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According to Christian tradition, Jesus isn't God

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posted on Jun, 7 2011 @ 02:59 PM
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Let me phrase this as a logical syllogism:

Premise 1: According to Christians, God is omniscient.
Premise 2: According to the Bible, Jesus did not know everything.
Conclusion: Jesus was not God.

Now, any Christian might be saying "But Jesus DOES know everything!" Well...my response is to merely quote the Bible at you.


Mark 13:32
But of that day and [that] hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.


So...Jesus isn't omniscient, and that comes straight from the mouth of...Jesus.




posted on Jun, 7 2011 @ 03:09 PM
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Christians have been arguing this topic for the last 2000 years and there are many views: Jesus as part man/ part God, Jesus as God, Jesus as Man until age 30, at which point the Holy Spirit entered at the baptism by John, etc, etc, etc.

I just finished reading the Ramayana - an Indian epic - and it is an interesting view of God incarnated as man. Rama, the incarnation of Vishnu, didn't even realize, or know, he was the incarnation of God until well into his life. Although Vishnu is omniscient, his incarnation was not (always?).

Similarly, in the Christian view, I believe you have the Father who is omniscient, while the incarnation, as Jesus, was not. Jesus was a manifestation of the Father on Earth, through a human body, under this view, which would also jive up with the Indian way of looking at things. There are biblical passages that support this to some extent.

The Holy Trinity - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit - has, no doubt, left many confused over the ages, and will continue to do so.

edit on 7-6-2011 by EthanT because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 7 2011 @ 03:11 PM
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OK, that was very analytical and well reasoned. This is an issue that has been debated for ages and has caused a lot of splits in various religions, such as the orthadox church of africa. But what is your point in telling us this or is it just to make a statement?



posted on Jun, 7 2011 @ 03:18 PM
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Good post OP - I like your posts in general.


Don't you think it also has a lot to do with what "brand" of christianity someone has been programmed to? One of the best statements I've ever heard:

"If you want five descriptions of Jesus, ask FOUR christians"



posted on Jun, 7 2011 @ 03:25 PM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
Let me phrase this as a logical syllogism:

Premise 1: According to Christians, God is omniscient.
Premise 2: According to the Bible, Jesus did not know everything.
Conclusion: Jesus was not God.

Now, any Christian might be saying "But Jesus DOES know everything!" Well...my response is to merely quote the Bible at you.


Mark 13:32
But of that day and [that] hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.


So...Jesus isn't omniscient, and that comes straight from the mouth of...Jesus.


It is important for one to understand the very nature of Jesus Christ and why He came to earth. Jesus was God and is God.

John 1: 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

The Word became "flesh"(Jesus Christ)

When Jesus was here of earth He gave up some of His divine nature not all of it:

Philippians 2: 6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; 7 rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death even death on a cross!

Here is just two verses stating that Jesus still had His omniscience virtue:

Mathew 9:4 Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, “Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts?

Mark 2:6 Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, 7 “Why does this fellow talk like that? He’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?” 8 Immediately Jesus knew in his spirit that this was what they were thinking in their hearts, and he said to them, “Why are you thinking these things?

But of course one would have to believe in the Bible to truly understand it. I hope this helps



posted on Jun, 7 2011 @ 03:29 PM
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reply to post by madnessinmysoul
 


yes i noticed that all the time too. When i hear "Lord Jesus..." : it's like christians forgotten who created the world, who created Jesus.



posted on Jun, 7 2011 @ 03:50 PM
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thank Jude for betraying jezus couse the bible wouldend exist in this form....



posted on Jun, 7 2011 @ 03:51 PM
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It comes down to the word 'ego'- bear with me.


