Central Europe & Balkans

I'm trying to learn about the situation and the history of Central Europe and the Balkans. I have no pre-conceived opinions, except that I believe that the "official" lines we get here in the US are at very least oversimplifications, if not flat out lies.

I've been reading articles on some good news analysis sites (like globalresearch) that have stated that the domestic economies of the region have been plundered heavily by the IMF and western banking monstrosities (which doesn't surprise me), and that much of the situation has long been misrepresented by the US and NATO. The Balkan war really disturbed me- I didn't feel we were getting the truth. Here's one article- and there are quite a few more I'll link if anybody cares to get into a discussion on this.

www.globalresearch.ca...

My understanding of the history of the region is mostly rooted in what I've studied of the 17th century and the 30 years war, and the picture I got from that was that of a region stuck between a rock and a hard place- the Ottomans and the Holy Roman Empire. Now that may all be just old history with no real relevance to today's situation- but then again it might be important.

I'd greatly appreciate hearing from anybody who's actually from this part of the world, as well as anyone else who has any real knowledge and understanding. I'd like some book recommendations, too (and not just new publications, either- I can often find older books if I know what I'm looking for).





www.globalresearch.ca...

reply to post by seaside sky

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reply to post by seaside sky


Hi there,

first post ever.

Right now I am working so have to be brief with my message. However, the videos posted above are more than pure propaganda.

Get familiar for example with Srebrenica in Bosnia and Vukovar in Croatia.

Genocide is the only description of the things done in those two cities by Serbian army so do not let yourself be fooled by those videos.

Pure propaganda

PS: will come back later so you can ask some specific question if you want in the meantime

reply to post by Kretenoid


Thank you for replying so quickly! I look forward to hearing from you later when you have time. I don't understand what's going on in the videos- are you saying these are lies and propaganda, or that something else is?

I'll ask questions just as soon as I can figure out enough to know what questions to ask, and I'm very happy and excited that I've found some people who can give me some answers and educate me on what is no doubt a very complicated situation. But a couple of questions for starters: what's the history? Are these fairly modern issues or do they have deeper roots? What was your opinion of the US and NATO involvement over there? And, by the way- are you over there?

I'll get out my maps and start looking for some books so I can follow what you say.

reply to post by Stefanbrzi


Thanks for your quick reply! I don't understand the videos yet- could I have your opinion in your own words?

Thanks again so much!

Originally posted by seaside sky
reply to post by Stefanbrzi

 

Thanks for your quick reply! I don't understand the videos yet- could I have your opinion in your own words?

Thanks again so much!

I don't understand what's going on in the videos- are you saying these are lies and propaganda, or that something else is?

These videos are NOT propaganda. They are ABOUT Anti-Serbian propaganda, which was real, and brutal.
You must watch all these videos to get a glimpse of this MEGA-complicated situation.

what's the history? Are these fairly modern issues or do they have deeper roots? What was your opinion of the US and NATO involvement over there? And, by the way- are you over there?

1. I suggest you to do a research in Wikipedia, it has enough details about Balkan history...

en.wikipedia.org...

en.wikipedia.org...

en.wikipedia.org...

2. The opinion is very negative, mostly because of this




en.wikipedia.org...



99.5% of Americans are not even aware where Balkans is... Are YOU an American?
Where are you from...?





P.S. Feel free to ask more questions.

Oh, and by the way, right now I'm working on reading the back issue articles on that globalresearch site that was in my original post. This site has a lot of in-depth articles and I'd like to hear your opinions. If you have time, perhaps you could browse that site (they have a search engine for topics). I'll be reading more tonight, and I'll certainly have a lot of questions tomorrow.

Thanks again!!!!

reply to post by Stefanbrzi


Thanks for all that! I'll be reading those wikipedia articles too.

Yes, I am an American- from Cape Cod, Massachusetts. I know that many Americans couldn't find the Balkans on a map (the American education system is truly appalling and it's embarrassingly obvious to many people, isn't it?). I do have a college education (philosophy and anthropology), but I'm mostly self-taught. I study subjects that interest me, and ask a lot of questions.

This is a subject I'm getting very interested in, not just due to current events (although that's extremely important!), but also because I've long noticed that some of the most fascinating and brilliant people are from that part of the world - Tesla and Gurdjieff to name but two off the top of my head- there are many more of course. So it all links in with other cultural interests I have. I also have a real fascination for history. I'd like to get to a depth of understanding where all these things might start connecting in some way. Do you understand what I mean?

Where are you from?

Oh- and another thing that just occurred to me-- I don't want anyone to think I'm ignorant of the geography here- which might be a little misleading from the title of my thread- I realize that I'm casting a pretty wide net over an pretty large area- my idea was that there were elements that connected the Balkans with the other areas generally known as Central Europe. My reading of history suggests there could well be some connections.

Do you think I may be wrong about this? Should we limit the discussion to just the Balkan region?

hello, in about five years time you will realise just how intertwined European history is, start with the Greeks. thats where European history started, the more you read, the further back you will have to go.
There are a lot of fair haired Ukrainians, because the Swedes rampaged through that country on their way to the black sea, just one instance of national emigration, another is the Huns moving eastwards into north Europe because the Mongols were moving westwards, it goes on and on, as I have typed, start with Greece.

reply to post by pikestaff


Why in about five years' time? Intriguing... please explain.

