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Defining Christianity

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posted on Jun, 8 2011 @ 11:02 AM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by bogomil
In spite of some effort of making gnosticism into a christian subsect, it's not. There's a gnostic group completely free of Jesus etc. existing to this day.


Ok. So I'd have to say that the Gnostics who don't believe in Jesus are not Christians. But those who do, are. From what I've read today, at least some Gnostics have Christianity in their belief systems.

Gnostic Christianity


Sure. Following the classic recipee of making friends, infiltrate, assimilate, take over and finally declare heretic.

But this is a sidetrack, and I don't want to derail the thread.
edit on 8-6-2011 by bogomil because: word added




posted on Jun, 8 2011 @ 11:06 AM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I wanted your opinion. You don't have to answer, though.

That would be off topic here.


Modern Christianity contradicts the bible. The bible contradicts itself. I don't accept your statement.

Nobody's making you accept anything, it's an attempt to get a consensus. And I have quite a lot to say about how exactly modern Christianity contradicts the bible, but again that would be off-topic here.



posted on Jun, 8 2011 @ 11:14 AM
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The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.



Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
As I said, I do not favor ATS adoption of an official definition of any word, however. It's just not something that can or should be controlled.


Nether do I since I think that would discourage open and free debate. To say "I have it all figured out" is laughable on this side of death.

You brought up the Mormons for instance which makes a very good discussion. They're so close to being Christians it's hard not to call them that even though I do have some very strong objections to some of their views of Jesus (They don't put him as being with God at Creation). Still, they do stress the importance of Jesus' death and resurrection as the plan of salvation. I hold those two aspects to be the highest, really only necessary beliefs so I can just disagree with them on other points. For instance I think they water down the impact of Jesus' death on the cross by denying him to be a deity equal to God. (not necessarily same as God)

I have similar gripes with the way Catholicism is practiced and how they focus on praying to the Saints and Mary.

Jesus didn't preach that perfect understanding of God and his plan of salvation was necessary for salvation so somethings can be overlooked. The thief who died on the cross beside Jesus did not do good works, attend church, was not baptized, did not pay tithes or go out and preach about Jesus. He simply believed in Jesus being the Messiah. ("Remember me in your kingdom")

There I've gone on too much now but hopefully this makes things a bit more clear at least in my opinion.




As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.

edit on 8-6-2011 by dbates because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 8 2011 @ 11:15 AM
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Originally posted by SaberTruth
I have quite a lot to say about how exactly modern Christianity contradicts the bible, but again that would be off-topic here.


YOU said:


Originally posted by SaberTruth
It should go without saying that any text or teaching that blatantly contradicts the Bible would not meet that definition.


You're suggesting a definition for Christianity based on the teachings of the bible, yet you admit that Christianity itself contradicts the bible - and any teaching that contradicts the bible would not meet the definition of Christianity...

So, it sounds like Christianity itself does not meet the definition of Christianity. Oy! That is one confusing position...

.
edit on 6/8/2011 by Benevolent Heretic because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 8 2011 @ 11:21 AM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
You're suggesting a definition for Christianity based on the teachings of the bible, yet you admit that Christianity itself contradicts the bible - and any teaching that contradicts the bible would not meet the definition of Christianity...

So, it sounds like Christianity itself does not meet the definition of Christianity.

That's because you are committing the fallacy of equivocation. You know very well that the focus here is on the Wiki definition, and that even the most inconsistent Christians will still say they believe the Bible to be God's Word, that Jesus is our Savior, and that there is no other way to be saved. What they do beyond that can be quite inconsistent with it, but they do so on the basis of interpretation of the Bible-- NOT denial of the Bible. Hope that helps.



posted on Jun, 8 2011 @ 11:27 AM
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It appears that ATS will not allow or condone Christianity being defined at all, seeing that a moderator has spoken.

From now on, I'm going to define atheism however I want.


Are we having fun yet?



posted on Jun, 8 2011 @ 11:32 AM
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Originally posted by SaberTruth
It appears that ATS will not allow or condone Christianity being defined at all, seeing that a moderator has spoken.


