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UK Admits Plans to Inject Aerosols into Stratosphere

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posted on Jun, 11 2011 @ 11:51 PM
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Originally posted by bsbray11

Originally posted by Phage

And what's to stop people from going in and all claiming to have experienced something, or nothing for that matter, regardless of their actual experiences?

Nothing at all, you're right.It would probably be a good idea to use people who claim to be sensitive to orgone. That would tend to keep the pranksters away.


Well I have to admit Phage, your agreeing with me, immediately followed by a bunch of vitriolic sarcasm, certainly proves your point.


He was entirely serious. And correct.

ETA: and by "serious", I mean not vitriolic, and not sarcastic. It actually would be a good idea to use people who claimed to be sensitive.

The point is that it's a valid and simple experiment, why has nothing like that been done. If it were done, it would certainly make me interested in the theory.
edit on 11-6-2011 by Uncinus because: (no reason given)




posted on Jun, 11 2011 @ 11:55 PM
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Originally posted by Uncinus
He was entirely serious. And correct.


He was entirely correct in agreeing with me?

Congratulations, Uncinus, you have become so convoluted in this discussion that you just admitted my point via Phage's own admission, apparently without even being aware of it.


Star for you.



Here's Phages response to me again before you decide to edit it out and save yourself embarrassment:


Originally posted by Phage

Originally posted by bsbray11
And what's to stop people from going in and all claiming to have experienced something, or nothing for that matter, regardless of their actual experiences?

Nothing at all, you're right.It would probably be a good idea to use people who claim to be sensitive to orgone. That would tend to keep the pranksters away.



Obviously such an anecdotal test would not be scientific in the least if it would be so easily susceptible to manipulation on behalf of the participants. This is what Phage was agreeing with, though yes, he did immediately follow this admission with a bunch of vitriolic sarcasm typical of him.
edit on 11-6-2011 by bsbray11 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 11 2011 @ 11:58 PM
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reply to post by bsbray11
 


Sarcasm, vitriol? I don't think so. I think that's been your bailiwick.

Brilliant way to start off your trolling, Phage


But of course don't let me stand in the way of your assumptions that this isn't happening. You could go up in a plane with the guy dumping the crap yourself and still be demanding proof.


Exactly, these trolls are just taking the government at face value and pretending that this is somehow logical.



posted on Jun, 11 2011 @ 11:59 PM
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Originally posted by bsbray11
He was entirely correct in agreeing with me?


Yes he was. Do you understand WHY he was correct?



posted on Jun, 12 2011 @ 12:00 AM
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reply to post by Phage
 


Right, well rather than getting into a mud-slinging contest now I'm just going to re-iterate the point that we just concluded, that an experiment based solely on anecdotes from the participants is susceptible to manipulation and is not a rigorous form of proof anyway.

I have nowhere claimed to have scientific proof that orgone works.

But neither has it been excluded, and this includes by the same anecdote-based experiments suggested on the previous page by the troll gang, because it would be so susceptible to manipulation.




Originally posted by Uncinus
Yes he was. Do you understand WHY he was correct?


Because you are both always right about everything you say.... period?

edit on 12-6-2011 by bsbray11 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 12 2011 @ 12:01 AM
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reply to post by bsbray11
 

A properly designed experiment removes the opportunity for manipulation. There has been no properly designed experiment conducted for "orgone".

edit on 6/12/2011 by Phage because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 12 2011 @ 12:03 AM
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Originally posted by bsbray11
reply to post by Phage
 


Right, well rather than getting into a mud-slinging contest now I'm just going to re-iterate the point that we just concluded, that an experiment based solely on anecdotes from the participants is susceptible to manipulation and is not a rigorous form of proof anyway.


It could be sabotaged by the test subjects to return random results, however it could not be manipulated by the test subjects to show that orgone worked. Hence if the results indicated orgone worked, then that would be very good evidence.

And it's super easy to do. So why has nobody done it?



posted on Jun, 12 2011 @ 12:04 AM
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Originally posted by Phage
A properly designed experiment removes the opportunity for manipulation.


Well let me know when you've finally figured one out.


Then the next stage would be someone going out and actually performing it.

"Why hasn't it been done yet?" is the kind of rhetorical question I'll answer when you're able to show me what proof the FDA had to justify destroying all of Reich's machines and burning all of his books in the first place. I imagine it would be difficult for Tesla to have proved many of his inventions too if the government were constantly storming in to destroy them and burn all of his literature. Coincidentally much of his work was also seized by the government at the end of his life and has never seen the light of day.



Originally posted by Uncinus
It could be sabotaged by the test subjects to return random results, however it could not be manipulated by the test subjects to show that orgone worked.


How in the hell do you figure that? If people could lie and say they didn't feel anything, then why couldn't they lie and say they did?
edit on 12-6-2011 by bsbray11 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 12 2011 @ 12:09 AM
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Originally posted by bsbray11

Originally posted by Phage
A properly designed experiment removes the opportunity for manipulation.


Well let me know when you've finally figured one out.



I did:


All the accumulator is is a box where you sit in, and you feel funny, then neutral, then sweaty. It would be trivial to make two identical boxes, one of which was "grounded" so the orgone bled away (or deactivated in some way). Then get 20 people, have them randomly sit in one box then the other, and then document what effects they report.


That's really all you need. You can improve on that design by having all the participants be people who want to prove orgone works, and having a neutral examiner. But really that's all you need.



posted on Jun, 12 2011 @ 12:10 AM
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Originally posted by bsbray11

Originally posted by Uncinus
It could be sabotaged by the test subjects to return random results, however it could not be manipulated by the test subjects to show that orgone worked.


