1919 signed letter contains Hitler's first known stance on Jewish 'removal'

reply to post by Siddharta


There are no gas chambers in Wiesel's book, according to him people in Auschwitz were thrown alive into a large fire. He writes that he prefers to throw himself into the electric fences instead of being burned alive.

has anyone considered "the letter" to be connected with the Balfour Declaration of 1917 ?

en.wikipedia.org...

Background

In 1896, Theodor Herzl, a Jewish journalist living in Austria-Hungary, published Der Judenstaat ("The Jewish State"), in which he asserted that the only solution to the "Jewish Question" in Europe, including growing antisemitism, was through the establishment of a Jewish State.

Political Zionism had just been born.[6] A year later, Herzl founded the Zionist Organization (ZO), which at its first congress, "called for the establishment of a home for the Jewish people in Palestine secured under public law".

Serviceable means to attain that goal included the promotion of Jewish settlement there, the organization of Jews in the diaspora, the strengthening of Jewish feeling and consciousness, and preparatory steps to attain those necessary governmental grants.

By the end of the First World War, Great Britain had the British Mandate for Palestine. The issuance of the Balfour Declaration greatly increased the immigration of Jews to Palestine. In 1947, Great Britain decided to turn its Mandate over to the United Nations, which, in the same year, adopted Resolution 181, partitioning the land into two states, one Arab and one Jewish......

In 1919 the General Secretary (and future President) of the Zionist Organization, Nahum Sokolow, published a History of Zionism (1600-1918). Sokolow represented the Zionist Organization at the Paris Peace Conference. He explained:

The object of Zionism is to establish for the Jewish people a home in Palestine secured by public law." ... ...It has been said and is still being obstinately repeated by anti-Zionists again and again, that Zionism aims at the creation of an independent "Jewish State" But this is wholly fallacious. The "Jewish State" was never part of the Zionist programme. The Jewish State was the title of Herzl's first pamphlet, which had the supreme merit of forcing people to think. This pamphlet was followed by the first Zionist Congress, which accepted the Basle programme - the only programme in existence.

complicated subject.

Evidence should come out not too long from now that will blow the lid off of it. Anybody who denies right now the holocaust is going to be the biggest fool on earth. We told you for decades what happened, and you denied it. Your forked tongue does not hide your thoughts and deeds. Sir, there will come a day when you will no longer deny. You will no longer dirty. You will no longer hide. Do you look forward to this day? Or do you cower in fear of the light, of the truth?

It's said that the truth will set us free. But not everyone wants to be free.

For them the truth is asinine, it's poisonous. The light burns them, the truth tortures their soul.

Originally posted by Dr Expired

Originally posted by AshleyD
I guess it's not too surprising. Hitler started writing Mein Kamph just a few years later which was rife with antisemitic rhetoric. I'm sure the seeds had been planted before that. In one of his biographies, I think the root of his hate developed in his college years in Austria.

On an 'mindless trivia' note, his signature is interesting. The way it trails off is a sign of anger and being mentally disturbed. I guess that goes without saying, though.

You may be right , but sometimes it as if History explaining Hitler as a madman is devoid of any intellectual integrity...his family Doctor was Jewish, many of the richest Industrialists in Germany even during the war were Jewish?
Not all Jews were sent to camps? Some lived out the war years in occupied Europe untouched?
I for one do not believe he was mad, he was a warrior who set out to make Germany the Ruler of Europe and beyond, just as Napoleon ( a Jew) set out to do for France.
Iam not a supporter of Hitler but neither do I beleieve the easy answers.
no one man rises to power without support, and many people of varying backgrounds/ Religions backed Hitler even after mein Kampf was published.
Some believe he was encouraged and backed to thwart the scheming murderous Stalin, that it was he who was double crossed by rthe crafty Brits, who were staring down the barrel of a rampant Red revolution in Europe.
Out of the war the Jews got a homeland, Britain lost its superfical empire, and the USA and Russia got the spoils.?
Germany got destroyed .

This got is obviously racist.
Second line.

