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Originally posted by Hydroman
What one atheists does is his OWN doing.
(Maybe that's why we react the way we do when christians mess up, because they supposedly have this god helping them but act no better than anyone else)
If god's message is clear, why are there thousands of christian denominations?
The same can be said for anyone. When you hear of a muslim blowing himself up and killing multiple people, does it make you think that all muslims are bad? Many people do have that mindset.
Originally posted by SaberTruth
That's EXACTLY my point! They want individual responsibility for themselves but make every Christian responsible for all Christians. It's a double standard.
There are many of us atheists who were once christians, so maybe they feel in the right to do so? Good point though.
Originally posted by SaberTruth
And yet atheists play the part of God over us by judging us by their own standards, telling us what they insist the Bible says, and then having the gall to flame us for proselytizing! Who are atheists that they should tell other people what their own beliefs should be or how to live them out? Who do they think they are? Who says "Christians mess up"? We will take care of our own internal issues; it is not for atheists to dictate our doctrines to us. We are human beings doing the best we can, and INDIVIDUALS who cannot be responsible for the whole group. This once again is that double standard where atheists reserve the right to decide what we believe and then flame us for not acting as atheists decree we should.
Originally posted by SaberTruth
We are fallible humans and I already explained this. Those "thousands" of denominations... surely you would not make such a claim without citing a source, would you? Or make them all differing on SALVATION? Or are the vast majority of difference a matter of how to worship, legitimate differences of opinion, and other such secondary teachings? It seems to me you want to just lump us all together while making atheism exempt from such blanket statements.
Also, as such an authority on all Christianity, you must be familiar with what Jesus and the apostles said would happen, are you not? Something about wolves in sheep's clothing scattering the flock and all that?
Christians are human, got that?
Sabre, do you have any ideas on how christians, muslims, non-believers, etc. can get along on this planet that we share? What steps can be taken to ensure peace amongst ourselves?
Originally posted by awake_and_aware
My opinion, perhaps to resolve the division and the separation; admit that they are all being controlled by a vicious aggrigation of power by select individuals, in the form of organised commune and ritual, admit that belief doesn't require being told what to believe by a book, or by preists. Admit that belief in a deity doesn't require organised religion.
I think we'd all have some common ground after we give up the "tradition" of dogma, and it's superstitious origins. I'm not protesting someone's right to believe, but promoting emancipation from the contraint of organised religion.edit on 10/6/11 by awake_and_aware because: (no reason given)
I think i'll stick with it being just another possible theory and a concept contrived by man.
Honestly it seems like God and/or Religion is just mans way of coping with his Existence in the universe. So Meager So Small So weak So feeble.
Then Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest and asked letters from him to the synagogues of Damascus, so that if he found any who were of the Way, whether men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem. As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?” And he said, “Who are You, Lord?” Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the pricks.” -Acts9
For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy -Revelation19
While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them; and suddenly a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!” -Matthew17
Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice -John5
the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. -1Timothy1
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation -Colossians1
www.biblegateway.com...
Originally posted by Rustami
you seem new so doubt you've read my Testimony but I used to say the same thing basically (with less emotional gusto ), then one night some time after an abortion had taken place I went to pick up a green Gideon NT that was left on the kitchen bar and as soon as I began to open the cover, an audible invisible voice said my name (like a friend was sitting on my left) then "I am Jesus, I died for your sins believe in Me and you will never perish" awestruck I stood to my feet turned to the voice and said yes Lord, then many moons later came across these writings by certain men who heard this same voice obviously and had recorded it (thank God!)-
Originally posted by Hydroman
The same can be said for anyone. When you hear of a muslim blowing himself up and killing multiple people, does it make you think that all muslims are bad? Many people do have that mindset.
There are many of us atheists who were once christians, so maybe they feel in the right to do so? Good point though.
Thousands of denominations.
Do you have to be baptized to be saved? ... Do you have to be baptized to be saved?
A Christian is a person who adheres to Christianity, an Abrahamic, monotheistic religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth as recorded in the Canonical gospels and the letters of the New Testament. "Christian" derives from the Greek word Christ, a translation of the Hebrew term Messiah.[1]
Central to the Christian faith is love or Agape. Christians also believe Jesus is the Messiah prophesied in the Hebrew Bible, the Son of God, and the savior of mankind from their sins.[2] Most Christians believe in the doctrine of the Trinity ("tri-unity"), a description of God as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, which retains the monotheistic belief of Christianity's Abrahamic heritage through an ineffable confluence. This includes the vast majority of the churches in Christianity. A minority of Christian churches are Nontrinitarians.
Now that you've mentioned that humans are fallible, how can this god blame us for not believing in him as he knows that we are fallible? If he is all knowing, then he understands why we don't believe. Yet, understanding this, he will still allow us to be tortured for all eternity in fire? That makes no sense.
