Why a Singler Payer System Will Be a Failure: healthcare and Big Oil

Originally posted by Maslo
Whats wrong with single payer system? We have single payer system here, and its working well. Its the most logical form of healthcare possible.
Seems like you want mutually impossible thing Neo - to provide quality healthcare for those poor who cant afford it, without taking money from others.

- stealing money through taxes to pay for poor peoples healthcare
- poor people dying from treateble ilnesses

Pick lesser evil, Neo. There is simply no third option.

Hi, Maslo, well I was using our single payer SS system as a model, since it's already in place and if you work, you get it automatically taken out of your paycheck. There has been discourse over the SS (Social Security-read govt subsidized pension) becoming bankrupt to the point of disaster and no one seems to know what to do about it. My question was, knowing this tendency of politicians to raid a system which is already based on a ponzi scheme, why would anyone in their right mind want to do that for health care too, and completely bankrupt the whole country in addition, as that is what it would do, in spite of the liberal rhetoric.

Also, with the advent of the fall of the Berlin Wall, and you have nationalized health care, you have not come out of communism yet? It's like sorta communism but with some cronyism mixed in?

reply to post by neo96


I'm with you on Michael Moore. He is a neo progressive who struck it rich while promoting Cuban Communism. Disgustingly hypocritical. Not to mention that only the wealthy cronies and tourists in Cuba go to the nice hospitals, while the ordinary folk have to bring their own linens to clinics with the most filthy, degrading conditions. I read in the last couple years that Cuba had a problem with a toilet paper shortage. No toilet paper on the shelves. This is the cadillac health care Moore pretends doesn't exist. It wasn't in his film.

reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus


Well the healthcare is not nationalized, thats not what universal healthcare is. We have private hospitals, we have private insurance companies etc.. But we also have some state run cheap hospitals and one state run insurance company subsidized from taxes as alternative that automatically insurers everyone who is unable to pay for insurance on a free market. Its a mixed public-private system.

And its called social democracy, not cryonism-communism.

To see that most posters are for universal health care and I've saw someone talking about removing private energy for federal...wow, seriously, i almost had a tear to my eye :')

Usually all i see on ATS is people saying : It's my money!!

It's great to see good people that care for one another! ^_^

reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus


Ask yourself why Cuba suffers. Maybe it's because of the US embargo on trade and their isolation due to the west's hostile attitude towards governments that actually represent their people?

The fact that Cuban life expectancy is the same as the US and that it has a lower infant mortality rate speaks volumes about the US (the so-called richest country in the world). Cuba is a poor, third world country and the people there are just as healthy as America and have a universal health care system which doesn't deny treatment. That is the biggest slap in the face for America, you spend more than any other nation on your healthcare yet an economically isolated third world socialist country is just as healthy.

I saw an interview a while back with Che Guevara's daughter who was talking about the Cubans being unable to provide medicine to their people because the US government refused to allow companies to sell it to them, yet still they manage to take care of their people without prejudice.

Originally posted by neo96
no kidding it is the step that will lead to it destroying the current system so that it will be needed.

the question i want to be answered in this thread:

would you want a single entity( oil company) setting the price of gasoline in this country ??

yes or no ?


they use to call that a monopoly guess its lost its meaning.

edit on 10-6-2011 by neo96 because: (no reason given)

Techically, one company does set the price and it is called OPEC

Healthcare in the USA is broken because it is a For Profit enterprise. Profit is made all the way up the chain. Pharmaceutical companies cream off even more profits. How can anyone say that the system works when millions of people can't afford it? And when many millions more can't get insurance coverage due to pre-existing coverage? Americans with those golden policies fail to understand that they are only one major accident or disease away from losing their precious policy. Basic healthcare should be not for profit. Period. If you want elective surgeries and treatment, then this should be available to you for profit. Greedy corporations and a crooked government should NOT be deciding our future.

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox

Originally posted by neo96
So i am sitting here thinking to myself of the stupidity of a single payer system for healthcare.

Does that explain the noise? I thought that was the wind howling through an empty cave!