Originally posted by Regenstorm
reply to post by Siddharta

 

There are no gas chambers in Wiesel's book, according to him people in Auschwitz were thrown alive into a large fire. He writes that he prefers to throw himself into the electric fences instead of being burned alive.

So we have got an author, who admits, that he mixes facts and fiction and many doubt, that he ever was in any camp at all... And his novel is proof of what? That people were thrown into the fire instead of being killed in a gas chamber?
So when Goebbels wrote in his diary -

„Es wird hier ein ziemlich barbarisches und nicht näher zu beschreibendes Verfahren angewandt, und von den Juden selbst bleibt nicht mehr viel übrig.“

("A rather barbaric and not to be described more specifically procedure will be used, and of the Jews themselves there won't be left a lot.")
- he was talking of a good old burning, instead of industrialized murder. Doesn't really make it any better, does it?

But one Münchhausen cannot change all the facts and witnesses.

Originally posted by jonnywhite
Evidence should come out not too long from now that will blow the lid off of it. Anybody who denies right now the holocaust is going to be the biggest fool on earth. We told you for decades what happened, and you denied it. Your forked tongue does not hide your thoughts and deeds. Sir, there will come a day when you will no longer deny. You will no longer dirty. You will no longer hide. Do you look forward to this day? Or do you cower in fear of the light, of the truth?

It's said that the truth will set us free. But not everyone wants to be free.

For them the truth is asinine, it's poisonous. The light burns them, the truth tortures their soul.

edit on 9-6-2011 by jonnywhite because: (no reason given)

Genocide happens everyday, but the "civilized" world denies it and pretends it is not causing it. The facts of the holocaust just do not add up.

www.holocaustdenialvideos.com

Originally posted by sapien82
So either the nazi's were very maticulous in cleaning their tracks so to speak, that they left no trace behind of any documentation as to the removal of Jews and other humans by mass genocide.

Or they never bothered to document it , and just decided they could order it without the need for pieces of paper?

Either way it seems very strange ,surely there would be hundreds of paper orders documenting the extermination of the jews . after all didnt the nazi's record all of their insane experiments of humans ? Yet they manage not to record the systematic killing of millions of people.

Today, few people know that the Mauthausen prisoner card file and other records from the camp, occupying 11 meters of shelf space, have been in the Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum Archives for 50 years.

- en.auschwitz.org.pl...

Either way there are parts of the 2nd world war , that still remain a mystery to me !

Perhaps you could try looking - records are not hard to find.

specific orders from Hitler may be lacking - but then the Nazi system was pretty weird for thos of us used to western beuracracy - paraphrasing heavily, hte Nazi system of Govt consisted of Hitler saying or intimating that something needed to be done or he wanted it done or it would be a good idea.....and then each of his sub-feuhrers (Himmler, Goebels, Goering, etc) would do whatever he thought he could get away with, and justified it with "the Feuhrer wishes it".

To those of us brought up with stories of German efficiency it seems inconceivable that such a laissez fiare system could have existed in Germany - and yet in WW2 Germany was grossly inefficient in its approach to many things - competition between the SS & wheremacht for ground troops, and later the LuftWaffe as well, the production of heavy tanks that wasted resources, indeed the imprisoning and murder of millions of potentially productive German nationals, faiklure to produce a viable heavy bombing force, filure to plan properly for fighting the UK/Commonwealth & again in Russia - and those are jsut some of hte "big ticket" items where they screwed up royally.

Originally posted by DuceizBack

Originally posted by Dr Expired

Originally posted by AshleyD
I guess it's not too surprising. Hitler started writing Mein Kamph just a few years later which was rife with antisemitic rhetoric. I'm sure the seeds had been planted before that. In one of his biographies, I think the root of his hate developed in his college years in Austria.

On an 'mindless trivia' note, his signature is interesting. The way it trails off is a sign of anger and being mentally disturbed. I guess that goes without saying, though.

