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Either God is not Love or Yahweh is not God.

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posted on Jun, 12 2011 @ 07:03 AM
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Originally posted by Vicky32

Originally posted by gabby2011


Seems to me the God of your bible , this "omnipresent" God, promises a life of "NO PAIN" ,as reward? For what ? enduring a life full of it? When you honestly think about it, this God does seem to portray some rather masochistic type tendencies , which I find rather distasteful ,and quite sad.
edit on 10-6-2011 by gabby2011 because: (no reason given)

What are you talking about? Oh, I assume, the afterlife...
The point is, however, that 99% of the pain we experience in the world, is inflicted by our fellow humans! What do you want God to do about that? Get rid of them for you?
But what if they're asking the same about you? It's like the whole praying about rain thing.
Doug prays for rain, because he wants his garden to flourish.
Libby prays that it won't rain so that she and her fellow office workers can have a picnic.
God says "huh"? (In reality, weather is a chaotic system that God simply lets work as it will, and has no interest in prayers about it.)
Right now, there are a few humans I would seriously like to have rendered unable to act.. the point is, they may well say the same about me!

When one of my sons was 5 and his brother was 15, they both came to me on the same evening (when they had been bickering for 12 hours straight!) and accused me of loving the other one better.
So what do you want God to do?



Once again (though I'm not surprised ) you totally miss the point. God has intervened with mans ways in the bible. And I'm not saying he get rid of humans (though some do need to be wiped off the face of the earth,if they have no remorse)..He could find a way to block the horrible abuse they instill on small innocent minds. After all he is god..no? I'm sure he could see with reason with preventing these young ones from being totally manipulated,and mind controlled, through torture and abuse, resulting in they themselves become perpetrators of evil. We are not talking about petty differences here vicky..we are talking about serious and mind altering abuse. Big difference. You might be one to pray for people for the demise of people you don't care for, I am not. What I am inclined to wish for is the prevention of the terrible abuse of children. I think a loving father figure who is God would want the same, and would be able to find the ways to do so.




posted on Jun, 13 2011 @ 09:51 AM
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"Once again (though I'm not surprised ) you totally miss the point. God has intervened with mans ways in the bible."

When some religious people use phrases such as "man's ways" it indicates a fundamental ignorance that men should dominate society. It is the same reason some religious people also call God a father and a son. Primitive people such as this do not acknowledge that women have as much to contribute intellectually as any men. But since men are strong and strength always prevails in a primitive group -- well, there you have it. One day a country with a brilliant woman president with brilliant men and women advisers will wipe these primitive groups off the face of the Earth.



posted on Jun, 13 2011 @ 11:03 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


I'd say that's a close to reasonable assessment of "good", though I'd refine it the same way Sam Harris does.

Harris has argued one simple fact for secular morality: "We can assume that the greatest possible suffering for everyone is the worst possible outcome", and that's not a difficult position to defend.

He specifically argues that good should be defined in terms of a moral landscape with peaks and valleys, which is a pretty good idea. His definition of good is even better as it replaces "pain" with "suffering" and "pleasure" with "flourishing".

Reduce suffering, increase flourishing. That's what is good.



posted on Jun, 13 2011 @ 11:07 AM
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reply to post by Vicky32
 


I reference the KJV because there are quite a few KJV only Christians around these parts and I hate having to cite multiple versions, though I'm keen to make a point here, as you ignored the other sections of the text that are not all that different.

There's still a bit of a...well...let's just say Illiad scholars have as much reason to read a homosexual relationship with Achilles involved as Bible scholars would with David...



posted on Jun, 13 2011 @ 11:09 AM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


I've explained this to you, that is not an ad hominem. An ad hominem is when the truth value of a statement is dependent on the individual making the claim.

If I say "I don't trust you, you're a drunk!" that's an ad hominem. If I call you a drunk, that's just a personal attack.

Also, I love how you're taking Mill's hedonistic principle and applying it to all atheists and forms of secular ethics. Very amusing straw man, it has a little red nose and big floppy shoes.



posted on Jun, 13 2011 @ 11:12 AM
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reply to post by Vicky32
 


Argument from privilege. Disaster victims aren't exactly victims of other people. If a tsunami hits me, it's nobody's fault really. If an earthquake strikes, same thing. If a I contract a disease or develop a cancer, another point. If I'm the victim of a poisonous animal or insect, once more. People who suffer a drought don't have anyone to blame either. Same goes for those suffering from flooding.

For some people, individuals are a primary cause of suffering, for others they are not.

I also like how you threw in an arbitrary number in there. Nice touch.



posted on Jun, 13 2011 @ 06:57 PM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by UB2120
 


Ok, question 1: What do you believe and why?
Question 2: Where is the supporting evidence for your belief?