Originally posted by seaside sky
reply to post by Kretenoid

 

Thank you for replying so quickly! I look forward to hearing from you later when you have time. I don't understand what's going on in the videos- are you saying these are lies and propaganda, or that something else is?

I'll ask questions just as soon as I can figure out enough to know what questions to ask, and I'm very happy and excited that I've found some people who can give me some answers and educate me on what is no doubt a very complicated situation. But a couple of questions for starters: what's the history? Are these fairly modern issues or do they have deeper roots? What was your opinion of the US and NATO involvement over there? And, by the way- are you over there?

I'll get out my maps and start looking for some books so I can follow what you say.

Hi Sky,



First of all let me say that yes I am from Balkan from a country named Croatia.

Second, you asked about the history from this geographical region. This is the only point I can agree with Stefan, it is indeed a MEGA complicated story and a mega broad topic.

Therefore, for a start up lets talk about the vids Stefan posted, while in the same time I have one question for Stefan later on.

In order to understand the recent history and all the happenings you have to google former Yugoslavia country.

Yugoslavia was something like former Russia. Different nationalities, religions and cultures in one country. Today those countries are: Slovenia, Croatia, Serbia, Macedonia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, and Montenegro. There is one large difference with Russia, the territorial issues where settled at the time with a pretty nasty war.

Here pops up my question for Stefan and for you Sky this is a lead where you can start up with reading upon modern history from Balkan.

Stefan, how come do you post such ignorant posts when I am sure that you are aware of Serbian war path.

Serbia war path:

1# Slovenia - small skirmish for 2 weeks, army moved to Croatia
2# Croatia – few years and dozen of genocides
3# Bosnia and Herzegovina – few years and many genocides ( city of Srebrenica named by Euro countries the largest genocide from WW2)
4# Kosovo – less than a year but also few genocides

After attacking country by country, Kosovo was the breaking point where NATO and USA stepped in and bombed Serbia.

So Stefan please tell me, how come is Serbia being attacked according to your vids when not one foot of any army did not went into Serbia. Serbia was present in all those countries committing multiple genocides but not one foreign soldier has went to Serbia. Really funny how you did not mentioned that.

For the record, I believe that the western countries where the main reason for the breakup of the former Yugoslavia and causing a war. Similar to the middle east today. When the war (1991) started there where some Blackwater employees present in our country. What where Blackwater mercenaries doing here in 1991!

Today, obviously the World bank, IMF foreign corporations have bought everything that was worth for pocket change. For example, in the post war period Croatia has invested around 11 billions dollars into revitalization of the state banks and few years after, 95% of them where sold for less then 1 billion. Again, very funny story! As you can see Sky, the octopus is not present only in USA it's everywhere.

Today, we are again traveling to Serbia, they are traveling to Croatia. We are close business partners, we even share some sport leagues. So the only reasonable question would be, what was the point of the war.

Propaganda created the war, that is why I cannot comprehend that people are still divided by politics. Again, a vivid example is the USA, Dems vs Reps while they both piss on your head!

Today I ask myself why did we had to lose our friends, family and countrymen! I mean all of us, Serbians, Croatians and B&H people please let me know Stefan.


PS: sorry for my English since its not my first nor native language

reply to post by seaside sky


Hi

"Are these fairly modern issues or do they have deeper roots?"

Forgot to answer. Of course all these issues have deeper roots. For example google this header: "Assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria"

He was killed by a Serbian assassins and some of the historians consider this as the start of WW1.

If you want to know more try to read "A CENTURY OF WAR by F. William Engdahl (Pluto Press Ltd.)"

Seems like the best description of modern "oil" history and the book ties in all the involved parties from former Yugoslavia.

reply to post by Kretenoid


Thanks for the recommendations (and by the way, your English is excellent- you are far more fluent in foreign languages than most of us Americans are, and I appreciate that you'd make the effort to communicate with me at all- I'm a bit embarrassed that I can't speak to you in your own language).

Your post just previous to this contains a lot of information that I really have to read carefully and think about before I can say anything! Lots of information there-- thanks (and please post more!) Both you and Stefan! Thanks!

The evil octopus is everywhere, isn't it? It's throttling everyone, everywhere, Americans included (most of us are not in the upper classes that benefit from the plundering and we're rather being plundered ourselves). I'd read some articles, I believe they were on globalresearch - I'm trying to locate them- that really laid out the death trap the global financial octopus has for years been putting on the domestic economies throughout the former Yugoslavia and the Balkans. It wouldn't surprise me. You would say that's true?

I knew about the Archduke- assassination that lit the fuse on WWI. Did you hear that he may have had a premonition about what was going to happen to him? I read somewhere that he'd written a rather mysterious letter just prior to the assassination - like he knew what was coming. I forget the details, perhaps you know.