You may be right , but sometimes it as if History explaining Hitler as a madman is devoid of any intellectual integrity...his family Doctor was Jewish, many of the richest Industrialists in Germany even during the war were Jewish?
Not all Jews were sent to camps? Some lived out the war years in occupied Europe untouched?
I for one do not believe he was mad, he was a warrior who set out to make Germany the Ruler of Europe and beyond, just as Napoleon ( a Jew) set out to do for France.
Iam not a supporter of Hitler but neither do I beleieve the easy answers.
no one man rises to power without support, and many people of varying backgrounds/ Religions backed Hitler even after mein Kampf was published.
Some believe he was encouraged and backed to thwart the scheming murderous Stalin, that it was he who was double crossed by rthe crafty Brits, who were staring down the barrel of a rampant Red revolution in Europe.
Out of the war the Jews got a homeland, Britain lost its superfical empire, and the USA and Russia got the spoils.?
Germany got destroyed .

This got is obviously racist.
Second line.

When one accuses wrongly another of being a bigot and racist at least make sure you read what is front of you first.
I was referring to the Jewish doctor and Jewish industrialists to make a simple point, which would be simple to comprehend to 99.9% of members?
If he pathologically hated Jews because they were Jews and not because of their perceived actions then it would be doubtful if he would have allowed the Jewish Doctor to continue ...and the wealthy Jews in occupied Europe to continue making profit during wartime.
I believe its dangerous to label someone a madman the truth is more evil and dangerous....he wasn't mad he was working to achieve his goals no matter how inhumane they appear.
The Nazis cold heartedly executed millions with efficiency Russian POWS, Jews, Gypsies, Gays, Unionists, communists,Jehova Witnesses.....he was an instrument for selfish motive of the utmost foulness, but he and his followers were not mad.
That is the second line explained.
He spared those who were useful ,he was pragmatic ,but not mad.

reply to post by Aloysius the Gaul


Yeh I was meaning the actual records for the orders of Xyklon B , and the orders for the building of the gas houses , and the orders for the deaths of the prisoners by gassing.

I can see from the link that there are records of the prisoners themselves, but the actual records and orders relationg to the way the prisoners were killed seem to have either not been created to hide the brutality ( doesnt make sense to hide it they were quite open about murder) Or they were destroyed in an attempt to make them look less brutal in the eyes of the world when they came to trial.

It's very concerning however , as the Iraq afghan death toll rises , we have in some way a record of the deaths and how they died , unlike ww2 and the death camps.

Originally posted by starwarsisreal
Hmmmm we should go back to his war days to see the origins of his hatred for Jews. I'm sure some kind of event made him hate them

Hitler's immediate commanding officer was a Jew, who won the Iron Cross and put up Hitler for his Iron Cross, the fact that Hitler got the man out of Germany and insisted on sending his WW1 pension to the US right up to the end of the war indicates that Hitler didn't hate that Jew, much like the racists of today who hate blacks except for "Steve" their workmate "cos he's alright".

Hitler and the cult he surrounded himself with were very very weird people with a profusion of sick reasons for their actions not just one simple cause, ironic that they adopted such a simplistic course of action to resolve their inner conflict.

Originally posted by Siddharta

Originally posted by Regenstorm
reply to post by Siddharta

 

There are no gas chambers in Wiesel's book, according to him people in Auschwitz were thrown alive into a large fire. He writes that he prefers to throw himself into the electric fences instead of being burned alive.

So we have got an author, who admits, that he mixes facts and fiction and many doubt, that he ever was in any camp at all... And his novel is proof of what? That people were thrown into the fire instead of being killed in a gas chamber?
So when Goebbels wrote in his diary -

„Es wird hier ein ziemlich barbarisches und nicht näher zu beschreibendes Verfahren angewandt, und von den Juden selbst bleibt nicht mehr viel übrig.“

("A rather barbaric and not to be described more specifically procedure will be used, and of the Jews themselves there won't be left a lot.")
- he was talking of a good old burning, instead of industrialized murder. Doesn't really make it any better, does it?

But one Münchhausen cannot change all the facts and witnesses.

