Atheism

Originally posted by kerazeesicko
Is it me or are the atheists on ATS just as fanatical as the religious people they condemn for being fanatical?

I've never advocated the total annihilation of billions of human beings because they believe differently than I do; so I'd have to say that no, I'm nowhere near as "fanatical" as our fanatical religious posters.

Fanaticism requires non-thought. Total acceptance of a doctrine, even when it's countered by reality. A fanatic cannot change their mind about whatever it is they are a fanatic about. It's often characterized by a need to force that doctrine on others. It's unlikely you'll find an atheist "fanatic" as atheism requires a good dose of skepticism.

Fanatic: "I WILL GO TO PARADISE IF I BLOW UP A CHUCKY CHEESE'S!"
Atheist: "So you want me to wear this Bomb belt and blow up a lot of kids, because I'll get to go somewhere with seventy-two virgins? Look, if this things's on my waist, I don't think that I'm going to be in any state to enjoy those virgins, you know? besides, you ever been with a virgin? I'd like to talk to your supervisor, please."

I am a fan of Bill Maher...but his atheism fanatical rants on religion or just over the top...it is like he has to tell the world at every opportunity that he does not believe in God, exactly like a fanatical religious person who must declare his belief.

Bill Maher makes his living by being an obnoxious blowhard. It's kinda like basing one's opinion of Christians on Ann Coulter. even if they're really like that (which I doubt, just like Ashton Kucher isn't actually a dumbass) they're singular examples.

You don't see Stephen Hawking - also an atheist - plowing people down with htat awesome motorized chair of his for "believing," do you?

It is like the ATS poster who also are religion...they must pop in a thread about religion to say...they is no God...etc.

Welcome to a public forum. We get religious people frequently telling us how we're all sinners going to hell, as well. if you want a closed-off community where you can discuss religion without interruption, ATS is a really bad place to look for it.

I mean how does it hurt if it brings peace to those that need an outside source for comfort. I am not sure what I believe, but in the end who cares.

If that were the only thing Religion did, that'd be fine. Really, if the only thing religion ever did was bring some sort of solace to those in need of such, that'd be okay. The trouble is... religion is more than that - and I would strongly question if it ever has actually brought solace to anyone. Religion seems to be a major cause of self-doubt and stress for those who believe in it in fact.

However, religion is more than a woobie blanket to clutch when you need comfort. It is a complete and total philosophy and set of laws to structure your life - and for many religions, the lives of others -s around. These laws, strictures, and taboos often conflict, not just with the world around you, but with each other as well (quick quiz; Lobster, yes or no?) it is a major cause of violence, political upheaval, and loss of scientific and historical knowledge.

And what's more; there are other nonreligious ways to find solace in one's time of need; millions of atheists have managed this. I wager that someday I'm going to join those ranks. Put the sky over my head and let me reflect on whether I've done the best with my life that I could, and I'll die a happy man.

I understand if the a religious poster comes into a rational thread about...let's say earthquakes, and then quotes the bible on why it is happening then you can tell them to bugger off..

The trouble is, these people actually DO believe that sort of stuff. In my opinion it's worth the time to try to get them to question the notion that thousands died in a tsunami because their god hates the god those people worship.

Going into a religious thread just to say...God does not exist and then add no other constructive comment to the conversation is just dumb.

Which is why ATS has rules against one-line posts.

So OK..you do not believe in God...good for you..gold star for you,...high five....and whatever recognition you are looking for.

As the one starting a "religious thread" aren't you the one seeking "gold stars"?

reply to post by UnknownPhilosopher


But it doesn't require faith to doubt religious claims to the point of rejecting them intellectually. Science may not have all the answers but claims of deities are usually based on flawed logic and no argument for God's existence has ever passed intellectual muster in my opinion. This doesn't indicate that there are no gods merely that there seems no good evidence or reason to believe in them.

reply to post by kerazeesicko


To the OP, its a two way street. No party is void of fault here. I can count just as many religous folks as non-religous folks just dropping by and throwing a little blurb in there.

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by MrFake

 

1) It doesn't require faith to disbelieve. Do you need faith that Santa Claus and Zeus do not exist in order to lack belief in them? I think not.

Disbelieving is thinking that something is not there, right? Therefore, you have faith in the fact that there is no god. You don't have proof that there is no god, you just believe it. Or, "disbelieve" it as you say. Which is really the same thing unless you have proof that there is no god. I'm Catholic, therefore, I believe in the big bang theory and evolution etc etc. My religion is compatible with science. I just believe that God caused it (since you cannot provide proof of what created the universe).

