What the Arabs intend for Israel

reply to post by stavis


You my friend i added you to my friends you speak the truth and are wise. I admire what that you speak out against the Evil Zionists in the mist of all this Israel Worshiping

Google Video Link

Originally posted by dontreally
reply to post by TheWalkingFox

 

Because in the latter case - the Jews in Israel stepped in and provided a home for them. And the others went to America or Europe and began a new life.

In the case of the Palestinians. Ill just quote you Musa Alami

"In the social sphere, the incompetence of the Arab governments has revealed itself in the matter of the refugees. ... It is shameful that the Arab governments should prevent the Arab refugees from working in their countries and shut the doors in their faces and imprison them in camps."

That in no way answers my question.

WHY do you feel the expulsion of jews from Arab nations is terrible thing, but the expulsion and murder of Arabs from a Jewish nations is a good thing?

Your reply, posed as an answer to this question, just makes you look like a hideously bigoted sadist. You LIKE that Arabs were murdered and expelled because other Arabs then treated them like crap? What the #?

Did you just misunderstand the question? Do you not have an answer for it? 'Cause I will accept "I dunno." for this one. People have all sorts of notions that aren't well-grounded.

So I'll ask again.

Why do you condemn the expulsion of Jews, yet cheer for the expulsion and mass murder of Arabs?

reply to post by Dnevnoi


Your reply of retaliation is quite hilarious. Lets look at what the Israeli's were retaliating to in 40's-50's. During this period Israel faced a security problem known as infiltration. This was a direct result to the displacment of 700,000 Palestinian refugee's after the Israeli war of independence. The motives behind infaltration were mostly social and economical.Many Paletinians crossed the border to look for relatives, returning to their homes, recovering their material possesions, tending to their fields and harvesting. On the odd occasion (very rare) they would seek revenge to those who stole their land (this was understandable. Many infaltrators were Nomadic Bedouins who did not understand the concept of borders but rather were used to grazing rights. To this Israel replied with a policy of shoot first and ask questions later. This resutled in the killings of civillians, many women and children.

Search operations were sent to Arab villages which would sometimes result in the IDF commiting atrocities such as murder and gang rape. On one occasion they dumped 120 infiltrators (Arabs) in the Arava desert without water. Israel also used a policy of military retaliation against those states which the infiltrators crossed. Often resulting in IDF forces going across the armistice lines to attack villages and police stations.

Israel blamed the Arab government for promoting infiltration, however documents from Israel, the UN, America Egypt, Syria and Jordan (the documents from Jordan were obtained after the 1967 war by Israel) show that the Arab governments did all that was in their power to stop infiltration as it was in their best interest also. Infiltration was less common from Syria and Egypt as their border was easier to gaurd, however the Jordan-Israel border was long and winding, so Jordan, despite it's best efforts struggled to curb infiltration thus they were often unfairly and unjustly as well as agressively attacked by this infant state which was Israel. However documents reveal the infiltration and the border problem was regarded as high priority and dealth with at the top levels of government. Infiltration by people living in Jordan entering Israel was often dealt with harshly by the government of Jordan.

This shows during this period Israel was the aggressor, unjust and unfair. They were unjust attacks of retaltiation, brought on by a problem which Israel itself created (the refugee problem).

Here is the Ben Gourin archive: web.bgu.ac.il... which has the documents stating that the Arab governments did all in their power to curb infiltration.

reply to post by SpeachM1litant


You are so full of demagogy, hypocrisy and lies mister.

Israel did not retaliate against civilians trying to go back to their homes (which they lost because of Arab aggression and their refusal to accept the partition plan on a land that had NO Arab sovereign state – EVER -, let alone a Palestinian state)

1951- 111 Israelis were murdered by infiltrators from Jordan and 26 from Egypt.
1952- 114 Israelis were murdered by infiltrators from Jordan and 48 from Egypt.
1953- 124 Israelis were murdered by infiltrators from Jordan and 38 from Egypt.
1954- 117 Israelis were murdered by infiltrators from Jordan and 50 from Egypt.
1955- 37 Israelis were murdered by infiltrators from Jordan and 241 from Egypt.
1951-1955 55 Israelis were murdered by infiltrators from Syria and 6 from Lebanon.
And the list goes on.

