Kansas girl, 5, may face murder charges in drowning

Originally posted by CaDreamer
reply to post by Equinox99

 

Missouri girl in Kansas city...you mistyped. wrong state...

a 1995 Missouri law removed the minimum age limit, which had been 14, for trying children as adults in cases involving drug dealing, murder, rape, robbery, and first-degree assault. The law also permits children 12 years old to be prosecuted as adults for other crimes. www.libraryindex.com...

Utterly insane.
Sick sick puppies.
V

Originally posted by Vicky32

Originally posted by CaDreamer
reply to post by Equinox99

 

Missouri girl in Kansas city...you mistyped. wrong state...

a 1995 Missouri law removed the minimum age limit, which had been 14, for trying children as adults in cases involving drug dealing, murder, rape, robbery, and first-degree assault. The law also permits children 12 years old to be prosecuted as adults for other crimes. www.libraryindex.com...

Utterly insane.
Sick sick puppies.
V

Agreed.

Great state of Missouri my arse.

So, does that mean that a 12 year old can go drink, rent porn, etc? I mean, if they are going to be tried as an adult, and get punished like an adult, then surely they can also get the benefits of an adult.

I actually have no problem with a sliding scale of adulthood...some 15 year olds are very adult, and some 18 year olds barely pass the mark...hell, it could be a psychologists boom to evaluate kids to determine their adult status...however, its wrong to punish kids like an adult, but not reward them as such...its not justice, its not "right", its just a complete failure all around.

Either 18 is the bar for being an adult, or it isn't...no picking and choosing based on your desire for vengence or reward

Trust a thread like this to glaringly show who responsible, sensible adults are and the law school fantasists.

The babysitter should be charged with neglect, the family as a whole will need sympathetic counselling & condolence and the little girl in question should just get on with her life. This is the sort of thing that will happen if you leave small children in a bath, the toddler could have easily drowned anyway.

Originally posted by ExPostFacto
reply to post by newcovenant

 

You are right most states define criminal culpability as ages 1-7 or those defined with some mental deficiency or extremely low IQ. Ages 8-13 are generally regarded as knowing right from wrong; however, again there is a rebuttable presumption of this right or wrong knowledge, meaning every person between ages 8-13 does not know every right or wrong that exists and while some might know it is wrong to kill someone, may not understand the act they were committing would lead to that death.

Little kids sometimes have a block on their rationale ability to interpret the effect of their actions. They may simply believe that by holding a childs mouth closed they would stop them from crying, without giving any thought to the possibility the child would not be able to get any air. Little minds do stupid things sometime when viewed at from an adult perspective.

Well said. I tried apparently unsuccessfully to say the same with this:

She may NOT have made the connection and KNOWN what would happen to her brother would be permanent.

reply to post by Equinox99


The only one here to be charge with "involuntary murder is the adult that was in the house at the time that the child was left along in the bathtub with the toddler.

No doubt the babysitter should've been on the job. Imo a 5 year old child who drowns a baby for crying isn't normal. Here's a couple articles about two 5 year old kids who helped save drowning toddlers.

Dad talks about daughter’s near-drowning

5-year-old saves toddler from drowning

This child needs therapy and should be watched very closely. Just because some of you feel a 5 year old shouldn't be held responsible doesn't make them any less violent or dangerous. Even with supervision such a child can do a lot of damage. All it takes is turning your back for a second. My older brother was very violent at 5, by 6 he was expelled from school. I was not safe around him even when my parents were there.

We can't be in denial because a child seems too young to understand. I'm tired of kids simply being labeled as bullies. This implies they might grow out of it and somewhat excuses their behavior. My bully brother grew into a violent man. We have to get a handle on violent children and the parents who raise them. It's these grown up bullies who go on to become wife beaters/child abusers/criminals in general. Just my opinion.

reply to post by aching_knuckles

You're right, I'm wrong, my eyes must have been crossed from too much sun. I give my heart felt apology and another one to boot just in case you missed the first one.