Obama Care aka the care act

The care act is actually something you would probably support - it's an effort to federally deregulate alcohol, and place that regulation in states' hands (HR 1161). You want the Affordable Care Act. Moving on.

is exactly designed to do one thing to make healthcare so expensive and to break the system that the all knowing all powerful all benevolent entity known as the federal government come to the rescue to a problem for which it already created.

Know what the irony is? Corporations doing this is exactly why there needed to be such federal action.

Private Healthcare is the best in this country and no one can deny that fact for we the people altho one could argue our us congressmans healthcare is substantial better than private care.

Private health care is currently hte only health care in this country, barring the VA. Even congresspeople don't get state care - they simply have their private care covered by federal monies. And the VA isn't doing too hot because its funding keeps getting cut

See, here's the trick.
1) Corporations want to buy out hte public sector. They hire lobbyists to convince politicians that hte public system "doesn't work"
2) Those politicians, not wanting to spend money on stuff that doesn't work, vote to cut funding for the public systems
3) The system in question, lacking money to cover its needs, begins to fail
4) Voters like you, having about all the brains of your average lizard, see the failing system and demand that it be thrown away, rather than re-funded.
5) Politicians sell the system to private corporations at a loss (that is, at great profit for the corporations).
6) Quality does not improve, user costs go up, but hey, it's now the only game in town.

private healthcare works for the simply fact that is is profit driven and it makes it money counting on the health of younger people who can goes 10 or 20 years without using it and they finance those who do use it and the biggest reason it works it people pay for it so what i will call it is you pay for it care.

The profit motive is actually exactly WHY privatized health care doesn't work.

See, there's more money to be made in substandard care, medicines that treat symptoms rather than cure diseases, and denying insurance claims, than there is to be had in keeping the customer healthy, addressing the disease when needed, and honoring your insurance claims.

A corporation is beholden to the bottom line, not the well-being of its customers, as I'm sure you understand. When translated into the arena of health care, this is an enormous problem.

medicare is designed for those disabled and older people who do use their care on a daily basis which has strict government guidelines and rules and regulations and is non profit and they also pay for it with a clear difference between private care aka you pay for it care is that there is everyone using it unlike the period of time that most people do not use private healthcare.

Clearly punctuation is a socialist plot that shell not be tolerated.

medicaid is designed for those who cant afford healthcare and receive substantial less quality care than private healthcare and somewhat on par with medicare with exception those receiving it isnt paying for it those other people are.

Yup, substandard care is what happens when a program like this is regularly underfunded.

So what we have here is:

private healthcare
medicare
medicaid

then comes along obama and his wonderful wisdom of obama care making people in the first time in this nations history buy a good or service.

many people who couldnt afford healthcare are now mandated to buy something they couldnt afford to buy in the first place so what will end up happening are two things.

No they're not. I encourage you to read the actual law, rather than simply what someone else tells you about it. There is no mandate to purchase insurance; however, if you do not purchase private insurance, you will be given a few for your automatic coverage under an applicable government insurance program.

While i myself find this provision questionable (it's basically a giveaway to private insurers who are already ripping off their clients) it's not actually what you're saying it is.

people will be footing the bill agian for more than they previously were and the skyrocketing cost of healthcare that was already skyrocketing.

The skyrocketing costs of health care are due to extensive privatization. Remember, profits to be made? And since health care really isn't a competitive market (what, are you going to shop around for hte best emergency room fees?) there's no adequate "check" for the price gouging on the market, nor is there actual incentive for providers to undercut one another; it's a situation of collusion and price fixing.

for those who think its a great thing think agian obama care is designed to crash the system it will kill off competition to the point that something will have to be done "never letting a crisis" go to waste obama and the powers that be will impliment a single payer system.

Good. A system where everyone pays in a small amount to cover those who need it, is a better and more sustainable system than one where those who need it are obligated to spend themselves flat broke.

now for the big oil part

As it stands right now there are only a handful of oil companies competing to bring oil to the market exactly like
only a few companies offering healthcare.

we see the rising cost of both products and services reaching alarming proportions and both are squeezing americans like never before.

so people would you support a single payer big oil system? if not why sould you support a single healthcare option.