I'm not saying every action Israel took was completely justifiable, but from this to conclude that Israel was the aggressor, is an insult to intelligence, or in your case, pure hypocrisy.

reply to post by gravitational

You are so full of demagogy, hypocrisy and lies mister.

Really? I thought I was just stating historical facts. Lets look at the facts, according to the best estimates 90% of infiltrations during the period from 1949-56 were motivated by social and economic concerns. The infiltraion was a by-product of Israel's expulsion and failure to compensate the previous land owners. The Israeli war of independence and the question of hero vs villian is a whole different debate which I will willingly have once this one is concluded.

Let's look at the facts in regards to Israeli retaliation: Why did Israel attack these Arab villages and why did Israel attack Jordan, Syria and Egypt. Israel potrayed the Arab governments as sponsors of infiltration, however this is both grossly innacurate and unfair. Strong evidence from Arab, British, American, Un and even Israeli sources suggest that for the first 6 years after the war, the Arab governments were opposed to infiltration and tried to curb it. There is no proof the Arab governments sponsored infiltration.

Examples

-The Lebanese government transfered many Palestinian refugee's Northwards and sealed the border with Israel
-Syrian authorities excersized strict control of the border making infaltration rare
-Egypt kept 250,000 Palestinian refugee's incacerated in Gaza in order to stop infiltration
-Secret Jordanian military documents captured by the Israeli army during the June 1967 war prove conclusively that the Israeli version of events were utterly false. These documents reveal strenuos efforts on the part of the Jordanian civilian and military authorities attempting to halt infiltration (keep in mind Jordan had a long winding border which was difficult to control and many Jordanian lands were split in half.
-On countless occasions Jordan offered to improve border security

Israeli policy of retaliation to infiltration

Israel responded with a policy of shoot first ask question later. Periodic search operations were also mounted in Arab villages inside Israel to weed out infiltrators. From time to time the IDF soldiers would commit atrocities such as gang rape, murded and as stated before, on one ocasion they dumped 120 suspected infiltrators in the Arava desert with no water. Seems humane right? These atrocities were commited against innocent civilians including women and children.

Israel used a policy of military retaliation to punish the Arab governments who were doing the best they could to halt infiltration. They mainly attacked Jordan and Egyp using IDF units. They collectively punsihed whole villages. All the IDF raids were aimed at civilian targets and sometimes police stations. Isn't it counter productive to attack the police which are arresting infiltrators? Infact Hussein who became king after King Abdullah in Jordan reflected in his diary years later, the counter productivness of these aggresive unjust raids. "(They) were extremely severe, extremely devastating, with attacks on villages, on police posts, and on people along the cease-fire line, and obviously I was not very happy with that, and it caused us a great deal of difficulty in terms of the internal scene in Jordan". Instead of aiding Jordan in curbing infiltration they punished a government who was trying to do everything it could.

Israeli policy discotent

Many Israeli's were doscotent with this policy of reprisal attacks as they were unjust and unfair. Most notably Abba Eban who had to defend the official line at the UN and Walter Eytan who felt that the policy of reprisals failed to solve Israels security problems. Moshe Sharett also tried to concince Ben Gourin to alter Israeli policy.

The Qibya Massacare

In 14-15 October 1953 the IDF conducte an operation headed by Areil Sharon a major in the IDF. It was a punishing reprisal attack aimed at Jordan after infiltrators killed a Israeli mother and her two children. However the Jordanian representative denounced the killing of the woman and her children, promised full cooperation in tracking down the perpetrators and requested that Israel refrain from retaliation. None the less Israel sent a unit called Unit 101 to carry out this task. This unit was headed by Sharon. Long story short the Unit reduced Qibya to a pile of rubble: fourty five houses had been blown up and sixty nine civilians, two thirds of them women and children, had been killed.

Sharon and his men claim that they thought the civillians had run away and they didn't know anyone was in the house. However evidence to the contrary from the U.N states otherwise. A U.N observer said "One story was repeated time after time: the bullet splintered door, the body sprawled across the threshold, indicating that the inhabitants had been forced by heavy fire to stay inside until their homes were blown up over them".

