I am a Theist.

Ok first off I need to say that this seems like someone who's not posting this thread for any useful reason. Second in reply to what the OP said about elementary logic, you can use similar logic by saying that if there is a creation there is a creator. Then you can ask whether this universe was created or has it been and is it everlasting? Science proves that the universe has a creation point. So by that we can deduce that there will be an end and that there was a creator. Whether this creation was made by intelligence is where our minds stop finding logic induced answers.

Now past this point is completely based on beliefs. To be honest it's really whatever makes you sleep better at night. If you feel better thinking there's a mighty power that controls your existence and has the power to "allow" you to suffer or "save" you from harm, then go ahead. If you think that It's more of a spiritual reality that your soul/spirit goes back to the "one" whether it be god, the earth, or the universe then go for it. It's all a matter of self delusion. It's whatever takes some of the pressure off of your lives to bring inner peace.

Now the last thing I will say is that I can't tell if there is a God/Creator nor do I personally care. I don't think anyone on this planet has any idea what they are talking about. Any religion that we have on this planet is wrong, simply because it's revolved around this planet. Originally the bible talked about God making the heavens and the earth. Then after being re-translated it turned into the universe or just plain "everything" The more we learn about the earth scientifically the more Religion tries to adapt to new knowledge. Shouldn't it be the other way around? True Divine insight would have things we couldn't possibly understand until we scientifically were capable of doing so.

Originally posted by Hydroman
As a theist, how did you come to the conclusion that gods exist? Were you raised in a manner that caused you to believe in a certain god? Did you find evidence for a certain god existing? Did you have a personal experience with this god?

I'm not the OP and each person's testimony is different, but I was not raised in a religious family. I came to belief through looking at my surroundings, even as a small child I saw great complexity in nature and became convinced a Creator was behind it (incidentally, my field is construction and my expertise is in technical issues, and I STILL see more complexity in nature then I do in what we construct for ourselves). Regarding your last question, most definitely "yes". I'm not inclined to post the details here because they are of a very personal nature, but I have had several specific and very personal experiences that have reinforced my belief in God many times over. No one is saved by someone else's experiences though.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Your not as smart as I thought

Originally posted by SaberTruth

So, you got faulty signals from faulty receivers passing their imperfect understanding to you? I'm shocked!

I'm talking about the Christian listening to the Holy Spirit's voice within them, ergo you have NOT experienced any receivings from the Holy Spirit. Each of us Christians does our best, and that's all even God can ask of us. But I must assume from your interrogation that atheists are always perfect in their understanding and none of them ever misrepresent the un-faith. Right?

"How they know" is one of those things you have to have before you can know it. Kind of like love.

But I am tired of this rabbit trail and trust that my explanation is good enough for a perfect person, understanding that I'm not.

You misunderstood me. When I was a christian, other christians received these messages, not me. They relayed the info to me. They were wrong in what they said. This happened many times, and these people spoke in tongues, prophecized, etc.

Originally posted by SaberTruthBut I must assume from your interrogation that atheists are always perfect in their understanding and none of them ever misrepresent the un-faith. Right?

Their is no unfaith to misrepresent. What one atheists thinks has no bearing on what I think. If one atheists misrepresents something, so what? It has nothing to do with what I think.

Originally posted by SavedOne


Is that sound logic to you? Why not ask this: "If the God of the Bible exists, then please allow me to live past the end of this sentence." After you complete it and you're still alive, then clearly He DOES exist, right? I'm just amazed at the crazy garbage that some non-believers throw out there to explain/ justify why there is no God.

No, it is not sound logic. So, what can we do to prove, disprove that gods exists, or any specific god exists?

Originally posted by SavedOne

Originally posted by Hydroman
As a theist, how did you come to the conclusion that gods exist? Were you raised in a manner that caused you to believe in a certain god? Did you find evidence for a certain god existing? Did you have a personal experience with this god?

I'm not the OP and each person's testimony is different, but I was not raised in a religious family. I came to belief through looking at my surroundings, even as a small child I saw great complexity in nature and became convinced a Creator was behind it (incidentally, my field is construction and my expertise is in technical issues, and I STILL see more complexity in nature then I do in what we construct for ourselves). Regarding your last question, most definitely "yes". I'm not inclined to post the details here because they are of a very personal nature, but I have had several specific and very personal experiences that have reinforced my belief in God many times over. No one is saved by someone else's experiences though.