How in the hell do you figure that? If people could lie and say they didn't feel anything, then why couldn't they lie and say they did?


They don't know which box is the real one. So they can't fake a false positive.



posted on Jun, 12 2011 @ 12:13 AM
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Originally posted by Uncinus

Originally posted by bsbray11

Originally posted by Phage
A properly designed experiment removes the opportunity for manipulation.


Well let me know when you've finally figured one out.



I did:


Sorry boss but Phage just agreed with me, and you immediately agreed with him, that the methodology you describe here is susceptible to intentional manipulation by the participants and thus is not a scientifically rigorous method.

This must be a new low for you on this thread, agreeing with Phage just for the hell of it without even realizing that he just killed your own point by agreeing with me.



Originally posted by Uncinus
They don't know which box is the real one. So they can't fake a false positive.


Then you would inevitably call foul for some other reason, like they could peak through the slits in the box or something. Come on man, you know how you are.

edit on 12-6-2011 by bsbray11 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 12 2011 @ 12:17 AM
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reply to post by bsbray11
 


The only manipulation they could do is create a negative by randomizing their results.

You can eliminate that by choosing believer participants, as you can't fake a positive.

And regardless of the participants actions, a positive result would be significant.

So why has nobody done it? 80 years? Not even this trivial demonstration?



posted on Jun, 12 2011 @ 12:17 AM
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reply to post by bsbray11
 

As Uncinus said, the experiment could be sabotaged by subjects intentionally giving random reports. But a positive finding could not be faked. As I said, by using subjects who desired to prove the existence of orgone (you'd be able to find plenty) you would eliminate sabotage.

Actually, it would of course be better to use subjects who had no idea what the experiment was about. Should have realized that before. It's been a while.

It seems like you really don't understand scientific method and the logic behind it.


edit on 6/12/2011 by Phage because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 12 2011 @ 12:19 AM
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reply to post by Uncinus
 


Sure, and why don't we make a similar experiment for electricity too while we're at it?

We'll put a cell phone in one box, and another will be empty. You have to pick which box has the cell phone in it just by feeling the electricity.

If you can't feel the electricity, and choose the correct box enough times to defy probability, then electricity doesn't exist! You've really got a genius methodology there for proving a new force of nature, huh?



posted on Jun, 12 2011 @ 12:21 AM
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Originally posted by Phage
Actually, it would of course be better to use subjects who had no idea what the experiment was about. Should have realized that before. It's been a while.

It seems like you really don't understand scientific method and the logic behind it.


It seems you resort to insulting my intelligence every time you have nothing more mature to add to the discussion.

What do you think this experiment would prove exactly? Whether or not people are able to feel orgone with their hands and immediately identify it? Nice try but that's a straw-man and has nothing to do with anything I've claimed here, or Reich for that matter.
edit on 12-6-2011 by bsbray11 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 12 2011 @ 12:27 AM
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Originally posted by bsbray11
What do you think this experiment would prove exactly? Whether or not people are able to feel orgone with their hands and immediately identify it? Nice try but that's a straw-man and has nothing to do with anything I've claimed here, or Reich for that matter.


The experiment tests the actual claimed effects of an orgone accumulator. If it works, then it will prove that those effects exist.

ETA: Original accumulator plans, with effects listed:

www.orgone.org...

edit on 12-6-2011 by Uncinus because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 12 2011 @ 12:31 AM
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Originally posted by Uncinus
The experiment tests the actual claimed effects of an orgone accumulator. If it works, then it will prove that those effects exist.


Most treatments given by modern doctors today wouldn't even meet the standards you arbitrarily set here, of the patient being able to immediately feel the effects of whatever is being administered. Nor did Reich himself ever suggest that this was any sort of stand-alone treatment for anything. Again you are creating straw-men and talking out of your ass.

Do you have any plans to return to the OP any time soon, btw?



Originally posted by Uncinus
ETA: Original accumulator plans, with effects listed:


And what do you know, these are the same effects that Einstein recreated but were then immediately explained away by this-and-that. So why are you asking for those specific effects to be reproduced when you already know you are going to dismiss them out of hand as having anything to do with orgone whether they are produced or not?
edit on 12-6-2011 by bsbray11 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 12 2011 @ 12:36 AM
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Originally posted by bsbray11

Originally posted by Uncinus
The experiment tests the actual claimed effects of an orgone accumulator. If it works, then it will prove that those effects exist.


Most treatments given by modern doctors today wouldn't even meet the standards you arbitrarily set here, of the patient being able to immediately feel the effects of whatever is being administered. Nor did Reich himself ever suggest that this was any sort of stand-alone treatment for anything. Again you are creating straw-men and talking out of your ass.


Reich quite clearly describes the effects (see image above, highlighted in yellow). The experiment tests if those effects exist.



posted on Jun, 12 2011 @ 12:44 AM
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Originally posted by Uncinus
Reich quite clearly describes the effects (see image above, highlighted in yellow). The experiment tests if those effects exist.


So, to ask again, since you must have missed it...


And what do you know, these are the same effects that Einstein recreated but were then immediately explained away by this-and-that. So why are you asking for those specific effects to be reproduced when you already know you are going to dismiss them out of hand as having anything to do with orgone whether they are produced or not?



posted on Jun, 12 2011 @ 12:51 AM
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reply to post by bsbray11
 


Einstein only tested temperature, in a single accumulator, with no humans. This is is much more comprehensive and definitive test.



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