Actually yes, if what you're asking is would I support a nationalization of the United States' energy production industries. Absolutely I would support this. For exactly the reason you offered; private companies have a vested interest in reducing supply while increasing prices. They have the ability to bottleneck, and doing so gives them enormous profits; this gives them all the reason in the world to throttle supply against demand.

A nationalized system has no such incentive, as its obligation is not to the bottom line or profit. You may express doubt that such a system is obligated to the needs of the populace, but it's closer to the truth than saying it's obligated to profit.

there is no competition for either market more people competing to bring those goods and services to market would drastically reduce cost to us.

There already is no competition. It's a market defined by collusion and monopolization. When attatched to a profit motive, this is a killer situation.

I suppose an alternative to nationalization would be massive break-ups of the oil comoanies and higher regulations that prevent them from buying each other up again. Thirty companies would probably compete better than four, and that might work out. But curently, I think nationalization would be the better ticket.

the insanity in this country must stop.

I agree, the sooner we stop this insane drive towards privatization of everything under hte sun, the better.

thoughts? and please people its not the greed of big insurance its the greed of big goverment control that has created this situtation big government has squeezed the little guy out of both areas.

You really shouldn't talk about stuff you know nothing about.

So, let me get this straight, you think that the reason the Government wants to socialize health care is becuase out of the kindness of their own hearts, they want to do the right thing, for us, the American people? I would like to see the eveidence you have where you honestly believe the FED has America in the best interest.

They dont want a private company(Insurance) to price gouge, to just treat the symptoms and not the cause. You honestly think the Federal Government is doing this, not as their own money grab on the entire matter?

At the end of the day, the system of healthcare is garbage, it needs to change, but the Government cant get anything right, so what makes you think this is going to be something they get right?

reply to post by armtx


Because the government don't run it. They just pay for it. The doctors are the same, the nurses are the same, the medicines and the treatments are the same. The only difference is they're payed via taxes instead of straight out of your pocket.

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
reply to post by neo96

 

I'm with you on Michael Moore. He is a neo progressive who struck it rich while promoting Cuban Communism. Disgustingly hypocritical. Not to mention that only the wealthy cronies and tourists in Cuba go to the nice hospitals, while the ordinary folk have to bring their own linens to clinics with the most filthy, degrading conditions. I read in the last couple years that Cuba had a problem with a toilet paper shortage. No toilet paper on the shelves. This is the cadillac health care Moore pretends doesn't exist. It wasn't in his film.

edit on 10-6-2011 by ThirdEyeofHorus because: (no reason given)

I wonder what you think about the many Americans here who are diagnosed with (????) who are uninsured, critically ill, unable to work and only holding several thousand dollars in savings, or less?

Is it more important to preserve the status quo or tradition, than it is to recognize that there are states
worth of people who are scaling the edge? I want to understand how you and other convert something that is a very Serious and complicated problem here, into something that is "impossible" to fix or address?
I don't think cost should dictate EVERYTHING in America, because it costs, we have to look the
other way, or turn a cold heart... I think you you were surrounded by ALL the people in this situation,
you would be a lot more conflicted. I assume you are not a monster, but I know you have not be around
many people on the margins of life, when people are dying or being bankrupted, the crux of this argument
looks very small and petty.

Originally posted by lifeissacred
reply to post by armtx

 

Because the government don't run it. They just pay for it. The doctors are the same, the nurses are the same, the medicines and the treatments are the same. The only difference is they're payed via taxes instead of straight out of your pocket.

So who pays for private insurance, private individuals right? So who is going to pay for the Goverment version of healthcare...Im guessing the private individuals through taxation, right?

So the system is going to stay EXACTLY the same, but the government is going to run it instead. So, instead of the Private Sector (insurance) controlling the prices, the Government is going to control which means they will raise the amount we pay or dont pay, the same way the insurance companies do.

I fail to see how the GOV is going to do anything different than the Insurance companies are already doing. Not to mention the GOV has proved to us that they will steal from one fund to pay for yet another entilement...Social Security as the easiest model for how this is going to play out.

