Either God is not Love or Yahweh is not God.

It's often been said that God is love...well, I'm going to argue that the Christian God cannot be love by the outlining of what love is in the Bible.

I'm sure you've heard this passage before. Hell, you might have even seen it as a 'tramp stamp' tattoo, which I found to be most amusing. I'd post the image, but you can just do a Google image search for "1 Corinthians tramp stamp" to see the hilarity for yourself.

1 Corinthians 13:4-8

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.
It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.
Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.
It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.

I'm going to focus on the parts in bold. First, love doesn't envy.

Does God envy?

Exodus 34:14
Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.

...hm...

Deuteronomy 4:24
For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.

Um...

Deuteronomy 5:9
You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,

Well...

Deuteronomy 6:15
for the LORD your God, who is among you, is a jealous God and his anger will burn against you, and he will destroy you from the face of the land.

But...that's just saying that he might get jealous, not that he is really envying something specific...

Deuteronomy 32:16
They made him jealous with their foreign gods and angered him with their detestable idols.

32:21
They made me jealous by what is no god and angered me with their worthless idols. I will make them envious by those who are not a people; I will make them angry by a nation that has no understanding.

Um...so he got jealous because they were worshiping a different deity...he was...envying the other deities...

Well...ok. Definitely envies. Does God boast?

Hmm..

Malachi 1:14
"Cursed is the cheat who has an acceptable male in his flock and vows to give it, but then sacrifices a blemished animal to the Lord. For I am a great king," says the LORD Almighty, "and my name is to be feared among the nations.

Pretty boastful...I'll leave pride alone though. I'll just toss that one right out for the sake of fairness and time.

Lastly, the passage says the love never fails. Has Yahweh failed?

Judges 1:19
The LORD was with the men of Judah. They took possession of the hill country, but they were unable to drive the people from the plains, because they had iron chariots

...apparently Yahweh failed in the face of iron chariots...

So...the deity described in the Bible has either been described inaccurately or is not love. Take your pick Christians....or God is love and Yahweh is not God.

reply to post by madnessinmysoul

I'm sure you've heard this passage before. Hell, you might have even seen it as a 'tramp stamp' tattoo, which I found to be most amusing. I'd post the image, but you can just do a Google image search for "1 Corinthians tramp stamp" to see the hilarity for yourself.

At least she is giving them something to read, even if it is religious!

Love it! Keep it up. . .

Just let them have their religion. All roads do eventually lead to enlightenment.

Until people are ready to relinquish the crutch that is religion anything said against it will either be one hundred percent dismissed or will be cherry-picked into oblivion.

Seriously, nothing you ever say will change their minds, and that's OK. You have your beliefs, I have mine, let them have theirs. Disproving their belief system won't validate yours and vice-versa.

Are you really trying to talk sense into Christians, using there own sacred texts?

They have +5 natural immunity to logic, ya know.

So you're saying the Bible is contradictory.
You're preaching to the choir.

Christians don't even want to study the early history of the formation of Christianity and the origins of the historical Jesus'.

They are not authorities on their own religion. It is easy to refute what they say within a logical and scientific paradigm. So much so that it is becoming increasingly a waste of time to argue with them. The religion and the religionist here is irrelevant.

reply to post by YouDeserveToKnow


I'm not doing this for the devout, I'm not doing this for the impenetrable, I'm doing this for the fence-sitters. Having once been a Catholic, I was nudged towards atheism by looking at these sorts of things...granted, I experienced it first hand by reading the Bible and seeing the inconsistencies.

There are people who are in the middle, up in the air, on the fence, in play, whatever turn of phrase you choose. This is for them.

The bible is full of contradictions when taken out of context.
May I recommend an Audio Torrent from Professor Goldman on Myths and Mythology.
I think his lectures accurately point out the errors in translation and the fact that scribes often translated and wrote their own interpretations of text. That many stories in the bible are actually mirror images of earlier Sumerian texts. The true value of works like this are to show the values of the powers that be at the time and the populations.

I appreciate the Torah etc were all meant to be translated word for word (I think there's a curse attached to that)
Consider we have only had the printing press in the last few hundred years.
I treat these works like I treat any other literature I allow what resonates as truth to the observer to come through the ego filter and what sounds wrong I discard.
The literal acceptance of many passages is IMO a form of ignorance or perhaps it is just a different form of perception than my own. I have found many important philosophies and clues to possible events in the Bible and am not prepared to throw the baby out with thee bathwater because it has been edited and changed over the years.
I think that one in tune with their true self can find the value in this work. Take what resonates truth with the true self and consider those passages that do not as a commentary on someones agenda at the time it was written.

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


Your name says it all... there is no madness in my soul, only peace.

having practiced Christianity most of my life, the last few years of my "journey" have been blessed with new and enlightening teachings.

I have come to know that, for me, Religion is man-made, controlled, manipulated. Was it Clement of the Romans who decided which books would comprise the New Testament (strictly Orthodox teachings) while the Gnostic writings were destroyed or hidden?

Spirituality is natural and comes from God (or Spirit, or Source or the Universe - whichever you prefer).

May I recommend a book, if your inquiry is genuine, for assistance in getting some unique perspective on why the Old and New Testaments differ so much, as well as to how these stories may have come about?

The book is Encounter with a Prophet

A caution to devoted Christians - this book, written in novel form, may challenge and bother your current belief system.

Namaste

p.s.: see signature below

The Old Testament has a lot of Babylonian myth in it.
That's because the Jews were slaves in Babylon at the time.

The New Testament was ripped from the life of Apollonius of Tyana (Paul of Tarsus), a Neo-Pythagorean/Essene(Buddhist)/Krishna believer.

