The Destruction of Human History....

Originally posted by Flavian

Do you believe some of the lost "Technology's" the ways our ancestors built certain structures, might have been housed in the Library of Alexandria ?

I always wondered what types of literature were housed there.....

Some surviving records do give clues as to the types of scrolls contained at the Library - works on geometry, construction, warfare, etc as well as the usual suspects (poetry, etc).

So yes, basically lots of "lost" knowledge.

Which was open to scholars for decades and centuries and which were used to write other materials.

You may wish to look at the Pinakes

Pinakes

Callimachus' system divided works into six genres and five sections of prose. These were rhetoric, law, epic, tragedy, comedy, lyric poetry, history, medicine, mathematics, natural science and miscellanies. Each category was alphabetized by author.

The Pinakes (Ancient Greek: Πίνακες tables, plural of πίναξ) was a bibliographic work composed by Callimachus that is popularly considered to be the first library catalog; its contents were based upon the holdings of the Library of Alexandria during Callimachus' tenure there during the third century BCE

Some of this lost material (a small portion of the poetry) may be found in the Villa of Papyri

Villa of Papyri

reply to post by Hanslune


Whilst i know it was studied by academics and other texts existed elsewhere, i firmly believe we must have lost knowledge at some point. The evidence for this being the complete regression in technologies following the fall of Rome. I have said it before but the only thing i can think of that would explain this would be the Huns and the destruction they wrought - nothing else really fits the bill unless anyone has any ideas?

Originally posted by Flavian
i firmly believe we must have lost knowledge at some point. The evidence for this being the complete regression in technologies following the fall of Rome. I have said it before but the only thing i can think of that would explain this would be the Huns and the destruction they wrought - nothing else really fits the bill unless anyone has any ideas?

It is entirely relative. The 'knowledge' was lost in Northern Europe with the closure of the trade routes which were controlled by Rome. However, just as with the fall of Greece, much of the knowledge did travel to and was preserved in the East, most notably in Persia. Persia for example took much of the architectural knowledge of Rome and developed it, and with architecture, naturally, mathematics and astronomy. So while Europe fell, for a time, into an intellectual void, the knowledge itself continued and flourished. With the onset of the middle-ages, and particularly with the crusader's incursions into the East, those pathways began to reopen and knowledge, and learning returned to Europe. And certainly by the 14th century, works, such as Vitruvius's 10 books of Architecture, were being translated and republished in Europe.

reply to post by Biliverdin


Good point and one i should have acknowledged before asking my question......also very big advances in the field of Medicine in Persia during this period.

No, as you say, the question revolves around Western and Northern Europe and the Med region. Can you think of any other reason for this loss of knowledge apart from the Huns? The reason i specify the Huns is purely because of the levels of destruction wrought - people, towns / cities / villages / scrolls, etc.

reply to post by Flavian


Damn it, I mistakenly replied to the other thread thinking it was this one, and then deleted the reply...could have saved myself some time...

The problem in Europe, by the time that the trade routes did reopen was Christianty, or more particularly the dual leadership of state and church of the Holy Roman Empire. Any learning, especially scientific, was by nature heretical, and therefore by necessity, practiced in secrecy. It wasn't until the Age of Enlightenment that avenues of scientific study came into the light in Europe, and then with the Deists, much was misinterpreted, and perhaps more damaging, was over romanticised.

As noted above knowledge in Europe was lost or scattered but the Persians, Indians, later the Arabs, and China just kept going - until they too faltered and Europe recovered

Originally posted by Hanslune
As noted above knowledge in Europe was lost or scattered but the Persians, Indians, later the Arabs, and China just kept going - until they too faltered and Europe recovered

But do we know why yet? Or do we (read as me!) just assume Huns, etc? This is one area i have actually struggled to find reading matter into, possibly unsurprisingly.

Originally posted by Flavian

Originally posted by Hanslune
As noted above knowledge in Europe was lost or scattered but the Persians, Indians, later the Arabs, and China just kept going - until they too faltered and Europe recovered

But do we know why yet? Or do we (read as me!) just assume Huns, etc? This is one area i have actually struggled to find reading matter into, possibly unsurprisingly.