The Gov is in bed with the FDA, USDA, USGA and big pharm. In fact, most of those admins write their own policy for laws...what makes you think the government is going to change anything to help the people.

Your health is your responsibilty, not mine. I eat right and take care of myself, the rest of you lazy people eating McDonalds, dont deserve my entitlement money.

100 years ago, people died and there was nothing we could do about it. 100 years later we can keep people sick for the majority of their lives and get away with it and people honestly still think the Government has your best interest at heart...unreal!

reply to post by Janky Red


I want to agree with you on this one, but it gets down to the simple fact that we all die, we all get sick and until big pharm and medical professionals step up to the plate and start curing people for the sake of humanity and just not keep them alive, this will never change my mind that Americans, have a sense of entitlement on healthcare.

At the end of the day, people abuse their bodies with the garbage they put in it and expect ME, the taxpayer to take care of them after they spent decades doing the wrong thing.

I know it is cold and heartless, but people dont deserve free health care, because at the end of the day, NOTHING IS FREE, not even our FREEDOM. Someone has to pay for it and I dont want to.

It all comes with a cost and to be honest, Im not willing to foot the bill. If you are willing to foot the bill than do it out of the generosity of your own heart, that is what I do every year with my tax return, I donate it to our local childrens hospital...maybe they will appreciate the fact that someone is giving them chance to do the right things, because the entitled majority in this country, dont appreciate themselves enough to do the right thing.

This whole thing reeks of what has got us into the problems that we are in and that is people living way outside of their means, yet expecting others to foot the bill when they cant. Where is my choice? Where does the line get drawn on who makes it and who doesnt?

Originally posted by armtx
reply to post by Janky Red

 

I want to agree with you on this one, but it gets down to the simple fact that we all die, we all get sick and until big pharm and medical professionals step up to the plate and start curing people for the sake of humanity and just not keep them alive, this will never change my mind that Americans, have a sense of entitlement on healthcare.

At the end of the day, people abuse their bodies with the garbage they put in it and expect ME, the taxpayer to take care of them after they spent decades doing the wrong thing.

I know how think and feel, I really think it is wrong... We built this whole place to take control of our
eviroment,healthcare is a luxury becaue it is what we have been conditioned to think...Yes everyone
dies, I can't tell you how many people say this, I don't get it though, it is the poorest argument of
all social and political arguments. One could better apply the same standard to murder or even taxes
with just as much validity. If ALL americans are paying for it, you are completely included, think
about toilets in the public parks and roads they expect YOU to pay, but I doubt you would be here sit here
and type, "well, we all crap our pants sometimes". I am right on this, go to an emergency room at a county hospital and talk to those people, there is no way around the biology of humanity,just because everyone
dies, does not mean people should die due to money, that is a human imposition, not a real barrier.

reply to post by neo96


As usual, it seems as though you are attempting to compare apples with oranges. "Healthcare" and "Healthcare Insurance Providers," are two completely different things.

The quality of "Healthcare" is not dependent on "Who" is paying the bill, only that the bill gets paid. On the other hand, the cost of providing that Healthcare is definitely impacted by the fact that "For Profit" private insurers, by their very nature, must add their profit margin to the actual cost of healthcare delivery. Not to mention the fact that they are notorious for denying claims and declaring people to be uninsurable due to pre-existing conditions.

I believe it's the government's job to provide to the american people, those services that should not be done on a "For Profit" basis. Services like police protection, fire fighting services, (both of which I have never personally needed even though I've been paying for them my entire adult life.) public education, healthcare and national defense, as well as many other social services that I will not mention.

Regarding your question on whether or not I would support a nationalized oil industry, I would answer a resounding YES! If we drilled for the oil that already belongs to us on a not for profit basis, the price for our oil could only go down. How much would gasoline cost if the big oil companies were not taking billions in profits from oil that already belongs to the american people?

My son who is in the navy is currently in a country the middle east, (I'm not allowed to say where) that has a nationalized energy policy and gasoline there is 40 cents per gallon. Go figure.