I believe I am a son of the eternal God. The first source and center of all creation. Why? Because I believe the universe was created for a purpose and I was born into it for a purpose. The purpose is to grow, to experience life from self awarness to spiritual awarness. Actual experience has no comsic substitue.

The real evidence is my own experiences. I have been a student of the Urantia Book which falls in line with my beliefs. It describes a vast universe teeming with life.



posted on Jun, 13 2011 @ 11:27 PM
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Originally posted by ren1999
"Once again (though I'm not surprised ) you totally miss the point. God has intervened with mans ways in the bible."

When some religious people use phrases such as "man's ways" it indicates a fundamental ignorance that men should dominate society. It is the same reason some religious people also call God a father and a son. Primitive people such as this do not acknowledge that women have as much to contribute intellectually as any men. But since men are strong and strength always prevails in a primitive group -- well, there you have it. One day a country with a brilliant woman president with brilliant men and women advisers will wipe these primitive groups off the face of the Earth.


I want to make it perfectly clear that although Gabby was replying to me, I did not use the phrase 'mans ways' (sic). I never would! For one thing, I distinguish between 'man' the race, and 'man' = male human being. For another, I know how to use an apostrophe!
Americans almost always used male-centric language, what an Australian educationalist called the 'he/man' syndrome. I believe Americans are taught to refer to all animals as 'he'... which has led to some incredible absurdities when they talk about cows who are giving milk etc as 'he'...

Call that the American language.
In English we would never says 'mans ways'. Ever.
So, please Ren1999, don't be silly, don't attack a Christian for what an atheist said.

edit on 13/6/11 by Vicky32 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 13 2011 @ 11:43 PM
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reply to post by Vicky32
 





I want to make it perfectly clear that although Annee was replying to me, I did not use the phrase 'mans ways' (sic). I never would! For one thing, I distinguish between 'man' the race, and 'man' = male human being. For another, I know how to use an apostrophe! Americans almost always used male-centric language, what an Australian educationalist called the 'he/man' syndrome. I believe Americans are taught to refer to all animals as 'he'... which has led to some incredible absurdities when they talk about cows who are giving milk etc as 'he'... Call that the American language. In English we would never says 'mans ways'. Ever.


*sighs*..Once again vicky , you use generalizations , as well as try to teach us how Americans are taught. Americans do not refer to all animals as "he" . I don't know where you get your knowledge of how things are taught over in North America , but you're wrong.

You may know how to use an apostrophe, but you sure lack insight and awareness on issues that are far more important. You may be a teacher, but I'm happy I didn't pay for any of your lessons.

Ok...now back to God being Love

edit on 13-6-2011 by gabby2011 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 13 2011 @ 11:47 PM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

Argument from privilege. Disaster victims aren't exactly victims of other people. If a tsunami hits me, it's nobody's fault really. If an earthquake strikes, same thing. If a I contract a disease or develop a cancer, another point. If I'm the victim of a poisonous animal or insect, once more. People who suffer a drought don't have anyone to blame either. Same goes for those suffering from flooding.
.

If you pay attention to anything other than your own peculiar obsessions (and I don't think you do) then you'll know that on February 22nd this year, there was an earthquake in Christchurch that killed 180+ people. Yesterday there were 'aftershocks' - one at 13.00 of force 5.3 and at 14.20, one at a force of 6+.
You can't have it both ways, but happily, I don't believe (and neither do most Christians) that God micromanages the earth and its geology.
Maybe most American Christians are creationists, (although I doubt it's most even there) but in the rest of the world, not so much.
I am not a Creationist.
Geology happens, and weather is a chaotic system. Micromanaging it is impossible, even if it was desirable, and it's evidently not.
Jesus said once, in answer to a question that the rain falls on the just and the unjust alike. (Ogden Nash later made a cute little rhyme out of that to the effect that the rain falls more often on the just, because the unjust has half-inched the just's umbrella).
So the only response to earthquakes, tsunamis and tornadoes and the victims thereof is "# happens". It happens because it's necessary. Earth is geologically active because it has to be, in order to generate a magnetic field, which in its turns, blocks harmful radiation from space. Could it be otherwise? I don't know, I am neither a physicist nor a theologian.
Added to which, I know that to you and to Russell T Davies, death is the worst thing that can happen. But I can assure you from experience, that there are much worse things. Being killed in a flood is infinitely better than being swept away, and surviving brain-damaged from being half drowned for instance.
Being killed in a disaster is infinitely better than, say for instance, being married to an abuser, or being ... well use your imagination.
I grew up in a geothermally active town, and had earthquakes rock me to sleep when I was a child. I loathe and despise them, but I fear far more, the terrible evil things that people do.



posted on Jun, 14 2011 @ 10:03 AM
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"I want to make it perfectly clear that although Gabby was replying to me, I did not use the phrase 'mans ways' (sic). I never would! For one thing, I distinguish between 'man' the race, and 'man' = male human being."