I think often when we imagine the bible stories about Jesus, we think the all knowing gray bearded God somehome covered himself in ignorance and jumped into a body to play the part of Jesus. Then wonder how Jesus was God and yet did not 'know' everything. The reality is, Jesus was much more like us than like God, in the sense that, even though we all come from God, (in that interconnected super sticky star dust idea atoms quantum field zero point yatta yatta) we in reality choose a seperate existence through the mechanism of Ego- that is the root of our freedom as individuals.
Now Jesus had to choose much in the ways we do, how to conduct life in a way that leads to enlightenment, to salvation, to truth- he was a seeker of God, not to know him, but to become him. So Jesus became God after his ultimate sacrifice, he sacrificed his little human self for the sake of the greater self. The point is that behind this idea of Me or you or Jesus or any of the prophets, was God all along- and that is the purpose of the ministry, not to worship him, but to see that we are the only thing in the way of real 'salvation'.

Now this sounds like the element of grace should be mentioned, at least some involvement from "God"- rather than chance and free will. So in my own beliefs, I think Jesus was acending through many lives (re-incarnation) and was already quite advanced, quite pure, when he came to this planet, he still possessed the idea of seperation, his soul was not (completely) with God when he came to earth. Now the reason such a great soul should be sent to such a degenerate little planet in the cosmos? That is where God comes in, or the universe if you will. We needed a teacher, a leader, a jump start out of the kali-Yuga (dark age) we were in some 2000 years ago. The universe prescribed us a teacher precisely where and when we needed it- that is the gift of grace.

Jesus represents what we all are meant to act out- the denial of the lower seperate self, for the sake of an indescribable isolation of conscious- blissfull - existence.




edit on 7-6-2011 by el1jah because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 7 2011 @ 04:13 PM
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reply to post by madnessinmysoul
 


Jesus was god incarnate.he had two natures.that of human and that of god.the scripture you qoute was that of jesus speaking in human nature.this is what christians believe.
edit on 7-6-2011 by Theophorus because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 7 2011 @ 04:21 PM
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reply to post by madnessinmysoul
 


Nope...

Not God, i agree...





posted on Jun, 7 2011 @ 04:21 PM
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Originally posted by Theophorus
reply to post by madnessinmysoul
 


Jesus was god incarnate.he had two natures.that of human and that of god.the scripture you qoute was that of jesus speaking in human nature.this is what christians believe.


"This is what christians believe".

Er, um... no.

It may be what SOME christians believe, but we all know that you rarely agree on much at all when it comes right down to it. If you all agreed on things like you describe then there would be no need for all of the MANY, MANY, MANY, MANY "christian" religions.

en.wikipedia.org...



posted on Jun, 7 2011 @ 04:51 PM
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reply to post by the4thhorseman
 



So Jesus is God...and yet Jesus doesn't know something that God knows....I'm sorry, that's just as illogical as the following statement:


But of course one would have to believe in the Bible to truly understand it. I hope this helps


This is a special pleading fallacy of sorts. Saying that I have to accept the claim before I understand the claim is to tell me that you have special knowledge or understanding that I am not privy to due to your position of accepting the position.



posted on Jun, 7 2011 @ 04:54 PM
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reply to post by Theophorus
 


I've already heard of this ridiculous assertion before. In fact, while browsing YouTube in the last hour I noticed that one of my favorite YouTubers had already made a video about this part of the Bible and had addressed this objection. Please, view the video below because I would be doing a disservice to the argument to attempt a better rebuttal.




posted on Jun, 7 2011 @ 06:46 PM
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reply to post by madnessinmysoul
 


Nice video. Allmost as entertaining as a episode of tom&jerry however,not that funny. What the video fails to take into consideration is the fact that what jesus has admitted to not knowing, he elsewhere declared himself not sent to reveal.( mk13;32;acts1;7).your video augument holds no water as to jesus' devine/human nature.im sure you can do better than that.



posted on Jun, 7 2011 @ 07:14 PM
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reply to post by Theophorus
 


...Jesus didn't say anything about revealing in the passage I mentioned in the OP, he talked about knowledge, he said that he was absent of knowledge. He didn't say his human nature, he said the Son. He didn't differentiate between his natures, he simply said that he had no knowledge on the subject. Even if you say the logos is separate, he said that the father had exclusive knowledge of the subject...and the logos is not the father.