Ben Gourin and Israeli lies in regard to the massacre of Qibya

Ben Gouring opposed admiting the IDF was responsible for the massacare and instead issued a statement stating that impatient Jewish villagers took the matter in their own hands and carried out the attack. Abba Eban admitted that this was false but attempted to defend Israel anyway. This was one of Ben Gourins most blatant lies.

Israel also stated that the infiltrators were aided by the Jordanian Arab Legion, however when Aryeh Eilan, an official in the Foreign Ministry asked Yehoshafat Harkabi, the deputy director of military intelligance, for some clear documentary proof that this was the case, Harkabi answered that "no proof could be given becuase no proof existed". He also stated that "having personally made a detailed study of the whole phenomenon of infiltration, he had arrived at the conclusion that the Jordanians and especially the Legion were doing their best to prevent infiltration, which was a natural, decentralized and sporadic movement."

Conclusion

Although Israel did face infiltration and legitamte security threats, their policy of retaliation and reprisal attacks was both unfair and an act of aggression. The Arab governments did all in their power to halt infiltration, however Israel continued to pursue this policy at a time where the IDF had a case of low morale since the failure of minor operations after the conclusion of the 1947-1949 war. Israel was thus the aggresor, provacative and counter-productive in attempting to save the lives of both innocent Jews and Muslims.

reply to post by SpeachM1litant


Nonsense...again.

You are forgetting one thing.
Gaza Strip and the west bank were occupied by Egypt and Jordan during those years.
Yet, those infiltrators did not act violently against their occupiers, but did so against unarmed Israeli civilians.

Interestingly, you justify those terrorists because they were evicted from their homes, forgetting that the Arab leaders ordered the vast majority of them to leave until they come back victorious, and most importantly, forgetting that the terror attacks against Jews in Israel BEFOR Israel was even born. Look it up: 1920, 1921, 1929 and during 1936-1939 massacres.

reply to post by TheWalkingFox

So I'll ask again. Why do you condemn the expulsion of Jews, yet cheer for the expulsion and mass murder of Arabs?

My reply WAS an answer to the question...except i didnt word it as such.

• The Jews and Israel are not at fault for the "Arab expulsion". Who told the Arabs to leave before the '48 war? HMMM?
  
• As i said earlier, the various Arab governments have prevented any solution to their refugee status. As Alami said, they just threw them in camps as a way to make political capital out of them against Israel. The amazing thing is that the western media helps in creating this perception.
  
• How come no one cares about 800,000 Jews exiled - a larger number then the Arab Palestinian refugees - and 50 BILLION worth of assets confiscated - a MUCH MUCH greater amount taken from the Palestinians?
  
  
  Im not going to play your game thewalkingfox. The world owes much more to the Jews then the Jews owe to anyone - including the palestinians.
  
  Is it sad that the palestinians have been treated the way theyve been treated? its digusting that their own countrymen can care so little about them. Isnt there an admonition in the Quran, and Islamic ethics, that a Muslim should take care of his fellow muslim? What is this? Its sickening. Its a ploy to garner international sympathy for the Arab cause.
  
  And yes. dont pretend that what theyre interested in isnt a pan-arab federation. What do you think the Arab league is? 21 Arab states, from Mauritania, Morocco, to Iraq and Bahrain. 21 states, and theyre looking for lucky number 22. I wonder if 22 is the magical number theyre seeking considering the mystical significance of this number - 22 letters in the Hebrew/Aramaic alephbet (which in mystical thought is the grand total of 'characters' in creation. 22 therefore corresponds to the name Elohim, which is cognate to the Arabic Allah)
  
  edit on 9-6-2011 by dontreally because: (no reason given)
  

Again look at the situation of the Jews in the Bible, there have been many battles there, even Samson Battled the Philistines, David battled Goliah. Some say The Battle of Gaza is like the David and Goliath situation against Israel but in fact the real battle is Israel against all other states.

The Bible predicts all these things, it knows that all these tribes and nations will conspire against them, God promised Israel to the Jews they have to settle their case with God and no one is letting them do it, spiritaully everyone is in their way and in the way of mankind's way to finally find peace on earth.
God has a 7000 year plan, we are at around 6000 years and the other 1000 is of peace before the dragon is let lose again.
So the time is near, the time of the Gentiles has been 2000 years.

