Torture. Would you break? Could anyone withstand?

Originally posted by beezzer
This is about real and true survival.

Would you break?

Thanks for your replies.

Despite what you hear from the liberal media, people that do it, or have had it done to them, know torture works and works every time.

You will break if your tormenter knows what he's doing.

You'd be surprised what a person can tolerate in the form of torture to protect the innocent, or their property etc... Maybe not all people, but I can tell you, some can.

Torture is one thing, when that option fails, often the next step is to locate family, friends and loved ones... Especially children.

"Would you break?"... If your child, mother, wife... etc was being tortured, or the threat of them being tortured or killed?

That is another good question, and in most cases people will quickly break under those circumstances.

Originally posted by revmoofoo
Sadly, I have had a great deal of experience when it comes to being tortured and let me tell all of you that no matter how tough you think you are, you will never be tough enough to survive if the persons torturing you know their stuff. I was lucky, I was tortured as a way of conditioning me to do things that I didn't want to do rather than for information (for the most part) and as such I just had to survive long enough to be able to convince my torturers that I really meant it when I said that I'd do anything they wanted.

On a brighter note, I have very few physical scars considering what they put me through and I was lucky enough to miss out on the Chelsea smile that they kept threatening to give me...though I wouldn't have been worth as much to them if they'd made too much of a mess of me. My only regret is not being able to take a shower without having flashbacks and I can't submerge myself fully in water either.

I wouldn't wish what I've been through on anyone...though it would be funny to see how long some of the ATS "hard-men" last. Does that make me a sicko?

Rev

edit on 6/6/2011 by revmoofoo because: To edit.

Sorry to hear you had a grim time of it there.
But my father echoed this posters words.
Although my father wasn't tortured, he somehow had an insight and knowledge of it from studying the ancient texts etc.

Basically he stated that if you have an inexperienced torturer who doesn't know what he/she is doing, then you may be able to hold out and bs your way out of it.
If you are up against a torturer who know's his way around then all you can do is buy yourself some time before you eventually 'talk'.

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
reply to post by beezzer

 

Im sure they could break me using physical torture, eventually. IF I were the holder of some critical information that would destroy what I believed in if the enemy got ahold of it, I would just make darn sure I had some quick means to commit suicide if capture looked imminent.

This is why the allies / axis would, as a matter of course, carry cyanide pills in the event of capture.
Torture was used by both sides (no matter what the history books tell you).
During the NI campaign if the British Soldiers capture IRA guys (during the early and middle stages) they'd be beaten / filled-in to within an inch of their lives, then sent to a hospital to recover and later be processed for court procedings etc.
This was justified because if a British Soldier was captured they'd face torture at the hands of the IRA guys and get even more rougher treatment than that doled out by the soldiers...

When I was in Kosovo there was an Albanian sniper captured. It was lucky for him he was a useless shot as it was I heard he was thrown in the back of a 432 AFV and given a thrashing by two soldiers for 10 minutes.
It would of been much worse if he'd wounded or killed anyone I think.

I think in SHTF you are likely to be faced with inexperienced adversary's for the most part. In the event of capture brutal beatings and casual violence would be the done thing.
So if you do go up against an enemy group I'd advise everyone here to either be on the top of their game and/or elude capture and conflict as much as possible.
Enraging an adversary could stir up a hornet's nest that would cause more long-term damage than you first bargained for.

Originally posted by beezzer
There is always speculation about SHTF scenarios. But one thing in my searches that I didn't see was the speculation of surviving torture. You have a limited stock of supplies. Your friends, your family depends on it to survive.
A rival group captures you. They want your supplies.

This isn't a war. This isn't politics. This isn't about ideology.

This is about real and true survival.

Would you break?

Thanks for your replies.

Beezzer – I know you are in the Military and have been for a long while (Probably fairly senior as well) so let me assure you this is actually a sort of area in which I have a good deal of experience both as the interrogator and the subject of interrogation. I have attended SERE Level C course at Fort Bragg and have taken several Conduct after Capture Courses with the British Forces. I also taught at a British Conduct after Capture Course on an exchange program for their SAS operators and pilots. That was after I went to the course since one would have little credibility having not gone through it – teaching it.

I was even once detained by a foreign nation’s border patrol in North Africa for about 48 hours and it was not a pleasant experience I assure you – all they pretty much did was threaten me and keep me awake cold and afraid but seeing what they could do (to others) and knowing they would do just as they promised was bad enough for some of the team to let the cover story fly. Luckily, we got sprung by the Embassy liaison and this was not even a hostile nation but a sort of ally in the region.