2) In order for atheism to be a religion THEISM must be a religion, to suggest that atheism is a religion is, quite simply, idiotic. Theism is belief in god(s), it is not a religion. Atheism is disbelief in god(s). Neither of those have what it takes to be religions.

Idiotic? Religion has nothing to do with gods or goddesses. Your assumption that in order to be a religion there has to be a defined god is idiotic. Religion, in its basic form, is a belief shared by many people (Atheism, Catholicism, Buddhism, etc.). I think you're confusing religion with organized religion.

Anyways, I apologize if you're not willing to accept the fact that you are a religious person, who places faith in beliefs which cannot be proven or disproven.

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by UnknownPhilosopher

 

But it doesn't require faith to doubt religious claims to the point of rejecting them intellectually. Science may not have all the answers but claims of deities are usually based on flawed logic and no argument for God's existence has ever passed intellectual muster in my opinion. This doesn't indicate that there are no gods merely that there seems no good evidence or reason to believe in them.

True, I am very much with you on that. More of my point is that really any belief system requires at least a small amount of faith. Obviously some more than others.

reply to post by TheWalkingFox


OK fanaticism may be a little over the top in talking about you guys....but it is like atheists feel the need to tell the world about their belief in no God, like I said state it once and that should be enough...but just posting to state it over and over...is to me a little over the top.

I could care less about stars...in fact I really do not want any...if you like what I got to say..good..but I don't require recognition for my thoughts..

A public forum is great to express opinions, rant or whatever..but posting "there is no God" is just kerazee stupid....are these people looking for recognition, do they need constant reassurance that there are other people who also feel the same way, or does it somehow make them feel superior to others because reassuring yourself about your "intelligence: is just sad..

reply to post by blujasper


Trolling is not allowed on ATS. And the 1-2 line posts that boil down to 'Believing in a sky fairy is stupid haha' in complex, specific religious topics is trolling. Same thing as 'Believers in aliens are delusional haha' in the UFO/Aliens forum. 'Ain't nothing gonna happen on 2012 haha.' in the 2012 forum. Etc.

It has nothing to do with the topic and is not deserving of respect. Instead, they're just ignorant, disruptive posts better left ignored or alerted. As a mod, you bet I'd pay attention to that.

Everyone is allowed to discuss their beliefs but the ridiculing/troll posts generally get deleted.

reply to post by UnknownPhilosopher


I think it takes a lot of faith to declare there is no God. I have a lot of faith when I say there are no aliens visiting earth..just because there is no proof for it now...doesn't mean it will always be.

Who knows maybe there is a God...not the a-hole version that religious folks talk about but one full of love.

One who gave us free will and thinks that we must work out our own problems rather than stepping in every time we run into trouble to bail us out. If that happened than no one would take responsibility for their actions. That's what the religious fanatics do. When something good or bad happens in this world..it is because God allows it.

Must suck to go through life "knowing" (because they seem to forget the whole free will thing) that their life is pre-planned for them. If that were true...it doesn't matter what a pedophile, murder does in life to avoid their situation it's gonna happen regardless.

Their contradiction on homosexuality is also funny...."God is everywhere and knows everything and only he/she/it can allow things to happen in this life...well except for homosexuality....he can't control that..its out of his hands"...

So an all powerful God who controls every aspect of their life can not stop the devil from controlling their actions when it comes to misdeeds..OK

If a devil can manipulate people then does that also not mean..that free will exists.

reply to post by MrFake

Disbelieving is thinking that something is not there, right? Therefore, you have faith in the fact that there is no god.

But then you could apply this to mermaids, bigfoot, alien abduction, Zeus, and no one has faith that they don't exist, they simply don't believe. Now obviously there are varying degrees of disbelief, from being absolutely convinced there is no such thing to simply withholding belief due to a lack of evidence.There are also gods that can be disproved, depending on how well defined the God concept.

Religion, in its basic form, is a belief shared by many people (Atheism, Catholicism, Buddhism, etc.).

That is a far too loose definition, by that definition most political stances would also be religions. When I talk about religion I'm talking about a set of beliefs and rituals that includes a supernatural element and typically a moral code.

If atheism is a religion than theism is a religion. But that's impossible since nearly all religions are inherently theistic, and yet some religious people aren't theists. Quite simply atheism and theism have little to do with religion as far as their base definition is concerned, theism - belief in god(s), atheism - no belief in god(s).

who places faith in beliefs which cannot be proven or disproven.

I'm not going to accept it because its false. The absence of belief is not in itself a belief.

Originally posted by UnknownPhilosopher
It takes faith in order to believe that the current state of science has evolved to the point that it has cornered the truth on the worlds greatest questions as to the purpose of life and whether we were just a mistake or design.