Eliezer "Elie" Wiesel KBE (English pronunciation: /ˈɛli vɨˈzɛl/; born September 30, 1928)[1] is a Romanian-born Jewish-American[1] writer, professor, political activist, Nobel Laureate, and Holocaust survivor. He is the author of 57 books, including Night, a work based on his experiences as a prisoner in the Auschwitz, Buna, and Buchenwald concentration camps.[2] Wiesel is also the Advisory Board chairman of the Algemeiner Journal newspaper. When Wiesel was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 1986, the Norwegian Nobel Committee called him a "messenger to mankind", stating that through his struggle to come to terms with "his own personal experience of total humiliation and of the utter contempt for humanity shown in Hitler's death camps", as well as his "practical work in the cause of peace", Wiesel had delivered a powerful message "of peace, atonement and human dignity" to humanity.[3]

en.wikipedia.org...

Just an author, right...
His story is Male-Cow Manure, just like those of many other supposed witnesses...

Originally posted by sapien82
but the actual records and orders relationg to the way the prisoners were killed seem to have either not been created to hide the brutality ( doesnt make sense to hide it they were quite open about murder) Or they were destroyed in an attempt to make them look less brutal in the eyes of the world when they came to trial.

There is a difference for death tolls in combat and death tolls of mass murder. Right now I cannot think of any mass murdering regime, that published tolls at all.
In case of the German Reich there was an order of July 11th 1943:

Betrifft: Behandlung der Judenfrage Im Auftrag des Führers teile ich mit: Bei der öffentlichen Behandlung der Judenfrage muss Jede Erörterung einer künftigen Gesamtlösung unterbleiben. Es kann jedoch davon gesprochen werden, dass die Juden Geschlossen zu zweckentsprechendem Arbeitseinsatz herangezogen werden.

Saying:
"Subject: treatment of the Jewish Question

On behalf of the Führer, I notify:
In the public treatment of the Jewish Question every discussion of the prospective total solution must be omitted.
It is possible though to talk about the Jews being enlisted as a whole to appropriate work deployments."

This came from Hitler's headquarter.
Here is a JPG of the letter: Bormann letter

In his "Political Testament" Hitler accused the Jews and other political interests for the war. He also said, that he never left any doubt, that "this time" the "really guilty ones" will have to suffer. In his eyes, they were treated with more "human means".
The text can be read here: Politisches Testament
Here is a Google translation, but it is difficult to read, since google changes the format:
Google translation

Originally posted by Regenstorm
Just an author, right...

His story is Male-Cow Manure, just like those of many other supposed witnesses...

Your argumentation doesn't make quiet sense to me: You are trying to give more weight to Elie Wiesel to prove that an "important" witness did not mention gas chambers at all - but said people were burned alive - and then again call him a liar, concluding that "those many other supposed witnesses" were lying, too.

So the allied troops were ordered to spread that story, freed the people from the camps and instructed them to tell this story to the world? Probably they wrote a curriculum vitae for each and every prisoner.

Instead of trying to rewrite history from one book you find suspicious maybe you should pick one of those families, where many did not survive and try to research, what happened to them.
Maybe you would like to find out, what happened to the members of the Theater der Prominenten, most of them cabaretists, who had fled from Germany to the Netherlands, but were imprisoned after Germany occupied this neighbouring country.

If you take a look at individuals, maybe it is more personally for yourself. Maybe you heard of the "stumble blocks" in German towns. These are little memorial stones infront of houses, where people lived before and disappeared during the Nazi regime. A lot of individuals who's fate is worth to check out.

reply to post by Siddharta


So hitlers statement here basically says that , the final solution for the jews has to be omitted from discussion . Only can they refer to the jews with regards to forced labour ?

So this is evidence that they covered up the whole final solution ? or am I reading this wrong ?

Anyways death toll from combat and death toll from murder ! civilian deaths during war are always murder in any sense , and the death tolls from Afghan and Iraq are all murder as the war is completely illegal.
but thats for another discussion .


So hitler order that no one talk about fight club , was this to reduce the chances of the jews discovering their fate ?

Originally posted by sapien82
So hitler order that no one talk about fight club , was this to reduce the chances of the jews discovering their fate ?