In the conduct of Resistance to Interrogation (RTI) for those forces who are at high risk of capture one constant remained the same regardless of the nationality of the forces I trained or the elite nature of their service (from SF, to Rangers to SAS along with countless Aviators who universally are the first to break in any scenario in which I have taken part ) or their harder than woodpecker lips demeanor – they all break…

This is even in a training exercise with pretty strict limits with a known start and end date and time to the subjects. Some people in training will break character and fall upon the “this is not real” line of thought. The best thing to get them to break is to tell them they will have to repeat the course until they do… Almost universally they reveal something at that point and the only real fear you have injected is that they don’t get to go home to Momma for another 3 weeks. Hard core indeed.
There is some other training that has almost no limits and it’s for a different tier of operator and while my personal experience with it is limited anyone I have talked to in the interrogation community says the constant remains the same.

The art of interrogation is a subtle one and the real enemy in a RTI setting is the unknown. Therefore in training our forces we subject them to some of the more successful known methods and techniques used throughout the world. Because in the end we know they will break and we the best we can hope for is to expect them to hold out long enough for the information of immediate tactical value to expire.

It is the simple knowing (the trained resistor having experienced it to some minor degree) what is coming be it sleep/sensory deprivation, water boarding, along with manipulation and humiliation goes a long way toward the time one can hold out. After all no interrogator starts at 100mph when you could easily get information by cruising along at 60mph. If they start out at the top they are not really after much information – they want a political confession on tape and most will give it. The only difference is in the degree of sincerity.

It is the delay in between sessions in which they check/validate the information (they will blow a cover story pretty quick especially with multiple captives) you do give and the resulting return trips and enduring the increasing levels of interrogation that provide the only successes you as the resistor will win and that is a delay of the inevitable. If an interrogation starts out with inflicting direct pain there is nowhere for the interrogator to go but down.

Pain is in fact what most people think of as torture but that is amateurish and honestly unreliable because regardless if how hard core a person thinks he/she is it is simple pain avoidance response that will result in the subject telling the interrogator what they think will make the pain stop rather than the facts.

As for experience interrogating hostile parties I will comment little but I will tell you the constant remained the same – they all talk.

Now in reference to a survival scenario like your described I think it will make little difference to you what they are after – one likes to think they would hold out to protect family and such but you never will know till you get there.

The only thing you may have on your side is the ignorance of the interrogators themselves – they may just not know what they are doing and use pain in a lethal way unknowingly. If the interrogator knows his art, you have zero chance of resisting indefinately.

The only real method of avoiding some disclosure in interrogation is to not be interrogated in the first place. If captured; you will talk and likely people, people you know may die as a result.

Best to have the ultimate RTI plan in place when it comes to severely wounded comrades when conducting clandestine or covert operations especially that is to put them down so they can’t be captured if you can’t bring them along. If you can’t bear to do it yourself at least leave them the ability to do it for themselves. Also, remember to save one round for yourself at all times.

IN closing, I've been to SERE schools that was bad enough and it was training and we all knew it yet hard men cried at night in their cells and needed psychological intervention after training. No friggin way was I ever or am I ever going to be anyone's prisoner. No thanks!

Also, if one of the group goes missing and it is possible at all I recommend relocation as a countermeasure.

If the worker extracting the information has skill and experience all will be disclosed. That said there are just not that many torture experts walking around these days.

Rookies will likely put the victim in shock and they then will refuse to disclose and are capable not to. Thats why the firebrand was so popular in the middle ages.

It is easy to just sit here and say that you would not break, but the truth is, you do not know, unless you are or have been in the situation.

Chances are you will break down and say what ever the torturer wants to hear, in order to get them to stop...

I am speaking from personal childhood experience when I say, that I endured some very horrific things... Things I will never speak about on here. Things I never wish to even think about.....

I personally survived, but I would say and do anything just to make it stop for the time being... I will just leave it at that.

Hey now,
dont get too upset but I'll have you talking in minutes, and I'll never touch you.

The screams of others, will put words in your mouth.
Especially when you believe it to be your loved ones screams.
(nasty thoughts beezer, nasty nasty)

1 is saddened by the way energies interact within this universe maybe it should close All together none of you need this genetically embedded in your frequencies. Whether it be to consider your loved ones harmed or harming another and this is a universal issue. Damn is there any need anymore when demonic tactics of interrogation run amuk die to fear pain and yet the torture has no clue what awaits the.

Be well and thanks

This thread is f 'ed up. all these different types of torture being brought up for anyone to read.

I haven't read all the torture techniques. I don't need to to know that I'd be a very easy nut to crack. I suffer from CRPS, so just about every sensation gets translated as pain. All you'd need to do is poke me with a chop-stick a few times and I'd tell you anything to make you stop.

And there's the point, sick puppies who think torture rocks! Ha! The reason the UK, the EU and (supposedly) the US don't officially condone torture is not from any liberal ideals. It is because the information gained from torture can NEVER be trusted, unless it is backed up by conventional intel. So what is the point if you have access to the alternative intel? None.