Israel need to take Temple Mount again but the Islamic Shrine is stopping the most important part of prophecy while it sits in God's holy place. No doubt the Bible predicts the final outcome there becoming a disaster but only because the same forces are at work to stop prophecy and claim God a liar.

Psalm 83
A song. A psalm of Asaph.

See how your enemies growl,
how your foes rear their heads.
3 With cunning they conspire against your people;
they plot against those you cherish.
4 “Come,” they say, “let us destroy them as a nation,
so that Israel’s name is remembered no more.”

5 With one mind they plot together;
they form an alliance against you—
6 the tents of Edom and the Ishmaelites,
of Moab and the Hagrites,
7 Byblos, Ammon and Amalek,
Philistia, with the people of Tyre.
8 Even Assyria has joined them
to reinforce Lot’s descendants.

In the very end there will be loses from this and winners depending which side they take but the world has eyes on Israel and Israel is where everything will happen for better or for worse for man's next step to the future.

reply to post by gravitational

Nonsense...again.

Is that all you have to say? Original

You are forgetting one thing. Gaza Strip and the west bank were occupied by Egypt and Jordan during those years. Yet, those infiltrators did not act violently against their occupiers, but did so against unarmed Israeli civilians.

Obviously. Their occupiers didn't take their homes and land. It was Israel which was in control of it.

Interestingly, you justify those terrorists because they were evicted from their homes, forgetting that the Arab leaders ordered the vast majority of them to leave until they come back victorious

Really? well there is no evidence of this and I adressed the claims that the Arab governments were responsible for infiltration in my post. I guess you didn't read it like ussual. So let me post it again.

Let's look at the facts in regards to Israeli retaliation: Why did Israel attack these Arab villages and why did Israel attack Jordan, Syria and Egypt. Israel potrayed the Arab governments as sponsors of infiltration, however this is both grossly innacurate and unfair. Strong evidence from Arab, British, American, Un and even Israeli sources suggest that for the first 6 years after the war, the Arab governments were opposed to infiltration and tried to curb it. There is no proof the Arab governments sponsored infiltration.

Examples

-The Lebanese government transfered many Palestinian refugee's Northwards and sealed the border with Israel
-Syrian authorities excersized strict control of the border making infaltration rare
-Egypt kept 250,000 Palestinian refugee's incacerated in Gaza in order to stop infiltration
-Secret Jordanian military documents captured by the Israeli army during the June 1967 war prove conclusively that the Israeli version of events were utterly false. These documents reveal strenuos efforts on the part of the Jordanian civilian and military authorities attempting to halt infiltration (keep in mind Jordan had a long winding border which was difficult to control and many Jordanian lands were split in half.
-On countless occasions Jordan offered to improve border security

Once again you are providing utterly false information, although I didn't expect otherwise. I suggest you re-read my post.

and most importantly, forgetting that the terror attacks against Jews in Israel BEFOR Israel was even born. Look it up: 1920, 1921, 1929 and during 1936-1939 massacres.

Zionist immigration started before Israel was existent and these massacares took place in a different context and are completely un-related to infiltration. Nice attempt at deflecting the argument, however you are as transparent as a window and it is not working.

reply to post by dontreally

The world owes much more to the Jews then the Jews owe to anyone - including the palestinians.

Sure dude....I'll write you a cheque..

Just send me a note with the reasons I OWE JEWS..

You're right!!

They intend for a 2 State solution and all groups involved on both sides have already said that once that occurs and the Wars over Energy in The Middle East ends that they will gladly back off and work for a global solution solving today's problems that all of us face each and everyday.

Blame the Ottoman Empire, they lost power Israel became part of the British Mandate and so was Iraq, the Jews took this vacant space as their save haven and the Europeans learned the same mistakes as the rest of the ancient Biblical world in their treatment of these people who have been cast out of their promised land.
In Iraq the Arab and Muslims took their land and they expelled and killed minorites that stood in their way, mainly Christians but all that is forgoten because it is under reported.

One has to think why does some evil Dictator or Leader come along when it conerns the Jews, can't be just coincidence.

en.wikipedia.org...

If people want a reversal of Israel this is what Happened in Iraq.