As usual Neo, your opinion seems to be the least respected among all those posted in your own thread. Maybe, just maybe, you should reconsider your position.

I find it sadly hilarious that Americans are so stupid they can't structure a humane healthcare system, instead opting for a profit-based system where a completely superfluous middle man extracts a massive percentage of the money.

I find it sadly hilarious that of all "advanced" nations, only the U.S. is so inept it can manage to spend 2x per capita on healthcare to achieve a poor result.

I find it sadly hilarious that the rest of the civilized world has some measure of universal care and they do it at much less cost. Maybe they are smart enough to realize the people are the most important resource in any nation.

And I find it just sad that Americans have such foul disregard for the fellow Americans. We really are a vicious society, proven also by our war mongering ways.

The U.S. needs to go the way of the dodo bird. We are the most dangerous nation on earth, to ourselves and others.

reply to post by armtx


It's funded via taxes, which means everyone contributes to the treatment of others. The people foot the bill of those who need healthcare. Everyone pays, in return everyone recieves coverage.

It's different from private insurance because it doesn't operate for profit, they have nothing to gain from denying coverage (infact they can't deny coverage) and then the medicine which people pay for is also subsidised which means people never pay more than £7 per prescription and if they cannot afford that they don't pay at all. It's a genuine service and not a profit making scheme.

I wouldn't trade the NHS for a privatised system ever, I can't think of anyone in Britain who actually envies private healthcare of the USA, it's looked at with more fear and disdain than you Americans look at national healthcare because it's a fundamentally inhumane system.

wow, what a thread full of idealists!

nevermind the fact that America is much larger and diverse then these other countries...
nevermind the FACT that innovation, incentive, and technology will decrease...
nevermind the fact that it's not really that difficult to find a job which will provide you with health care...
nevermind the fact that so many foreigners come HERE to have their procedures done...
nevermind the fact that in America it will eventually lead to rationing...
nevermind the fact that millions of people in america without health care are just flat out lazy and bred to be dependent...
nevermind the fact that other than the military, the government runs nothing right...
nevermind the fact that the people who need health care the most will be the ones who don't get it...
nevermind the fact that there are tons of ways to revamp the current system in favor for a more effective free market solution...
nevermind the fact that you know what medications/treatments are best for you or your loved ones, instead of some bureaucrat sitting at some desk in washington...

silly idealists, redistribution of any kind will ultimately fail....unless you live in a small tribal village in the trees.

it's human nature, man is too flawed to effectively govern man, especially in a country as larger and diverse as America.

Stop begging

I guess the OP doesn't understand how an economic structure works in a country:

- Sick citizens are non-productive citizens.
- Non-productive citizens contribute nothing to the economy, thus they become a burden to said economy.
- A burden to said economy is nothing more than an "overhead" expense reducing the bottom line of the overall economy.
- The reduction of the bottom line of an overall economy becomes the burden of the taxpayer.

So... with that in mind, let's pull some numbers out of our butts for the sake of argument, shall we ?

Let's say a US citizen gets sick and it will cost them $50,000 to get better because their insurance doesn't cover it. That citizen must now borrow the monies, thus reducing their daily/monthly/annual consumer spending capabilities until that debt obligation is paid for in, say, 6 years of principle debt + accrued interest repayments... Do you see where this is going... ? Or do I need to spell out economy 101 for those that can't comprehend a domino effect ?

Now let's take a different scenario, shall we ?

Let's say a US citizen gets sick and their insurance does cover their illness, thus they have no need to take out a personal loan of $50,000. Does all the years of their paying insurance premiums add up to more than $50,000 ? Sometimes yes, sometimes no ? So where do you think the difference comes from ? Other people's paid premiums. Yes that's right, your neighbour is paying for your illness because you haven't paid enough in premiums to cover your current illness.

Now in order for a corporation (this insurance company) to stay afloat, they need to pocket some of those premiums in order to cover their own expenses and cost of operating a business, right ? Which of course leaves that much less of yours and your neighbour's premiums going into the healthcare kitty. So what's a company to do when annual costs and inflation keep increasing every year ? They increase premiums in order for neighbours to keep paying for each other's illnesses... Do you see where this is going ? Or do I need to spell out economy 101 yet some more ?