No one who actually understands science - a category that doesn't seem to include yourself - actually thinks Science has all the answers. Just that it has the potential to find lots, and lots, and lots, and lots of answers to a dizzying array of questions, many of which we don't even know we want to ask.

By the way, the purpose of life is to procreate and perpetuate as much of your genetic material into the future as possible. I suppose that's not as highfalutin and glamorous as you want it to be, but reality doesn't center around human egocentrism.

Mistake or design? Neither; both imply intent (a mistake is something other than what you intended, a design is what you intended.) if there is no intent, there can be neither mistake nor design. Something just is what it is.

As well, you are putting faith in the current establishment to relay correct information to the masses, which in my opinion is like trusting the priesthood in the past (blind submission). Every one has an agenda and a vested interest in certain outcomes.

The thing with science is that it can be tested, and re-tested. Here's hte difference.

Priest 1: "My god said that this land belongs to people of MY faith!"
Priest 2: "You lie! OUR god granted us this land! "
Priest 1: "Your god is but a demon sent to lead you astray from the glory of the one true god; ours!"
Priest 2: "Our holy book warned us you would say that! YOU are hte demon!"
Priest 1: "According to the holy scriptures of our temple, if you will not submit, you must be destroyed!"

versus...

Scientist 1: "My studies have shown that one can generate vast amounts of antimatter by attaching a jar of Jif peanut butter to the electrical sensors on a platypus' snout!"
Scientist 2: "Yeah, about that. I read your work and decided to try it out myself. All I got was a monotreme covered in peanut butter."
Scientist 1: "Oh, I hate when that happens. Did you remember to use the size two alligator clip?"
Scientist 2: "I did, yes."
Scientist 3: "Hey guys. I just tried Scientist 1's experiment, and all I got was a monotreme covered in-"
Scientist 1: "*Sigh* Okay, I'm going to go re-test and evaluate my results. Thanks for your input guys."

Simply put, the only thing we all know is that we truly know nothing. The one constant is that as time progress', so does our science and the minds behind the science.

Speak for yourself; I know plenty. For instance, i know that if I pick up one stick, and then another, I now have two sticks, because 1+1=2. Stunning, huh? I also know that if I break these two sticks, I now have four, because 2x2=4. Surely, I must be a wizard.

Meanwhile you're sitting there and trying to figure out how to move your hand because, of course, you know nothing, right?

You can (badly) quote Socrates all you want, but that doesn't actually make your arguments correct.

So to completely write off "god" (Not a fan of the term) when we truly dont understand "god" nor the universe, appears to be utterly ignorant and rigid just as religion often is.

Well, no, actually, it makes perfect sense.

This is your argument; "I demand you accept the existence of Derpweengoglamoosh. What is Derpweengoglamoosh? Something you can't understand, therefore you MUST accept that it exists. Anyone who denies the existence of Derpweengoglamoosh is CLOSE-MINDED and FANATIC!"

Yeah, doesn't make sense, does it? Look, if you don't have any concept of what something is, then it might as well not exist until you find some way to gather such a concept. And since, according to the "experts," god is unknowable, well then, who cares? it's a non-entity not worth wasting time thinking about, any more than it's worth your time to ponder Derpweengoglamoosh.

To accept something just because someone else mentions it to you, with a total absence of understanding, much less evidence, that's ignorance. Being presented with something - say, god - and coming to a conclusion that such a thing has no evidence for itself and even those who accept it claim it cannot be understood, so it is therefor not worth bothering about, is the opposite of ignorance.

Science brings us many answers but in no way the full picture. Just as religion often does in a metaphorically speaking way. Even Einstein spoke of religion, art, and science being just branches of the same tree.

Actually, science has the best potential to answer everything. The problem is that one answer leads to more questions based on that answer, thus "everything" becomes infinite.. Let me put it this way. If religion and science were given graphical representations, this would be religion, while this would be science.

Science shows us that no matter how big and awesome we think the picture is, it's actually way bigger and complex than that... and then it's way bigger and more complex than that, and so on. Like hte pictures show, science is fractal. Religion however, tells us that the universe is only so big, and only this portion counts at all, and only these few pixels of the image are truly worth consideration, in particular that one over there in that corner; small and decreasingly simplistic.

Originally posted by kerazeesicko
reply to post by TheWalkingFox

 

OK fanaticism may be a little over the top in talking about you guys....but it is like atheists feel the need to tell the world about their belief in no God, like I said state it once and that should be enough...but just posting to state it over and over...is to me a little over the top.