If Jesus hadn't said that this knowledge wasn't the exclusive realm of the Father, you might have a point. Unfortunately for you, that statement is in the Bible twice.



posted on Jun, 7 2011 @ 07:41 PM
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reply to post by madnessinmysoul
 
Contemporary thinking says man is the product of evolution. But the Bible says we were created by a personal God to love, serve, and enjoy endless fellowship with Him

The New Testament reveals it was Jesus Himself who created everything (John 1:3; Colossians 1:16). Therefore He also owns and rules everything (Psalm 103:19). That means He has authority over our lives and we owe Him absolute allegiance, obedience, and worship.

Romans 10:9 says, "If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved." Confessing Jesus as Lord means humbly submitting to His authority (Philippians 2:10-11). Believing that God has raised Him from the dead involves trusting in the historical fact of His resurrection--the pinnacle of Christian faith and the way the Father affirmed the deity and authority of the Son (Romans 1:4; Acts 17:30-31).

True faith is always accompanied by repentance from sin. Repentance is more than simply being sorry for sin. It is agreeing with God that you are sinful, confessing your sins to Him, and making a conscious choice to turn from sin and pursue holiness (Isaiah 55:7). Jesus said, "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments" (John 14:15); and "If you abide in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine" (John 8:31).

It isn't enough to believe certain facts about Christ. Even Satan and his demons believe in the true God (James 2:19), but they don't love and obey Him. Their faith is not genuine. True saving faith always responds in obedience (Ephesians 2:10).

Jesus is the sovereign Lord. When you obey Him you are acknowledging His lordship and submitting to His authority. That doesn't mean your obedience will always be perfect, but that is your goal. There is no area of your life that you withhold from Him.

JESUS IS THE JUDGE

All who reject Jesus as their Lord and Savior will one day face Him as their Judge: "God is now declaring to men that all everywhere should repent, because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead" (Acts 17:30-31).

Second Thessalonians 1:7-9 says, "The Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.
While Jesus was on earth there was much confusion about who He was. Some thought He was a wise man or a great prophet. Others thought He was a madman. Still others couldn't decide or didn't care. But Jesus said, "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30). That means He claimed to be nothing less than God in human flesh.

Many people today don't understand that Jesus claimed to be God. They're content to think of Him as little more than a great moral teacher. But even His enemies understood His claims to deity. That's why they tried to stone Him to death (John 5:18; 10:33) and eventually had Him crucified (John 19:7).

Who is Jesus? He Was 100% Man...www.allaboutjesuschrist.org...

According to John 1:14, Jesus became flesh and made His dwelling among us. Why is His humanity so important? In Hebrews 4:15, Jesus was tempted in every way, just as we are. As such, Jesus can sympathize with our weakness as humans. What can we learn from the way Jesus handled temptation? According to 1 John 3:5, Jesus came to earth in human form so that He could die a physical death and take away our sins. How would we all be affected, if we had no potential for escape from our sins?
Jesus is the key to membership in God’s family. When He stooped to our level by becoming a man, He made it possible for us to relate to Him and for God to relate to us through Him.
Who is Jesus? He Was 100% God
Who is Jesus, and how was it possible that Christ’s human body held the whole deity and glory of God?

According to John 1:1-3, Jesus existed from the beginning. From the beginning, Jesus was with God, and Jesus was God. Here, the Bible establishes the inseparable nature of Jesus and the God of the Universe. The following verses provide further evidence that Jesus is 100% God:

Highlights of Christ's Time on Earth & the verses:
· Miracles: Luke 7:22
· Eyewitnesses to His perfect life: Matthew 16:13-17
· Fulfillment of Prophecy: Matthew 13:14, Luke 24:44
· Jesus' own identification/claim: John 10:30-38, Matthew 16:13-
17, Mark 14:61-64
· Claims of Christ's followers: Hebrews 1:8, Colossians 1:16, John
12:40 (quoting Isaiah 6:1-10)
· Resurrection: Luke 24:39, Mark 8:31, Acts 17:32
Jesus is the key to membership in God’s family. When He established His deity by rising from the grave, He made it possible for us to have forgiveness from sin and a renewed relationship with God.

Who is Jesus? He is the Way to Heaven
Who is Jesus, and why is He the only path to salvation?