Originally posted by xstatic
This thread is f 'ed up.

all these different types of torture being brought up for anyone to read.

There are people in this world who will torture you for fun and there are those who will do so for business. I wonder... which is worse?

Originally posted by Karilla
And there's the point, sick puppies who think torture rocks! Ha! The reason the UK, the EU and (supposedly) the US don't officially condone torture is not from any liberal ideals. It is because the information gained from torture can NEVER be trusted, unless it is backed up by conventional intel. So what is the point if you have access to the alternative intel? None.

No, the almighty righteous western governments, and the USA in particular do not torture... But they will use "extraordinary rendition", which in fact allows any suspect to be sent to a country where torture is permitted, to be tortured to get the confession or information desired.

Which is worse?

We're not talking waterboarding here... The CIA has used extraordinary rendition to send suspects to foreign countries for the most brutal forms of torture possible, the most extreme, to describe it, or read about it would cause pain.

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander

Originally posted by nixie_nox
They could just show me a fork and I would start singing like a canary. I have a very low pain tolerance.

Lol. I have a high pain tolerance, but an incredibly LOW sleep deprivation tolerance. Ive only seen the sun rise by staying up all night twice in my life, and it was a horrible experience both times. I would crack within the first 48 hours if they refused to let me sleep. 72 hours tops.

These answers are hilarious!! If I end up getting tortured I'm hoping for the sleep deprevation. Since I'm an insomniac they might just have to wait awhile to get anything out of me In all seriousness though, I couldn't say how long I'd last. The best I could hope for is to keep my mouth shut long enough for whatever I'm protecting to be gone. Beyond that, I'm human and I'm sure they could think of interesting things to do to me that I can't even fathom.

It is not about "breaking"...

The human animal will eventually submit to physical abuse....

But the question is...

What will the human animal submit to?...

The pain?
YES!!!!

Eventually...

But what about ...TRUTH?

Torture will only retrieve what it looks for...

Pain only filters the truth from reality when pain is the only thing that exists....


and that is a false reality...

torture is only used by the forces that seek to masquerade as reality..

reply to post by Golf66


My MOS doesn't include any of that (SERE et al) outside of a few courses and some things learned in CRC, the idea of actual torture never entered my mind. Getting shot? Yes. Torture? Not so much.
I'll defer to your expertise.
I just wanted to explore the dark side of survival. Everyone I know has BOB's and ammo, food stores etc. But rarely does anyone think about the people that don't. Those that would be happy to live off the hard work and preparation of others.
Survival takes on a whole new approach, when the difference between a few missed meals by some, may be life or death to others.
Thanks for your input.

Originally posted by blend57
Anyone know if thats true? If the pain is unbearable, your mind will not allow you to feel it?

my understanding is that the reason you don't 'feel' it after it becomes unbearable is because 'you' cease to exist. Not because you aren't feeling pain, but because your very mind has been destroyed. Whether the trauma induced to achieve that is linked to the levels of pain felt or whether its a physiological trauma to the brain itself I don't know, nor do I really know whether the pain disappears when your mind does or just your ability to express it, regardless its not an option if you want to survive let alone being unimaginably awful. Torture is an ancient and well refined beast - there would be no 'enduring' some of the things that can be done.

I can't answer the OPs question because I can't bring myself to imagine being in that situation.

Peace,
-Bob

P.S) I'm going to have to do some serious c-walking to cheer myself up now...
replying to this thread put me in a grim mood

Originally posted by gimme_some_truth
It is easy to just sit here and say that you would not break, but the truth is, you do not know, unless you are or have been in the situation.

Chances are you will break down and say what ever the torturer wants to hear, in order to get them to stop...

I am speaking from personal childhood experience when I say, that I endured some very horrific things... Things I will never speak about on here. Things I never wish to even think about.....

I personally survived, but I would say and do anything just to make it stop for the time being... I will just leave it at that.

Sorry that happened to you. Since I've never been (and will hopefully never be) in that situation, I can only speculate how I'd react. I can only hope I'd do well.

Originally posted by HappilyEverAfter
Hey now,
dont get too upset but I'll have you talking in minutes, and I'll never touch you.

The screams of others, will put words in your mouth.
Especially when you believe it to be your loved ones screams.
(nasty thoughts beezer, nasty nasty)

edit on 6-6-2011 by HappilyEverAfter because: to add

I know. Was in a dark mood. Maybe it's because I'm still angry about how Battlestar Galactica ended.

Just wanted to visit the dark side for a bit.

Originally posted by xstatic
This thread is f 'ed up.

all these different types of torture being brought up for anyone to read.

The world is f'ed up. Better to be prepared than not.

But I do see your point.