No, I'd never kill it intentionally - ever - but I do know goldfish are notorious for going 'belly up' without much too-do. And sure there's a lesson to be learned but not after a does from the Clorox bottle.

Thanks for pointing out my mistake -

peace

Why charge the girl? why not charge the mother? Afterall it was the mothers responsibility.

according to this story....
1. the babysitter was a mentally handicapped 16 year old.....
not sure if she should even be held accountable for this....

2. the child was drowned in a bathtub of water that was leftover from baths....a little before midnight, who in their right mind would leave a bathtub of water like this...of course the sitter may not of been in her right mind....I guess....

3.... and well, the toddler was just staying with family, it wasn't his/her parents...the two weren't siblings..
the five year old may have seen the toddler more as an invader, a threat.....something that was keeping her awake at night... it's a five year old, who knows!!! maybe she really liked the babysitter and is covering up for her!!!

all in all someone should be charged with neglectful homicide, and the five year old is just as much a victim as the toddler.....some one should have been more careful and not left a bath tub full of water, maybe not of left them in the charge of someone who was incapable of taking care of them.... someone should have been a little more sensitive to the five year olds feelings, since I imagine if there was enough irritation toward the toddler, well, there were clues to this fact before this probably??

www.wdbj7.com...

reply to post by dawnstar


The story never said the babysitter was handicapped and if she was than the parents are solely responsible for hiring an unfit person to tend to their children. But I think it is a possibility that the babysitter had a hand in the death, accidentally of course.

She could have left the toddler in a 1 foot high water while running to get a towel or something and didn't turn off the water. When she returned the water could have been too high for any toddler to escape, and the babysitter panicking she could have blamed the 5 year old.

That is my thinking because I just can't fathom a 5 year old grabbing a little toddler, filling up the bath and just tossing him in there. It is a possibility that because the toddler was crying she wanted to put him in the water to calm him down with no intention of drowning him.

But I can't really come to a conclusion unless you know what the toddler was wearing during the incident. If fully clothed than you know that it very well may have been the child. Children are impatient when it comes to taking off clothing and putting them on, so she would have just tossed the toddler in fully clothed. If naked than the babysitter could have been giving a bath and the toddler drowned by accident.

Tragic!

reply to post by Equinox99


www.wdbj7.com... thats the source of the mentaly challenged kid part

secondly the baby who drowned was in fact not the child of the ones whos house it died in (it was some relitives kid) so the kids were also not directly related nor the parents who hired the baby sitter i dont think even the parents have been interviewed so we dont even know how functional they are as paretns in general

and finaly the kid will get therapy but i dobut jail time unless shes actualy a little sociopath but id dobut that

and in relation to the bath part who ever had given said dead child a bath earlyer had left water in the tub with out draining it and thats how the little girl got access to the tub and the water to put it under the water and drown it so yeah thats what suposedly went down i guess we will have to wait on word of the therapists or the courts and even then i dobut we will get any more info on the child unless she is convicted

reply to post by KilrathiLG


My apologies, thanks for the link. I hadn't read that part but that changes everything.

Now this shifts from the babysitter to the parents who hired the babysitter. You should always know who your hiring and especially when dealing with children! You don't hire someone who is mentally unfit to take care of very little children.

Thanks for the link!

reply to post by Equinox99


I knew at 5 not to do that to another person.......

reply to post by Equinox99


A 5 year old can't be tried for murder, I'm sorry, they just can't.
The babysitter (a lousy one at that, might as well call her a babysleeper...), is at fault here.

They should probably give the 5 year old some sort of therapy, especially if she realizes what she did and it bothers her later (I'm sure it would bother anyone).