You looked at your surroundings and thought, "Since I can't explain how something so complex exists, it must mean a god did it." ? Am I right about that?

Originally posted by Warpthal
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Your not as smart as I thought

Your beliefs have been shattered. ...Things were not as you thought?

I THINK NotURTypical is quite aware of the risk he takes when he puts "faith" in a God (and man-made dogma). It's the inherent risk you run when you declare immoveable "faith" (or declare something as truth) before having evidence.

I THINK he is quite aware despite his persuaisive attitude towards the "truth" of God, especially towards the truth of a Theistic God. As convincing as he may sound, he's just as naive and ignorant of the unknown as the rest of us humans on this planet.

Scientists are humble enough to admit when they were wrong, and clever enough not to make extraordinary claims about the origins of the universe and beyond, before having extraordinary evidence.

I feel that MOST atheists have the same attitude; but atheism doesn't automatically mean "promoting science" or even enjoying science, there are many types of atheists as there are many types of theists.

Fath is blind.

Peace, always.

Originally posted by Hydroman
You misunderstood me. When I was a christian, other christians received these messages, not me. They relayed the info to me. They were wrong in what they said. This happened many times, and these people spoke in tongues, prophecized, etc.

Ok, you're talking about prophecies or "words of knowledge" then, thanks for clarifying. I have serious doubts about most of those as well. But that isn't what I'm talking about at all, merely one's personal guidance or understanding from the Spirit every believer has. As I tried to explain, it's like love (which God is, of course). Salvation is above all a restored relationship with God, and none but those who are "in Christ" can know the closeness and familiarity of God, much the way a family knows its own members and often have deep shared understanding.

Their is no unfaith to misrepresent. What one atheists thinks has no bearing on what I think. If one atheists misrepresents something, so what? It has nothing to do with what I think.

Yet if a Christian mentions something to an atheist that another atheist has said, they often come back with "that person didn't know what they were talking about". But my point is that you all want to be given a lot of leeway but hold Christians to an inhuman and impossible standard. If we so much as say "drat!" if we drop a hammer on our toes, the atheists cry "Hypocrite!" with great amusement and judgmentalism.

This can also be illustrated by an excellent cartoon I saw recently about women in technology and how every woman is expected to represent all of them:



Likewise, if an atheist says or does something inconsistent with atheism, nobody thinks anything of it. But if a Christian does something inconsistent with (real or perceived) Christian teachings, we all are denounced as a group. I can't begin to count the number of times, even just here in ATS, I see things like "Christians are all hypocrites", "Christians are backwoods morons", "Christians are against science", ad nauseum.

Originally posted by Warpthal
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Your not as smart as I thought

Sorry, it's my parents fault, they sent me to a government school. I did score a 151 on the IQ test in High School, but I will admit that was prior to my "born-again" experience. We all know that after the Duke study came out, those of us who have been born-again have a mental handicap of a shrunken hippocampus. So bear with me, it's been hell since that test, I'm scared to think what my IQ is these days, probably in the teens.

On a side note, were you aware the word "you're" is a contraction meaning: YOU ARE? "Your" is a personal pronoun attributing ownership. I have no idea where that information would be beneficial, just thought I would share it with everyone.

Take care, God bless.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Sorry, it's my parents fault, they sent me to a government school. I did score a 151 on the IQ test in High School, but I will admit that was prior to my "born-again" experience. We all know that after the Duke study came out, those of us who have been born-again have a mental handicap of a shrunken hippocampus. So bear with me, it's been hell since that test, I'm scared to think what my IQ is these days, probably in the teens.

Never had an IQ test in school, public/guvmint though it was. We only had aptitude tests. Of course, a few years ago I took one of those "Test your IQ for free! Accurate results! Fun!" online, but they didn't say how long the test was, and after about 500 pages I started clicking randomly. It told me 135 or something, but then, I've probably been a Christian longer than you. Oh, the humanity!

On a side note, were you aware the word "you're" is a contraction meaning: YOU ARE? "Your" is a personal pronoun attributing ownership. I have no idea where that information would be beneficial, just thought I would share it with everyone.

There is a facebook page called "Let's eat Grandma!" or "Let's eat, Grandma!"-- punctuation saves lives. Just wanted to add to the list of public service announcements.

reply to post by SaberTruth

There is a facebook page called "Let's eat Grandma!" or "Let's eat, Grandma!"-- punctuation saves lives. Just wanted to add to the list of public service announcements.