Originally posted by SaberTruth
We all tend to do that. But specifically regarding Islam, are you aware that their holy books actually do teach them to literally kill infidels, and that by doing so they are given 70 virgins in heaven? No Muslim scholar denies this, and there are plenty of current and former Muslim websites and books documenting what Muslim scholars say. A "good" Muslim cannot defy Sharia law, which is incompatible with any other national law, and it is the duty of every "good" Muslim to work toward that goal. So while all Muslims don't push the detonator, their religion promotes it as ideal and honorable. In other words, a Muslim we'd call "good" is actually an apostate.
In contrast, a Christian who kills, steals, lusts, etc. is acting in direct violation of the Bible, esp. the NT. Never are Christians told to use force to advance the gospel; never are we told to subvert the government; never are we told to force conversion. Those who do such things are acting contrary to the teachings of scripture.
I thought christians were trained and led by the holy spirit?
Originally posted by SaberTruth
The former Christians may have been the poorly trained ones I keep hearing about, no? Just something to keep in mind.
Originally posted by SaberTruth
We're fallible, but not complete morons to the point where we cannot understand "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved". Also in Rom. 1 is the famous passage about the existence of God being self-evident from creation; you disagree but God begs to differ. People can be willfully blind and it isn't God's fault. The Bible attributes non-belief to willful rebellion against God, a problem of pride. And that's a personal choice, not something we can't help.edit on 10-6-2011 by SaberTruth because: typos
Originally posted by Hydroman
Sabre, do you have any ideas on how christians, muslims, non-believers, etc. can get along on this planet that we share? What steps can be taken to ensure peace amongst ourselves?
I am one of those atheists who are guilty of seeing a christian make a mistake, such as saying that god showed them something which turns out to be false, and coming down on all of christianity for that one christian's mistake. Or hearing of a pastor having a homosexual affair, then lie about it and later come out and say it was true. It makes my view of christianity more dim. It makes me think that maybe they are no better than I am, even though they have an almighty god living in their hearts. Makes me think that maybe I can live better than them without a god in my heart, so why do I need it? Because I'll burn forever if I don't? Shouldn't I just get what this god thinks I deserve? Same thoughts about Islam and other religions, but I'm more familiar with christianity....
So what do I do to better myself?
Originally posted by SaberTruth
I grieve and rage at the poor examples being presented by professing Christians. I get in their faces when I can, and you can guess that I'm not the most popular kid on the block. They will get what's coming to them, sooner or later. I have free online books on the topic if you're interested, at books.fether.net....
Originally posted by Hydroman
I often thought to myself that it would be so much easier if these deities would show themselves to us and teach us directly, if they exist. But, I feel like there will still be those who will not believe or may choose not to follow because of various reasons. Seems like a no win scenario.
As a christian of 20 years or so, I prayed from my heart that the lord would help me be a true christian, not someone who just claimed to be one. I wanted to be real. Well, after all that praying I'm an atheist.
Originally posted by Hydroman
In the O.T., which was still under the same god that is in the N.T., followers of Yahweh were led to kill many, many people including babies. Is it only good when the christian god says to do it? Don't forget the dark ages and the witch trials as well.
I thought christians were trained and led by the holy spirit?
If you were born in Saudi Arabia, would you be a moron for not believing in Jesus as your savior? Are you a moron for not believing as muslims do? Are you a moron for not believing as a Jehovah's Witness or Mormon believes? What about Buddhists? What about Hindus, or ancient egyptians or ancient greeks? I just believe in one less god than you.
the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow -Matthew28
He testifies about what he has seen and heard, but how few believe what he tells them! Anyone who accepts his testimony can affirm that God is true. -John3
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. -John20
Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. -1Corinthians12
water baptism?
John answered, saying to all, “I indeed baptize you with water; but One mightier than I is coming, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to loose. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. -Luke3
His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. -Revelation19
A book declaring itself 'true' is a worthless argument; and trying to make a claim of self-evidence in this context isn't better. What's so self-evident here?
men wrote [a more sure word of prophecy] as they were moved by the Spirit-
And we heard this voice which came from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain.
And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.-2Peter1
He who speaks from himself seeks his own glory; but He who seeks the glory of the One who sent Him is true, and no unrighteousness is in Him.-John7
But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all who believe. -Romans3
For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth -9
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. -John1
they [the scriptures] are they which testify of me.-5
But now are they many members, yet but one body. And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary -1Corinthians
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for all are one in Christ Jesus -Galatians3
Since God in his wisdom saw to it that the world would never know him through human wisdom, he has used our foolish preaching to save those who believe. It is foolish to the Jews, who ask for signs from heaven. And it is foolish to the Greeks, who seek human wisdom. So when we preach that Christ was crucified, the Jews are offended and the Gentiles say it’s all nonsense.
www.biblegateway.com...