You're forgetting that I'm a member just like you and no I don't set the rules for this forum. I was just stating that I didn't think it was possible to set exact rules. That's already been tried. Why do you think that Christianity has splintered into so many different groups and denominations? None of them could agree as to what exactly Christianity was. The Pilgrims left England, The Church of England left Rome. Do you really honestly believe that after 2000 years we can just settle this real quick here in one thread as if all the other past Biblical scholars were dunces? This is not a trivial task and it won't be solved just because we say-so.



posted on Jun, 8 2011 @ 11:38 AM
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Originally posted by dbates
You're forgetting that I'm a member just like you and no I don't set the rules for this forum. I was just stating that I didn't think it was possible to set exact rules. That's already been tried. Why do you think that Christianity has splintered into so many different groups and denominations? None of them could agree as to what exactly Christianity was. The Pilgrims left England, The Church of England left Rome. Do you really honestly believe that after 2000 years we can just settle this real quick here in one thread as if all the other past Biblical scholars were dunces? This is not a trivial task and it won't be solved just because we say-so.


I thought mods always indicated when they were posting their personal opinions, but that must have been the practice of only the mod I saw do that elsewhere.

But again, look at the scope of the OP: ATS. Not the world, not history, not the US, but ATS, and for the expressed and limited purpose of being able to hold a discussion without Christians having to continually "reinvent the wheel", as your own post states at the top of the Religion section.

I try my best to communicate but have failed miserably. My apologies for trying.



posted on Jun, 8 2011 @ 11:43 AM
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Originally posted by SaberTruth
I thought mods always indicated when they were posting their personal opinions, but that must have been the practice of only the mod I saw do that elsewhere.


I don't always specify this point but that is true. I edited the post so that it's clear now. Sorry if this wasn't obvious.



posted on Jun, 8 2011 @ 11:57 AM
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reply to post by SaberTruth
 


You wrote:

["But again, look at the scope of the OP: ATS. Not the world, not history, not the US, but ATS, and for the expressed and limited purpose of being able to hold a discussion without Christians having to continually "reinvent the wheel", as your own post states at the top of the Religion section.

I try my best to communicate but have failed miserably. My apologies for trying."]

For a christian it would be simpler just to declare: I'm this or that kind of christian. Any critic could then take the trouble to relate to that, if it's important in the context.



posted on Jun, 8 2011 @ 12:09 PM
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Originally posted by SaberTruth
From now on, I'm going to define atheism however I want.


Go right on.
But you will probably have atheists and some believers who will disagree. But that's OK. Discussion is good. And trying to halt discussion is, in my opinion, not good.

(p.s. You may not know that U2Us are also subject to the T&C of the board but I'm telling you now. I won't report you for the most recent violation.)



posted on Jun, 8 2011 @ 12:13 PM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
(p.s. You may not know that U2Us are also subject to the T&C of the board but I'm telling you now. I won't report you for the most recent violation.)

So the U2U YOU sent me was NOT a violation, but if I respond in kind, somehow it is?

Wow.
edit on 8-6-2011 by SaberTruth because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 8 2011 @ 12:48 PM
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You have had 2000 years to figure it out if there isn't a definition yet perhaps it is time to rethink the whole construct.



posted on Jun, 8 2011 @ 02:33 PM
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I will define Christianity, it is the system used by people with alot to lose with many kinds of denominations, with one common purpose, to ENSURE that humanity does not actually advance in any way, but continue to wallow in misery and a state of never knowing, never completing, and always failing.

As are many other religions, however this one Christianity feeds and drains from the soul in such a way that it does indeed give some of the answers, and yet in giving those answers ensures those same revelations will be muted when trying to find others, it is a classic TRAP.

/The End./

Oh yes, i forgot to say that it will soon be FORGOTTEN.



posted on Jun, 8 2011 @ 03:03 PM
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All these definitions of Christianity and debates and different demoninations always makes me think of this passage:

Matthew 22:36-40

Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

From this, all else follows.