As early as in the first century AD, Assyrians converted to Christianity. Until 1100, the majority population of Iraq was Christian . Islam progressively became the dominant religion. Between 1914 and 1919, half a million Assyrian Christians were
massacred by Turks and Kurds. After 1918, the Allies promised the Assyrians a state of their own. This promise was however broken. In 1933 at the end of the British mandate over Iraq, five thousands defenseless Assyrian Christians were murdered by the Iraqi army.
Text

www.christiansofiraq.com...

If an example of Israel going to the Arabs and Muslims is Iraq then expect a similar out come, at least Israel is trying democracy and compromise but it is clearly not enough, the main aim in their hearts is destruction for them and let God be the judge for that one.

reply to post by stavis
They have more right on it than the muslims!! But whatever... soon the Lord will come and the more they are under stress they will escape Israel by calling His Name.. the female who run into the desert!

reply to post by Kingbreaker
If you talk about real Palestines... their coming from Kreta.. there origaney name is Pleti and Kreti.

I keep using the same argument because its pretty much a home run.

suicide bombers in P = people that follow themselves or follow a certain terrorist.

Israel = a government that is responsible for its own actions & is subject to international law.

draw your own conclusions.

Originally posted by dontreally


If you cannot understand what i am talking about, then i must conclude you are a crazy person. Either that, or a liar. Are you Arab, by any chance?

edit on 6-6-2011 by dontreally because: (no reason given)

Why are you asking if he is an "Arab"? Would that automatically make him a liar? Your comment as quoted above is patently anti-Semitic.

Originally posted by gravitational
reply to post by SpeachM1litant

 

You are so full of demagogy, hypocrisy and lies mister.

Israel did not retaliate against civilians trying to go back to their homes (which they lost because of Arab aggression and their refusal to accept the partition plan on a land that had NO Arab sovereign state – EVER -, let alone a Palestinian state)

1951- 111 Israelis were murdered by infiltrators from Jordan and 26 from Egypt.
1952- 114 Israelis were murdered by infiltrators from Jordan and 48 from Egypt.
1953- 124 Israelis were murdered by infiltrators from Jordan and 38 from Egypt.
1954- 117 Israelis were murdered by infiltrators from Jordan and 50 from Egypt.
1955- 37 Israelis were murdered by infiltrators from Jordan and 241 from Egypt.
1951-1955 55 Israelis were murdered by infiltrators from Syria and 6 from Lebanon.
And the list goes on.

I'm not saying every action Israel took was completely justifiable, but from this to conclude that Israel was the aggressor, is an insult to intelligence, or in your case, pure hypocrisy.

Talk about an insult to intelligent! I noticed you began at 1951. What about the 357 Arab villages Irgun, Haganah and the stern gang ethnically cleansed between 1947 and 1951 displacing or killing over 700,000 Arabs? Your recollection of history is extremely selective.

reply to post by gem_man


lol

I get you were trying to be serious, but that is just humurous.

Anti-semitic - although a misnomer - only has significance towards Jews. Get over the term if you dont like it, K? There are hundreds of millions of Arabs living around the sole Jewish state with 6 million Jews. One is obviously in a more vulnerable position then the other.

Arabs, if they have a bad name, can thank their own religion for that. Something must be up with Islam if the vast majority of suicide bombers are muslims, or if the amrenian massacres were perpetuated by muslims, or if the serbian massacres, were perpetuated by muslims, or if their religion wasnt so stern. If there wasnt so much internacine fighting between them - Shiite, vs. Sunni, wahabi vs all muslims.. If they werent murdering Kurds, as Sadaam Hussein did, or as Turkey, Iran and Syria have been doing just as well. If they werent perseucting Christians so bad in all the Arab countries that they currently live in. If Coptic churches werent being blown up in alexandria. If Hindus werent being threatened by Muslim expansion into India; hence the battle for Kashmir. Or what about those black muslims and animists being butchered in the millions by the northern lighter skinned "arabs"?

Please. Any sensible, sane person should be too overwhelmed by these facts and figures to say anything but

reply to post by gem_man


HUH? Youre confused.

700,000 Arabs were told to flee the westbank and the galilee when they decided to invade Israel. Jews didnt kill 700,000 Arabs.