That reminds me of a very good book for the stickler, the title of which highlights the importance of grammar - "Eats, Shoots, and Leaves"

The anology of a panda in a cafe, and it is declared that he "eats, shoots and leaves" rather than "eats shoots and leaves" - depending on grammar, it could be a criminal panda or a vegetarian panda!

www.amazon.co.uk...

A good book, very much worth the read if you enjoy the English language.

reply to post by SaberTruth


Wow, I would have totally eaten Grandma, see what Christianity does to otherwise bright young men and women??!!

reply to post by awake_and_aware

There's plenty of "church bulletin bloopers" that are based on the same ambiguities, good stuff.

reply to post by SaberTruth


Cool

That's at least one reason for me to visit church.

Just shows you that Atheists and Theists can have something in common!

Originally posted by awake_and_aware
reply to post by SaberTruth

 

Cool

That's at least one reason for me to visit church.

Just shows you that Atheists and Theists can have something in common!

edit on 9/6/11 by awake_and_aware because: (no reason given)

It's a miracle!

church bloopers

Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by NOTurTypical1 question then.
How do you have death before Adam and Eve's sin? That's when God pronounced death as part of the curse.

If Adam and Eve were created immortal, what was the purpose of the Tree of Life in the garden? The bible states that god kicked them out of the garden so that they wouldn't eat from the Tree of Life and live forever. If they were already living forever, why was that tree put there for them to eat from? It wouldn't be a tree of life, but just a fruit tree because it would not benefit them any from eating from it since they were already immortal.

I'm with you on this one. I never understood why people thought Adam and Eve were immortal. In fact, the God that was walking in the garden stated fear of them eating the fruits as they would become just like the gods with eternal life. Did nobody tell God that Adam and Eve were already immortal? I doubt that he wouldn't have known.

Originally posted by SaberTruth
reply to post by awake_and_aware

 

There's plenty of "church bulletin bloopers" that are based on the same ambiguities, good stuff.

Dr. David Reagan always opens his talks with various funny church signs.

reply to post by Cuervo


Romans 5:12-- "When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam's sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned."

The reason we know that there was no death before sin is this verse which states it explicitly. We also know that God had told Adam, "The day you eat [the forbidden fruit] is the day you die." Yet we know they did not drop over dead in that instant, so what death was this to be? Some claim a spiritual death, but I see no support for that in the text (unless we take it as separation, the breaking of the bond God and humans shared before sin).

Originally posted by SaberTruth
reply to post by Cuervo

 

Romans 5:12-- "When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam's sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned."

The reason we know that there was no death before sin is this verse which states it explicitly. We also know that God had told Adam, "The day you eat [the forbidden fruit] is the day you die." Yet we know they did not drop over dead in that instant, so what death was this to be? Some claim a spiritual death, but I see no support for that in the text (unless we take it as separation, the breaking of the bond God and humans shared before sin).

Another way to look at it is:

The Serpent told her she would gain knowledge if she ate the apple. The God in the garden said she would surely die that day. When she ate it, what happened? She gained knowledge and didn't die. So, in that sense, the God didn't tell her the truth and the serpent did.

If it were a court investigation, it would be found that they were never immortal and that the Serpent was only trying to explain all of the social resources available to her in Garden Town. Yahweh would be found guilty of extortion and threats of bodily harm. Since they were the origin of Hebrew people (going waaaay back), he would also be found guilty of hate crimes.

I hope you realize that was in jest. Honestly, though, the fear of them turning immortal trumps his threat that they would die. I firmly believe that Yahweh created them to be mortal beings. Think about the logistics. They weren't created infertile so if they were immortal and allowed to breed (painlessly, I might add), it would not take long for Earth to be overpopulated and unsustainable.

Originally posted by Cuervo
I hope you realize that was in jest. Honestly, though, the fear of them turning immortal trumps his threat that they would die. I firmly believe that Yahweh created them to be mortal beings. Think about the logistics. They weren't created infertile so if they were immortal and allowed to breed (painlessly, I might add), it would not take long for Earth to be overpopulated and unsustainable.

Why would we think that the God who created the universe couldn't even calculate how long it would take to "fill the earth" (his express command!)? Can we really believe God didn't have some provision for such a scenario? There is no reason to make the fall of man necessary or good.