Whats up with that? Maybe you can beat it out of them?

Originally posted by Shamatt
I was just going to say how well informed and written this post was when I read this (To be fair, the whole post is well written and intelligently thoght out)

Originally posted by Schrecken Licht

..... no one wants to live in a society where the iron hand of a government or religious body can dictate every little behavior, but on the other hand, I don't think it would be very good to live in a society (wouldn't really be a society any more) where people just went around acting like animals and doing whatever they feel and please.

I always have a problem when I read such generalisations. The assumption you are making here is that without moral guidance we as people will act like animals. Well, this is no better than saying "Men will behave badly if we don't make women cover themselves in public".

I CAN be trusted to make these decissions for myself, as can the very vast majority of us. I can confidently say I would be able to live the rest of my life doing whatever I wanted to do, and not hurt or be horrible to any other human.

It is like the concept of origional sin isn't it really? We are all born bad and need guiding through our lives or there will be chaos, we will all murder and rape and pillage..... No we won't, don't buy into that cr#p!

Almost all human cultures have had/do have rules that each member of the society (at least in theory, clearly there are people who think they are above the law, especially those in power) must adhere to, even if those rules are very simple and aren't even written down.
You are right that most people would tend to behave themselves and be content to live on a honor system of sorts; however, there are always those who would do whatever they wanted to (even if something relatively minor like stealing others' belongings) simply because there is no threat of punishment because there is no such law to break. Even "primitive" hunter-gatherer type tribes generally have at least some unwritten laws that, if broken, prompt some sort of punishment. No traditional Ten Commandments in these small relatively isolated societies but still for a large group of people to function there have to be some sort of rules that everyone has to follow. This is why I would say that if there were no laws, and no consequences for breaking those laws (morals aside, which don't always cover things that are technically illegal anyway, you can do something morally wrong and not break any laws, depending on what laws you live under), you would indeed have eventual mayhem simply because there would always be at least some people who would run wild.

reply to post by Chindogu

Sorry for my very late response. If they cured the flaws of ones brain who believes in religion, they can cure ones flaws in ones brain of mistaking their sexuality. Fine, more people born in San Fran are gay. More people in TX are Christians. Society confuses both, religion and sex. Prime example, priests. But mind you, it is all in their mind.