Call it premiums or call it taxes, either way you are paying for your neighbour's illnesses either directly through your own premiums, or indirectly through the cost of their burden on the economy.

Like it or lump it.

... Now I'd like to hear how the OP justifies the need to pay a middle man (that need-for-profit insurance company we've been talking about) to handle those services. Because in terms of an economic structure, the only ones benefitting "freely" from any of this is the middle man collecting money for essentially doing nothing but keeping some paperwork in a filing cabinet.

So...

Not only are you paying premiums for "your own" healthcare (cough laugh cough)... but you're also paying into the profitable operations and service distributions of a middle man... as well as all those other costs of burden on your country's overall economic stability.

This "me me me" mentality is a delusion and logical fallacy.
"You you you" are paying for everyone else whether "you you you" like it or not.

reply to post by f4rwest


Redistribution does none of those things you mentioned and the top healthcare systems in the world (Not America's by the way) are all 'socialist' healthcare systems. The last time the WHO ranked the healthcare systems from around the world the USA was ranked 36th (despite spending more on healthcare than any other country).

America does have some of the best available medical treatment in the world...........If you can pay the millions of dollars which the very best treatment costs.
free market solutions to the issue of healthcare are the ones which are idealist, since the ONLY motivation for a private business is profit. National healthcare systems are solely a public service and are motivated only by providing the care the patient needs, not by returning a profit. National healthcare plans have been proven time and time again to be the best system, the freemarket solution for complete health coverage has never existed.

Originally posted by Janky Red

Originally posted by armtx
reply to post by Janky Red

 

I want to agree with you on this one, but it gets down to the simple fact that we all die, we all get sick and until big pharm and medical professionals step up to the plate and start curing people for the sake of humanity and just not keep them alive, this will never change my mind that Americans, have a sense of entitlement on healthcare.

At the end of the day, people abuse their bodies with the garbage they put in it and expect ME, the taxpayer to take care of them after they spent decades doing the wrong thing.

I know how think and feel, I really think it is wrong... We built this whole place to take control of our
eviroment,healthcare is a luxury becaue it is what we have been conditioned to think...Yes everyone
dies, I can't tell you how many people say this, I don't get it though, it is the poorest argument of
all social and political arguments. One could better apply the same standard to murder or even taxes
with just as much validity. If ALL americans are paying for it, you are completely included, think
about toilets in the public parks and roads they expect YOU to pay, but I doubt you would be here sit here
and type, "well, we all crap our pants sometimes". I am right on this, go to an emergency room at a county hospital and talk to those people, there is no way around the biology of humanity,just because everyone
dies, does not mean people should die due to money, that is a human imposition, not a real barrier.

edit on 10-6-2011 by Janky Red because: (no reason given)

My point is simply this; is it my responsibilty as a human to take of my fellow man if he falls on hard times...ABSOLUTELY. However, it is not my responsibilty to take care of people who refuse to make the moral, socio-economical choice, to the wrong thing.

Our system is set up to allow people to make the wrong choice and get away with it time and time again, and yet, they expect me to do the RIGHT thing, and help them.

Parks and roads are infrastructure that I may not always use and may never see, but it affords me the choice to use them at any point.People are going to jump at the chance to get something for FREE, because that is how we are marketed to every day. 30 million illegal immigrants, who dont pay a single dime in taxes a year get free health care now because it is federal law that you can not refuse treatment. I know this because I was a nurse for almost a decade....the reason I got out, tired of watching a broken system that aloows people who dont care of themselves milk the system...it is disgusting

Im one of the few who has no issues paying taxes, within reason of course, but is it wrong for me to feel bitter that people who are using me for my good choices in life?

public healthcare is not a right, it is simply a way for the government to raise taxes and steal from yet another social program to hand out more entitlements. keep buying into the pitch, keep believing that it is a good thing, and you will get exactly what you want, the same sytem, that still doesnt work, witht he only difference being, you are forced to partake in it.