Where is there the need for division in that?



posted on Jun, 8 2011 @ 03:47 PM
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reply to post by SaberTruth
 


I think your description is close enough, but maybe incomplete. To be a christian doesn't represent impediment to have your mind open to concepts like reincarnation, meditation, karma or extraterrestrials. The people who took control of the christian churches in the early years of christianism "reshaped" all at their personal convenience. As a christian, I recognize that.

Some stories of the Bible are symbolisms mixed with the perspective of the low educated people in those days, remember the description of the Ezekiel's Wheel, for us that would be an UFO today.

It's so clear how some people pretend to be unaware of these symbolisms, and try to make fun or disrespect christianism. But if by any chance, they are really unaware, that means they have a big problem to see the difference between a symbolic story and reality. These persons are as dangerous as a monkey with a gun.



posted on Jun, 8 2011 @ 03:48 PM
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reply to post by SaberTruth
 


I think that to truly be considered a Christian you have to not only believe in Jesus but must ADHERE to all of the teachings of Christ, without fail.

This is a great downfall of Christianity and from my time studying it, the way it is taught and practiced here, creates a LOT of issues. Basically, in America you are taught that all you have to do to be a Christian and be saved is to accept Jesus into your heart and you're set. You can do this as a serial killer who accepts Jesus on his/her electric chair. Nothing you do, be it unethical or immoral, matters if you accept Jesus afterwards. Many people have accepted Jesus and truly believe he existed and was who the Bible says he was, but they don't really follow many, if any, of his teachings.

For example, I have no doubt that the CEOs and heads of major banks and corporations call themselves Christian. Are they? Definitely not. Christ taught us to not bury ourselves in the material, the tangible. He taught against the greed and wishing for riches. The Bible, as do other religious texts, forbid charging interest for example. Loans of money are ok, but no one is allowed to collect interest on money loaned, only the repayment itself. If we followed those teachings banking would not be allowed, credit cards, mortgages and so on.

Everything we do, everything our economy is based on is un-Christian. And yet the whole country considers itself Christian. We wage wars, we murder innocent people everywhere (this cannot be denied) and yet every President and politician finishes their speech with God Bless America. If they believed in God and really were Christian, would they be in those positions, doing what they do - absolutely and certainly no, they would not.

So by this definition of Christianity, USA is not a Christian country at all. But that's not gonna stop anyone from saying it is and calling themselves Christian. They're just really lying to themselves - plain and simple.

This hypocrisy is what gets most of us agnostics and atheists to resent religion as a whole. Yes, there are real Christians out there, real believers of any faith, and I will welcome them all into my home and treat them as my own brother, but unfortunately they are the quiet ones and the real public image of Christianity has been hijacked by the unethical and self-serving fakers.

Khar



posted on Jun, 8 2011 @ 04:07 PM
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Originally posted by Trueman
reply to post by SaberTruth
 


I think your description is close enough, but maybe incomplete. To be a christian doesn't represent impediment to have your mind open to concepts like reincarnation, meditation, karma or extraterrestrials. The people who took control of the christian churches in the early years of christianism "reshaped" all at their personal convenience. As a christian, I recognize that.

Some stories of the Bible are symbolisms mixed with the perspective of the low educated people in those days, remember the description of the Ezekiel's Wheel, for us that would be an UFO today.

It's so clear how some people pretend to be unaware of these symbolisms, and try to make fun or disrespect christianism. But if by any chance, they are really unaware, that means they have a big problem to see the difference between a symbolic story and reality. These persons are as dangerous as a monkey with a gun.


For your information I can tell you, that elsewhere has the OP author excluded asian practises (meditation or yoga I believe) for 'true' christians.



posted on Jun, 8 2011 @ 04:39 PM
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I feel this would be of some use to us all.

en.wikipedia.org...

Study the history of Christianity, study the fascist preists behind certain Christian movements, study what they were preaching to the people, study how they gained fiscal support and the support of millions of followers eager to please this "GOD" described by the priests.



posted on Jun, 8 2011 @ 05:07 PM
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reply to post by bogomil
 


I have seen catholic priests guiding meditations, forbidden or not. I used to have meditations with a group (all christians), twice a week. Nobody got excomulgated or exorcided so far. Thanks anyway.
edit on 8-6-2011 by Trueman because: (no reason given)



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