I'm telling you to not refer to the human race as man. It shows your primitive level of thinking.

"Americans almost always used male-centric language, what an Australian educationalist called the 'he/man' syndrome. I believe Americans are taught to refer to all animals as 'he'... which has led to some incredible absurdities when they talk about cows who are giving milk etc as 'he'...
"

I wouldn't be so quick to laugh as you are displaying your ignorance as to what U.S. people are taught. U.S. people are not taught to refer to cows as 'he'.

Once again you are displaying your primitiveness. Canadians are Americans. Mexicans are Americans. South Americans are Americans. Anyone who is a citizen of the North or South American continent is an American.

You believe in the religion you were taught and the god you were taught and still you do not research your religion or your god. If you do the research, you will find that the Jesus Christ you are talking about never existed. Apollonius of Tyana and a few other historical people as well as mythical gods are what is known as Jesus.



posted on Jun, 14 2011 @ 11:44 AM
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reply to post by Vicky32
 





You can't have it both ways, but happily, I don't believe (and neither do most Christians) that God micromanages the earth and its geology.


really now..yet more misinformation..(wow you're speaking for MOST Christians now..wonder how they feel about that..lol)

I do believe the bible talks about God sending a huge flood, if that isn't controlling the weather, could you explain what is? Also,he stopped rain in some parts of the bible. Actually the whole bible has references of God being in control of the weather. You yourself said it vicky..."God sends rain on the just and the unjust" ..so obviously Christians must feel this omnipotent God can and has interceded with weather.

If I was a christian Vicky, I'd tell you to quit speaking on behalf of most Christians, just like you speak on behalf of all Americans. You are proving yourself a source that is not to be trusted, the more you post.
edit on 14-6-2011 by gabby2011 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 14 2011 @ 02:10 PM
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reply to post by Vicky32
 


...my what big straw men you have.

1: I don't think most Christians are creationists. They're a loud and annoying minority.
2: I don't expect you to believe that your deity micromanages everything.

I do have a question for you though...did your deity set it all up, or did it just happen upon a naturally formed universe? If it set it up, it's culpable for the parameters of that universe and the suffering within it unless it would be impossible to think of a better universe.



posted on Jun, 14 2011 @ 02:12 PM
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reply to post by UB2120
 



Originally posted by UB2120

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by UB2120
 


Ok, question 1: What do you believe and why?
Question 2: Where is the supporting evidence for your belief?



I believe I am a son of the eternal God. The first source and center of all creation.


Okay.



Why? Because I believe the universe was created for a purpose and I was born into it for a purpose. The purpose is to grow, to experience life from self awarness to spiritual awarness. Actual experience has no comsic substitue.


...this isn't really a 'why'...it's another thing you believe.



The real evidence is my own experiences. I have been a student of the Urantia Book which falls in line with my beliefs. It describes a vast universe teeming with life.


...neither of these is actually evidence for anything. Personal experience is incredibly flawed due to the quirks of human psychology and neurology and no book on its own is proof of anything.



posted on Jun, 15 2011 @ 12:12 AM
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Originally posted by ren1999
I'm telling you to not refer to the human race as man. It shows your primitive level of thinking.

First, please stop being so abusive. Thanks in advance.
Second, please do me the courtesy of reading my post. I don't refer to the human race as man. Gabby does.

As for the rest of your rant, it's content-free.
The Appollonius of Tyana story was exploded decades ago. It amuses me that atheists use and re-use discredited sources. AFAIK the Appollonius of Tyana story came originally from Manly Wade Wellman or one of his fellow Theosophists. It's you who need to do the research.



posted on Jun, 15 2011 @ 12:32 AM
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Originally posted by gabby2011
really now..yet more misinformation..(wow you're speaking for MOST Christians now..wonder how they feel about that..lol)

I do believe the bible talks about God sending a huge flood, if that isn't controlling the weather, could you explain what is? Also,he stopped rain in some parts of the bible. Actually the whole bible has references of God being in control of the weather. You yourself said it vicky..."God sends rain on the just and the unjust" ..so obviously Christians must feel this omnipotent God can and has interceded with weather.