Perhaps I'm missing the intent of your question, are you asking why the Huns or whomever destroyed 'knowledge'?

'Barbarians' have always destroyed that which is not valuable to them or which in being destroyed brings value to them; example, 'educated' Americans who destroy Indian burial grounds to steal the pots and gold ornaments. Religions destroy the relics and signs of other religions, ie 'knowledge' because they have decided that destroying it would be 'good'.

reply to post by Hanslune


No sorry, more what happened in this period? We went from knowing how to build stone aquaducts and buildings, etc to not having a clue for basically 700 years (give or take a little).

The reason i keep saying Huns is because there was order and technology (Romans, etc) then the Huns swept in and destroyed the Western Roman Empire and then........what? Maybe it wasn't the Huns destroying everything but there must have been something. It would appear that in Britain alone, by the 500's we had definitely lost the ability to repair stone bridges - they were patched with wood or abandoned and replacements built in wood downstream. Why? What happened?

It is just something that genuinely baffles me. I mean, say, for arguments sake, it was the Huns. They never got to Britain so surely we should still have kept knowledge of that stone working ability, either in written records or passed down. But we didn't, like much of Northern / Western Europe. This knowledge had to be regained.

Sorry for the poorly explained rant but as you can see, i have a question there but i am not articulating it very well.

Originally posted by Flavian
reply to post by Hanslune

 

No sorry, more what happened in this period? We went from knowing how to build stone aquaducts and buildings, etc to not having a clue for basically 700 years (give or take a little).

The reason i keep saying Huns is because there was order and technology (Romans, etc) then the Huns swept in and destroyed the Western Roman Empire and then........what? Maybe it wasn't the Huns destroying everything but there must have been something. It would appear that in Britain alone, by the 500's we had definitely lost the ability to repair stone bridges - they were patched with wood or abandoned and replacements built in wood downstream. Why? What happened?

It is just something that genuinely baffles me. I mean, say, for arguments sake, it was the Huns. They never got to Britain so surely we should still have kept knowledge of that stone working ability, either in written records or passed down. But we didn't, like much of Northern / Western Europe. This knowledge had to be regained.

Sorry for the poorly explained rant but as you can see, i have a question there but i am not articulating it very well.

They lost the technical skills but not entirely, in England and else where stone bridges and buildings were still being build (example Escomb church, clapper bridges) but the real problem was money, most places ran out of it when the Roman monetary system and trade failed.

The Barbarians destroyed the civil systems of government, taxation, trade and monetary - without which it's hard to get stuff done - it took the Europeans a long time to invent/reinvent these large structures

Exellent thread and intriguing subject .

Originally posted by Flavian
reply to post by Hanslune

 

No sorry, more what happened in this period? We went from knowing how to build stone aquaducts and buildings, etc to not having a clue for basically 700 years (give or take a little).

The reason i keep saying Huns is because there was order and technology (Romans, etc) then the Huns swept in and destroyed the Western Roman Empire and then........what? Maybe it wasn't the Huns destroying everything but there must have been something.

Roman Empire was a vast and an amazingly developed space. One of the factors that helped the economy (and all progress depends on a viable economy to implement interesting projects) was the security of travel. People say the word "globalization" like it's something new, guess what, it was a norm in the Roman empire. Goods and knowledge were transported over great distances, and the roads were secure. When this went, the level of the society development went down many notches.

reply to post by buddhasystem


Yeah, that makes total sense from a societal view to be honest. Actually rather embarrassed i hadn't considered it already in those terms!

I was more thinking of the lost skills, etc, but that has also already been answered for me.

An interesting page on Wikipedia: -- an ancient Roman bridge, original pillars still in good shape and still being used in nowadays Germany.

Some serious construction quality here...

Many Roman bridges are still in use

Long list of existing and in use Roman built bridges

There are about 900 the list above is truncated

Originally posted by Hanslune
Many Roman bridges are still in use

Long list of existing and in use Roman built bridges

There are about 900 the list above is truncated

OMG is about all I can say to that!