So disturbing.

i dont know if you can try a mentaly disatvantaged person for murder negligence maby but it seems they wont try the kid and arent trying the babysitter and besides how would a mentaly challenged person do in jail anyways let alone with fines to pay back so it seems that other then therapy there will be no "justice" in this case just tradegy and hopefully people learning from there mistakes

There seems to be several important details that many within this thread may not be aware of.
Such as:

5 children in the house

The toddler and the 5 yr. old, were cousins.

Toddler had been staying there for the last few weeks

Toddler's father was on his way to pick up his son, and take him home

Happened late in the evening (helps explain why the 16 yr. old was tired)

The 16 yr. old did fall asleep, but she did not fall asleep while the children were in the tub

The 16 yr. old had apparently been diagnosed as mentally disabled, prior to this.

The 5 yr. old allegedly put the toddler into the tub, for the sole reason of stopping the crying.

Police originally ruled the death an accident, but it turned into a potential homicide investigation after the 5-year-old told social workers that she held 18-month-old Johnson under water to stop his crying.

"She said she got angry because he would not stop crying and she held him under the water until he stopped crying," Snapp said.

[color=ECE5B6]She told social workers that she dragged Johnson into the tub, still full of water from when the children took baths earlier that evening, police said.

ABC News

Police were called to the drowning just before midnight Friday, when the adults returned home and found the boy dead.

Police said Johnson lived in the St. Louis area but had been cared for by relatives in Kansas City for several weeks.

An adult left the children in the care of the teenager in order to travel to a bus station to pick up a relative who had come to take Johnson back to St. Louis.

ABC News

[color=ECE5B6]had been left in the care of a mentally disabled 16-year-old, along with 2 other children.

The adults in the home had gone to the bus-stop to pick up the drowned toddler's parents,

All Voices

Investigators learned through interviews that a 5-year-old girl in the house got irritated with [color=ECE5B6]her young cousin, Snapp said.

"She said she got angry because he would not stop crying and she held him under the water in a bathtub until he stopped crying," Snapp said.

The tub had not been emptied after the youngsters took a bath earlier in the evening.

Snapp said a decision on to handle the case will be left up to prosecutors after the medical examiner's report is released.

Police say they are also looking into other aspects of the case, including the welfare of other children in the home and the decision to leave the children alone.

KTLA

My opinion is that IF anyone should be charged with negligent homicide, then it should be the adults, and not the 16 yr. old.


P.S. To those of you who have stated that a 5 yr. old is not capable of understanding death, you are wrong. I am sure that most 5 yr. olds do not fully comprehend death, but not all. I can easily remember the exact situation that I was in, when I was 4 or 5, and realized that EVERYONE dies, including myself.

Originally posted by Iamonlyhuman
There is absolutely no way this 5 year old will be charged with murder. There is absolutely no way this 5 year old will ever go to trial. Can you imagine a murder trial with a jury of her peers in attendance?

This story really is tragic but that 5 year old did not understand death & dying, nor did she understand what she was doing. She simply just wanted him to stop crying.

The title of the news story is just sensationalism to get people to read it.

edit on 10/6/2011 by Iamonlyhuman because: (no reason given)

Some people are born evil.....I think she knew what she was doing.......Ted Bundy when he was 3 used to put knives around sleeping peoples heads.

reply to post by Iamonlyhuman


Notwithstanding, the police spokesman is a complete moron for insinuating such a possibility.

Like someone else said....maybe I too need a break from ATS.

reply to post by marg6043

Originally posted by marg6043
The only one here to be charge with "involuntary murder is the adult that was in the house at the time that the child was left along in the bathtub with the toddler.

Exactly.


reply to post by caladonea

Originally posted by caladonea
Some people are born evil.....I think she knew what she was doing.......

Speechless.

Maybe you should take a breather too.

reply to post by BrokenCircles

If those are the facts, than I concur. Who leaves kids/babies with mentally handicapped people? I had an aunt that was retarded, who was great holding me and my sisters as babies. My parents nor grandparents would even consider leaving us alone with her as a babysitter.....