If I was a christian Vicky, I'd tell you to quit speaking on behalf of most Christians, just like you speak on behalf of all Americans. You are proving yourself a source that is not to be trusted, the more you post.
edit on 14-6-2011 by gabby2011 because: (no reason given)

Don't be absurd. I do not speak on behalf of all Americans, how could I do that when I am manifestly not one?
I mention what I have read about what Americans think, and you get upset about it, because you have, as has been established, a great love of all things American...
Like so many people with your ideas, you don't fail to, you refuse to, distinguish between the Old and the New Testaments, between the past and the present.
You wilfully refuse to get my point in my quote of Jesus' words.
The more you post, the more I see you as a wilfull distorter. I simply can't be bothered with you any more. You will insist on horning in on my posts, somewhat obsessively IMO, but I am not addressing you directly. You're back on my "I give up, there's none so deaf' list...
V



posted on Jun, 15 2011 @ 09:24 AM
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reply to post by Vicky32
 





Americans almost always used male-centric language, what an Australian educationalist called the 'he/man' syndrome. I believe Americans are taught to refer to all animals as 'he'... which has led to some incredible absurdities when they talk about cows who are giving milk etc as 'he'.


Here are your exact words on the topic...your words not mine.




Don't be absurd. I do not speak on behalf of all Americans, how could I do that when I am manifestly not one?


Seems to me you speak on their behalf a fair bit.




Like so many people with your ideas, you don't fail to, you refuse to, distinguish between the Old and the New Testaments, between the past and the present.


Well if your saying God doesn't involve himself with the weather ,I would assume you are talking about the God of the OLD and NEW testament..He is the same God ..no?



The more you post, the more I see you as a wilfull distorter.


That's what I was thinking of your posts...you post something distorted....and the next post you distort what you have distorted once more. I'm sorry if you don't like me commenting on your posts vicky , but perhaps if you posted something intelligent ,and thoughtful, I might be able to star and flag you instead of pointing out the fallacies in your judgements.



posted on Jun, 17 2011 @ 08:30 AM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by UB2120
 


Let me ask you:

Question 1: What do you believe and why?
Question 2: Where is the supporting evidence for your belief?


edit on 17-6-2011 by UB2120 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 22 2011 @ 10:23 PM
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"First, please stop being so abusive. Thanks in advance.
Second, please do me the courtesy of reading my post. I don't refer to the human race as man. Gabby does. "

These are your exact words where you refer man as a race.
"I distinguish between 'man' the race"

"The Appollonius of Tyana story was exploded decades ago."

Exploded? Is English your first language, Vicky32?

"It amuses me that atheists use and re-use discredited sources."

I'm not an atheist. I'm a Pagan.

"AFAIK the Appollonius of Tyana story came originally from Manly Wade Wellman or one of his fellow Theosophists. It's you who need to do the research."

I think you need to be silent about that which you know nothing about. You need to cite your research.
www.britannica.com...

edit on 22-6-2011 by ren1999 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 23 2011 @ 08:53 AM
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Originally posted by ren1999
"First, please stop being so abusive. Thanks in advance.
Second, please do me the courtesy of reading my post. I don't refer to the human race as man. Gabby does. "

These are your exact words where you refer man as a race.
"I distinguish between 'man' the race"

"The Appollonius of Tyana story was exploded decades ago."

Exploded? Is English your first language, Vicky32?

Yes, English is my first language, in fact I teach it as a living. Your first language however, is almost certainly American, and so you have the most incredible chutzpah with that abusive remark.
I am assuming you're a woman, because your tone is so bitchy, although I might be wrong, you could be a man with issues...
FWIW I am copying and pasting what Gabby said



Once again (though I'm not surprised ) you totally miss the point. God has intervened with mans ways in the bible. And I'm not saying he get rid of humans (though some do need to be wiped off the face of the earth,if they have no remorse)..He could find a way to block the horrible abuse they instill on small innocent minds. After all he is god..no? I'm sure he could see with reason with preventing these young ones from being totally manipulated,and mind controlled, through torture and abuse, resulting in they themselves become perpetrators of evil. We are not talking about petty differences here vicky..we are talking about serious and mind altering abuse. Big difference. You might be one to pray for people for the demise of people you don't care for, I am not. What I am inclined to wish for is the prevention of the terrible abuse of children. I think a loving father figure who is God would want the same, and would be able to find the ways to do so.

Not that it will do much good, I can see that in advance. Your remark about Manly Wade Wellman supports me, which you don't seem to realise as he was a prominent Theosophist, which is what I had said in first place.
I excuse your ignorance of English, given that you're American, but 'man' was for centuries the name of our species/race.
That's why I said what I did.
Now, stop bothering me. You're on my ignore list.



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