Apollonius was the main Jesus of history.

reply to post by ren1999


I,disagree,I,do study anything I,can get my hands on.I,love the past history of Christianity.The bible does not say 2 different things. The old was first,then when Jesus came and died,things changed.If everyone studied they would know more and the true facts.I,am a Christian,I,have a open mind,I,want and love facts and truth.I,don't just go by hear say......

Originally posted by venusstarlite
reply to post by ren1999

 

I,disagree,I,do study anything I,can get my hands on.I,love the past history of Christianity.The bible does not say 2 different things. The old was first,then when Jesus came and died,things changed.If everyone studied they would know more and the true facts.I,am a Christian,I,have a open mind,I,want and love facts and truth.I,don't just go by hear say......

If you loved facts and truths then you would no longer be Christian.

The BIG LIE is trying to tie the Old Testament and the New Testament together. The old testament god, is a jealous and vengeful god. Says it right there. Demands sacrifice. Rejects Cain cause he grew some plants, while Abel killed some animals. This "God" liked the death and blood better. Hmmm....

This "God" is what you would think of as the "devil" or "Satan". In fact, in the Garden of Eden, he told them not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, or surely they would die. Then the serpent told them that, their "God" had LIED to them, and they would not die if they ate it. Then the jealous and vengeful "God" got pissed and kicked them out. What kind of god is that? The one that Jesus was actually railing AGAINST.

The so-called "Judeo-Christian" stuff is nonsense. It's obviously two totally OPPOSITE things.

I guess they didn't manage to stuff it into my head enough when I was a kid, but it seems obviously pretty retarded to me. Can't argue with them Christians, though. They've been known to kill people who don't believe their twaddle. Seems crazy, I know.

I object to your wording, only because it may confuse people.

We must remember that god is just a word that our race has put on something we are unable to comprehend in the first place. I don't think you are wrong in questioning the Christian Bible, however you should know that Love is the answer. It is more than just a word, it is a feeling. Feelings are vibration, everything in the Universe is vibration.

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


That statement 'God is only love' sounds a bit like the suppositions from another thread where people repeat an oft said 'parable' that sounds biblical but is not. It's another artificially sweetened and watered down gospel that bears little resemblance to the original message.

God has told you something of His nature in all those quotes and it sure isn't the tooty-frooty, candy-land santa-god that winks at disobedience...and the majority of people don't want to read that sort of thing, but would rather accept the word of some men than to listen to the Creator of us all, and then to repeat the error for generations.

He told us somewhere that His ways are not our ways and His thoughts are not our thoughts, and perhaps it's our definition of 'love' that falls short of His...after all we are very small and short-lived, but yet we think we understand it all, an incredible arrogance and pride from a very myopic species.

He expanded the definition of that love in the new testament, and gave us the guidelines to follow as we try to embrace that self-less love amongst ourselves He tried to instill at Mt. Sinai, to be that light to the nations that fledgling Israel failed to fulfill.

This urge you people have to turn your back to God will not go well.Look at the universe,who are you?Who made you?Why do you think you know so much,when the truth is you don't know anything...
If God demands faith wouldn't he made it that you CAN'T have solid proof of His existence so you can grow strong in faith?
Bible is a great book containing knowledge and power,but most important,its a guide to get to know ourselves better,to open our eyes.
When you quote scripture in such detestable ways,you only make yourself look smaller and weaker.Who are you to judge what God is and wants?

I will leave for you a beautiful and most important verse from the Bible that makes your whole argument unnecessary:
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
John 3:16

Lord have mercy on our souls,God bless you all

If "god is love" then why would it demand worship? And if it doesn't get it, you burn in hell forever? What kind of god does that?

Your "God" is the DEVIL, and THIS IS HELL. You will keep getting reincarnated here in HELL until you figure out the truth.

Ever notice how the god of the OT is wrathful and the god of the NT is compassionate. Or, how war-like tribes have war-like gods, and peaceful cultures have peaceful gods. Or, how matriarchal cultures have a goddess, while patriarchal cultures have a god.

God represents, or is an image, of the highest any culture, or individual for that matter, can "see".

Our "image" of God evolves, as we evolve, or as consciousness evolves.

I'm not too sure how productive it is to get wrapped up on a 5000 yr old image of God (named Yahweh) of a "war-like" people (the ancient Hebrews). It was right for it's time, but no longer.

Why not try to form your own image of God that is valid and right for TODAY.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by YouDeserveToKnow

 

I'm not doing this for the devout, I'm not doing this for the impenetrable, I'm doing this for the fence-sitters. Having once been a Catholic, I was nudged towards atheism by looking at these sorts of things...granted, I experienced it first hand by reading the Bible and seeing the inconsistencies.

There are people who are in the middle, up in the air, on the fence, in play, whatever turn of phrase you choose. This is for them.

Thank you from a fence sitter...but it is exactly these conflicting types of messages that turned me into one who believed wholeheartedly in Christianity , to one who sits on the fence.

I'm almost positive that the old testament, or even much of what is said in the new testament is not an accurate description of a real God , if a real God does indeed exist. If that is an accurate description..well..I could never love a God who would choose to punish innocent generations of children, for the sins of their forefathers. That is cruel and unjust punishment in my eyes.

Maybe I don't understand what a true atheist is ..but I am more inclined to believe that there is a spiritual realm , and there is loving positive energies, that I need and want in my life,as direction.

If you mean not believing in God as who is in the bible..I can totally relate to what you are saying...but I can't go so far as to say there is no God, or God type spiritual love.

I really don't want to be a fence sitter , but I don't know the truth , and with so many confusing beliefs on what the truth is....I guess I will wait.....till the truth shows itself to me..clearly.

reply to post by madnessinmysoul

you classify everyone who believes in the same catagory ? then wouldnt muslims be christian?