In John 14:6, Jesus declares: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” Why is it important to know that NO other religious leaders throughout history have ever made these claims? According to Ephesians 2:8-9, “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast.” How does this contrast with other world religions which are based on “works” versus faith in Jesus and the resurrection? If we can’t build a relationship with God by doing good deeds or repeating rituals, what must we do? Acts 4:12 is clear, “Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.”



posted on Jun, 7 2011 @ 07:48 PM
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reply to post by venusstarlite
 


Did Jesus Say He Was God?

The gospel of John, which presents Jesus Christ in His deity, is sometimes called the "I AM" book. Over and over again in the book of John, Jesus said, "I AM." To the learned Jew this phrase "I AM" was very significant. It was a claim by Jesus that He is God. Why? In the Old Testament when God called Moses to lead the nation of Israel out of Egypt, He told Moses to tell the nation that "I AM" has sent you (Exodus 3:13-15). "I AM" is the covenant God of Israel, Jehovah! Therefore, the great "I AM" is the designation for God to the nation of Israel and Jesus' statement "I AM" is a clear indication that He was saying, "I AM God."

Did Jesus say He was God? Jesus claimed equality with the God the Father. "Jesus said to them, 'My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working.' For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God" (John 5:17-18).

"Then Jesus, still teaching in the temple courts, cried out, 'Yes, you know me, and you know where I am from. I am not here on my own, but he who sent me is true. You do not know him, but I know him because I am from him and he sent me'" (John 7:28-29).

"Then they asked him, 'Where is your father?' 'You do not know me or my Father,' Jesus replied. 'If you knew me, you would know my Father also'" (John 8:19) "'I tell you the truth,' Jesus answered, 'before Abraham was born, I am!'" (John 8:58). "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30).

Therefore the Jews certainly understood that Jesus was claiming to be God and they sought to kill Him because of it. "'What about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, "I am God's Son"? Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.' Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp." (John 10:36-39). This is just one incident where the Jewish authority sought to take Jesus or to stone Him and He escaped out of their hands because His time had not yet come (John 8:20).

Jesus also affirmed His deity to the disciples. "'If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.' Philip said, 'Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.' Jesus answered: 'Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, "Show us the Father"? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.'" (John 14:7-11, 20).

The seventeenth chapter of John records Jesus Christ's high priestly prayer. "After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: 'Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began'" (John 17:1-5).

In this wonderful prayer, Jesus says, "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me" (John 17:20-21). Did Jesus say that He was God? Yes! Amen!












edit on 7-6-2011 by venusstarlite because: www.allaboutjesuschrist.org...



posted on Jun, 7 2011 @ 08:24 PM
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reply to post by madnessinmysoul
 

What is your argument? That jesus cant be god because he claims to not have the fathers knowledge? This would be a good argument if we were talking about two distinct persons with two distinct natures.the argument still holds true if we were talking about two distinct persons with the same nature.truth is,is that jesus and god are two distinct persons who share the same nature.that being gods nature.just because jesus exhibits his human nature by not knowing something,does not mean hes not the same nature as god.thus being god.
edit on 7-6-2011 by Theophorus because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 7 2011 @ 09:37 PM
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reply to post by venusstarlite
 



Did Jesus say that He was God? Yes! Amen!


Wrong...

Never once did he claim to be God...

And he always speaks of God or "the Father" as a seperate entity...




posted on Jun, 7 2011 @ 11:20 PM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
Let me phrase this as a logical syllogism:

Premise 1: According to Christians, God is omniscient.
Premise 2: According to the Bible, Jesus did not know everything.
Conclusion: Jesus was not God.

Now, any Christian might be saying "But Jesus DOES know everything!" Well...my response is to merely quote the Bible at you.


Mark 13:32
But of that day and [that] hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.


So...Jesus isn't omniscient, and that comes straight from the mouth of...Jesus.

I suggest you google 'kenosis'. That's all that need be said, really, but for the hard-of-thinking, I'll add an explanation...
When Jesus came to be born as a baby, he 'emptied himself' of his omniscience, by choice.
Here are some links
The meaning of kenosis
Wikipedia for those who insist on it




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