One may add that a lot of roads in Europe were originally built by Romans as well, although of course the vast majority have been re-paved many times over.

reply to post by buddhasystem


And really, it is only because of faster speeds that we have needed to even do that. The Roman system of building roads was so good they could have lasted for ever. With the odd repair to account for ice and flood damage (and seismic of course in some places). Vitruvius's guidelines, as long as they were followed, were the height of technological expertise. Most roads built today, with technologically newer materials, do not have the durability of Roman roads. Some things just can't be improved upon

Just to be the Devil's Advocate here, yeah, there has occasionally been knowledge lost either accidentally or on purpose throughout the ages, but I'm thinking that most of the best, really important stuff is usually squirreled away by people who see it coming and usually it turns up later. Another thing is that a lot of what has been lost would be endless self-promotional epic poems or stories about some long-lost god or hero or king, or about some ancient battle nobody really cares all that much about except as an academic interest or possibly to make a Hollywood movie about.

When was the last time most of us were really thrilled by a play by Euripides? Exactly. Don't tell me how much it's worth if you never experience it.

Every now and then the accumulated knowledge of mankind gets its garage cleaned out. It loses a lot of old junk, and paves the way for the creation of newer classics. These days we're being buried in information. A brilliant piece of literature is created every day by somebody, and ignored. The loss of old information is a natural and often positive event. Like orphaned children, there's no sense crying over the loss of something you never had.

reply to post by Biliverdin


I gave your post a star for clear mindedness, but I don't agree with you on principle.

I traveled in North Italy and I see that today's engineers did a much superior jobs in the same location. I'm just saying that well, as cool as it was, the Roman tech just can't be called the pinnacle of all.

As an aside, I visited the LHC tunnel. Never mind that the majority of the CERN employees are Italian, we did progress much much further beyond Rome.

Originally posted by Flavian
reply to post by Hanslune

 

No sorry, more what happened in this period? We went from knowing how to build stone aquaducts and buildings, etc to not having a clue for basically 700 years (give or take a little).

you have to remember that very few people really had the training or knowledge of how to build any of that stuff, it was mostly held by romans who guarded it jealously.

The reason i keep saying Huns is because there was order and technology (Romans, etc) then the Huns swept in and destroyed the Western Roman Empire and then........what? Maybe it wasn't the Huns destroying everything but there must have been something. It would appear that in Britain alone, by the 500's we had definitely lost the ability to repair stone bridges - they were patched with wood or abandoned and replacements built in wood downstream. Why? What happened?

the huns didn't destroy the roman empire, they contributed to the migration of many of the germanic tribes east, those tribes helped destroy the empire. the romans were their own undoing, being that their whole empire rested on conquering other peoples and living off their backs all the while taking their men as conscripts to fight romes' next target.
as i said the skills needed to build those roads may have existed in few hands and maybe in britain they all left when rome called them back to protect rome from the visigoths and vandals(didn't help them)

It is just something that genuinely baffles me. I mean, say, for arguments sake, it was the Huns. They never got to Britain so surely we should still have kept knowledge of that stone working ability, either in written records or passed down. But we didn't, like much of Northern / Western Europe. This knowledge had to be regained.

why would you think so? romans weren't exactly the most inclusive people, maybe there wasn't that many people who knew how, and rome took them all when it needed them.
after all it isn't like they could just mass manufacture the stones the way we could.

Sorry for the poorly explained rant but as you can see, i have a question there but i am not articulating it very well.

hate to say this but you are allowing your 21st century views to bleed into the 5th century here. lets be honest here, now adays building skills are a dime a dozen, and no one cares about who knows them. it may have been that the knowledge was not shared, and only known by a few people.

from my understanding, the officers were romans and their soldiers were conscripts from conquered countries. so more than likely only the officer knows how to build roads, since it was common for the roads to be build by conscripts.
being that the romans didn't think much of the conquered peoples, they no doubt never taught very many of them how to do anything but hold a sword by the non-sharp end.