I'll let another atheist field this one;

I know that the molecules in my body are traceable to phenomena in the cosmos. That makes me want to grab people in the street and say, “Have you heard this!?”
- Neil DeGrasse Tyson

it's the realization that there is no one looking over your shoulder and giving you points and demerits for when you die. It's the realization that no matter who you are, where you're from, rich, poor, what color or creed you hold yo - you're the same lump of carbon and water that everyone - everything else on this planet is. Moreover, it's the fact that you can examine and prove these things to anyone who asks. A christian or Muslim cannot prove heaven or hell. A Hindu cannot prove reincarnation, and a Buddhist cannot prove Nirvana; however anyone (well, anyone with equipment) can prove that we are made of the same materials as the rest of the planet. It can be proven that we share common descent with everything from chimps to emus and broccoli. I find that to be absolutely awesome. Really, it's stunning. Not just these notions, but the fact that they can be backed with hard proof by anyone who does the experiments and research.

A public forum is great to express opinions, rant or whatever..but posting "there is no God" is just kerazee stupid....are these people looking for recognition, do they need constant reassurance that there are other people who also feel the same way, or does it somehow make them feel superior to others because reassuring yourself about your "intelligence: is just sad..

Then it seems you have an issue with trolling; that you've chosen to single out atheist trolls seems to belie your claim about not caring about stars, though

At least you didn't put "IT'S OFFICIAL" in your title, I guess.

reply to post by AshleyD


Okay here, I'm new to this site but it seemed like you were doggin him on his thread. If I misinterpreted this, it is my bad. Insight ??

With all respect to all who contributed, Atheism is a result of Nihilism that was predicted by Nietsche a long time ago. How you can disagree with that I can understand (unless you're hating on my spelling). In reality it's not much to argue about and it's very self apparent. Why believe in anything except for our own selves and what does that mean to the reality of our society. To heck with it all though because there is no way anyone can try to explain why this is all a necessity to whatever personal experience. That's the beauty behind it all and I think most are missing it, especially those around here that are way more intelligent than I, I'm just looking for an explanation on how you can miss the obvious.

Originally posted by Kwyjibo
With all respect to all who contributed, Atheism is a result of Nihilism that was predicted by Nietsche a long time ago. How you can disagree with that I can understand (unless you're hating on my spelling). In reality it's not much to argue about and it's very self apparent. Why believe in anything except for our own selves and what does that mean to the reality of our society. To heck with it all though because there is no way anyone can try to explain why this is all a necessity to whatever personal experience. That's the beauty behind it all and I think most are missing it, especially those around here that are way more intelligent than I, I'm just looking for an explanation on how you can miss the obvious.

Actually, atheism isn't a result of anything...

You are born an atheist. You only 'become' religious after it is taught/indoctrinated.

reply to post by Kwyjibo


I see this argument often. it amounts to "if there is no heaven and no god, then why bother living?"

To which I reply, "Because I think cupcakes taste good."

Frankly arguments like this one - and the old "How can you have no morals without religion?" speaks much louder about hte mentality of the religious people using them, than the people they're trying to argue against.

Seriously, if you feel there is no point to life without god, then I have nothing but the deepest pity for you.

reply to post by blujasper


Yeah, I was actually agreeing with his/her points about trolls. Not dogging the OP. No worries. Welcome to ATS.

All I have to say is: count the threads.

Count how many are started by Believers to put down Atheists.

Compare those threads to how many are started by Atheists to put down Believers.

To Buttercookie sorry i was not born an atheist and I"m sorry if I exlempify that position but you are wrong, and without being too belligernent about it, I would accept more from you. Also "Thewalkingfox" is full of a bunch of crap, forgive my language, your philosophical argument is full of holes. And I don't mean that as any love to you guys, but you're a bunch of egocentric assholes who don't know what they're talking about and to heck with the reality of this crap.

Edit to add, my use of the real use of your sucks

Seriously thats your argumernt, count as many threads as anyone wants to, I'm not tryting to prove anything and you're full of crap but there's goal to argue it unless you respond, but obviously you're full of crap, deal with that and respond accordingly.


I edit to add that this is the result of another contribution

Originally posted by Kwyjibo
To Buttercookie sorry i was not born an atheist and I"m sorry if I exlempify that position but you are wrong, and without being too belligernent about it, I would accept more from you. Also "Thewalkingfox" is full of a bunch of crap, forgive my language, your philosophical argument is full of holes. And I don't mean that as any love to you guys, but you're a bunch of egocentric assholes who don't know what they're talking about and to heck with the reality of this crap.

Edit to add, my use of the real use of your sucks

edit on 8-6-2011 by Kwyjibo because: (no reason given)

I think I'll put that on my resume.

...See, folks? This is the best they've got.