Now going back a long long way - the region was for ages in a difficult spot getting squeezed by the Holy Roman Empire and the Ottoman Empire, wasn't it? I read quite a bit of the 17th century history in connection with the 30 years war. Very complicated- the reason I cast a fairly wide net on the title of this thread was that there seemed, historically, to be some strong connections throughout the countries in this old inter-empire frontier (well, at least it was called the frontier by the imperialists who aimed to conquer it) Is this all just ancient history or does it have some bearing on the hostilities of modern times?

How are things there now?

reply to post by Kretenoid


I didn't know about Blackwater mercenaries- but it wouldn't surprise me. Sounds like they were actually trying to destabilize things. I'm so very sorry that it all seems to be originating from over here- do people understand as well as you do that Americans aren't all like that? You're quite right about the Republican/Democrat observation you made. I couldn't have phrased it any better myself.

The trouble is, of course, is that America isn't really much of a democracy or republic any more. It's a plutocracy. The financial empire quite literally owns the government (including getting the government to send troops and spooks overseas to do its dirty work), it controls the media and the education system (thus ensuring that most Americans remain rather ignorant and trapped in tv brain consumerism) and it's all just a real damn shame! Do people over there hate us all?

Originally posted by seaside sky



This is a subject I'm getting very interested in, not just due to current events (although that's extremely important!), but also because I've long noticed that some of the most fascinating and brilliant people are from that part of the world - Tesla and Gurdjieff to name but two off the top of my head- there are many more of course.

Hi seaside sky, allow me to correct you in misplacing Gurjieff. Gurjieff was Armenian, born in times when Persian part of Armenia was given to the Russian Empire. Therefore people often think he was actually russian. Seems that Armenian history was equaly complicated as it is here in Central Europe/Balkans.
Greetings from Croatia

Originally posted by seaside sky
reply to post by Stefanbrzi

 

Thanks for all that! I'll be reading those wikipedia articles too.

Yes, I am an American- from Cape Cod, Massachusetts. I know that many Americans couldn't find the Balkans on a map (the American education system is truly appalling and it's embarrassingly obvious to many people, isn't it?). I do have a college education (philosophy and anthropology), but I'm mostly self-taught. I study subjects that interest me, and ask a lot of questions.

This is a subject I'm getting very interested in, not just due to current events (although that's extremely important!), but also because I've long noticed that some of the most fascinating and brilliant people are from that part of the world - Tesla and
to name but two off the top of my head- there are many more of course. So it all links in with other cultural interests I have. I also have a real fascination for history. I'd like to get to a depth of understanding where all these things might start connecting in some way. Do you understand what I mean?

Where are you from?

I'm from Serbia.

Gurdjieff

He has nothing to do with Balkans, or Central Europe. He was Russian.

Do you understand what I mean?

Absolutely.


You are atypical American, completely different from the mainstream stereotype, so to say...

Europe has very rich and long history (except Switzerland, of course), so there are many European regions to be explored and many events to be learned...

But the Balkans is absolutely the leader, when it's about wars. Both World Wars were led here, this peninsula was invaded by many peoples, such as Huns, Ottoman Turks, Romans, Celts, Tatars, and many, many more... My country is the gate of the East and the West. If you visit Serbia, you can feel the difference...

For example, northern part of the country has catholic churches (cathedrals), Austrian-style buildings, and the south of the country is very different, because it suffered Turkish oppresion... Serbia was under their control for almost 5 centuries... A very very long time, and the influence is still visible today. My country suffered a lot through the history, and unfortunately, it's still suffering today. A lot.

There is an area in south-western part of the country, it's called Sandžak, and when you look at the map of geographic composition of religion in Europe (I hope you understand me), you can see where the Muslim invaders had the most powerful influence...

Example:
htt p://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/34/Islam_in_Europe_by_Percentage.PNG&imgrefurl=http://en.wikipedia.org/wik i/File:Islam_in_Europe_by_Percentage.PNG&usg=__L0jWdT_UTh6nI2nvJt8UzxlOzEU=&h=609&w=450&sz=19&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=Bt7Nh4h8xaiHjM:&tbnh=164&tbnw =121&ei=v3TvTZ7nGsSEswanvKH6Aw&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dislam%2Bin%2Beurope%2Bmap%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US

fficial%26biw%3D1041%26bih%3D698%26tbm%3Disch&um=1&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=180&page=1&ndsp=12&ved=1t:429,r:5,s:0&tx=20&ty=76&biw=1041&bih=698

Bosnia and Herzegovina is the most obvious result of Muslim invasions of Europe in the past...

There are so many things, and they are all complicated, and deep... It takes months of research to completely understand the relations between European peoples... Not just one thread.

reply to post by Douriff


Thanks for that correction! I'm so very glad to be meeting so many intelligent helpful people like you! Please write more. I'm extremely interested in hearing from you. I didn't know that about Gurdjieff- understandable confusion, though? He was a fascinating man.

By the way, I'm thinking about changing the title of the thread to Southeast Europe and Balkans, as I think I mis-spoke a little there- I was originally considering the connections throughout a very large area, but it's really looking like it's an enormously complicated thing, and perhaps ought to be limited in the scope?