Remember, why Gemlich asked Hauptmann Mayr about joining an anti-semitic group, which led to Hitler's answer, which is subject of this thread.
Gemlich asked, if the (former) government would accept such a group, since the existence of such a group could bring trouble and riots.

The Jews were not such an isolated group as many seem to think now. They were neighbors and friends. Many fought for Germany during WWI. And even if one dislikes Jews this does not make him accept to kill whole families from grandfather to baby. Even if one thought, the Jews stole all the money from him, this does not make everybody wish to kill them and break the gold from their teeth.
So it was not only to keep the Jews unaware of their fate, but also the whole population. From afar it seems it worked very well. There was nearly no resistance and after the war nobody had seen or heard anything...

I think the same would happen in every country nowadays. We all have one or more minorities, which are disliked by many of the majority. If those officially were "sent home" or "made to work" many would think, this is right. But if you tell the people, we kill them by the tenth or hundreds a day you either get a revolution or a mass hunting - or as third possibility a civil war. All three would not be good for a leadership that wants to keep control.

reply to post by Siddharta


I see , so hitler did make efforts to conceal his grand scheme , there was no need to hide or destroy the evidence because it was ordered not to be created in the first place !

Cold and calculating , to the very end .

Originally posted by Siddharta

Originally posted by Regenstorm
Just an author, right...

His story is Male-Cow Manure, just like those of many other supposed witnesses...

Your argumentation doesn't make quiet sense to me: You are trying to give more weight to Elie Wiesel to prove that an "important" witness did not mention gas chambers at all - but said people were burned alive - and then again call him a liar, concluding that "those many other supposed witnesses" were lying, too.

So the allied troops were ordered to spread that story, freed the people from the camps and instructed them to tell this story to the world? Probably they wrote a curriculum vitae for each and every prisoner.

Instead of trying to rewrite history from one book you find suspicious maybe you should pick one of those families, where many did not survive and try to research, what happened to them.
Maybe you would like to find out, what happened to the members of the Theater der Prominenten, most of them cabaretists, who had fled from Germany to the Netherlands, but were imprisoned after Germany occupied this neighbouring country.

If you take a look at individuals, maybe it is more personally for yourself. Maybe you heard of the "stumble blocks" in German towns. These are little memorial stones infront of houses, where people lived before and disappeared during the Nazi regime. A lot of individuals who's fate is worth to check out.

I recommended the book by Wiesel to let you see that it's rubbish, just like many other testimonies. There is another account of an Auschwitz-witness in which gassed bodies are thrown into a pit and the corpses burned completely within a half hour, including the bones. Just search for the video "Schwindlers Liste".
The testimony of Adolf Eichmann is also rubbish with his "blood fountains"...

reply to post by Regenstorm


Yes, I see what you're up to. It's the common tactic to throw in bits of "evidence" which is made by people of the same mindset, ignoring everything else.

I found it funny, when I read the following comment about Eichmann by a user at youtube:
"If a top ranking Nazi cannot be trusted in their testimonies, then why should we trust any one else?"

What's that whole world coming to? You even cannot trust a top ranking Nazi!

Ok im getting slightly confused now , Regenstorm , are you saying that Weisels book which states that bodies were burned in fires instead of gassed is a flasehood , and that there were no fires ?


Either way loads of people died , and there seems to be some conspiracy or shrouded mystery as to the truth, however what is the purpose in hiding the truth about how they died ? afterall they all still died . does it make it any less gruesome and inhumane if they were gassed or burned alive .


Im lost on your stance on this whole mess , I can tell you have your socio politcal beliefs but im not sure exactly what they are right now.
Im looking at your avatar and thinking you like the nazi bell theories and that you may believe in the alien aryan race? What that has to do with the deaths of millions in WW2 is anyones guess.

Im not judging you just curious as to what your getting at

reply to post by sapien82


If you keep on misinterpreting my words you get confused indeed. According to Wiesel there were NO GAS CHAMBERS, another witness claims the bodies were burned AFTER they were gassed. And those are not the only hoaxers.
www.independent.co.uk...