I am an Athiest , page 2

posted on Jun, 6 2011 @ 12:00 PM

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I still can't decide whether the OP is an honest plea or just a dare, but if free will is the issue, I personally don't ascribe to the Calvinistic view where God picked who will get into heaven "from eternity past" and either directly or by default (single or double predestination) consigned millions to hell "for his good pleasure" (the quotes are standard Calvinist slogans).

Not sure whether such a discussion would be on-topic or not though.

edit on 6-6-2011 by SaberTruth because: (no reason given)

HisMajesty

posted on Jun, 6 2011 @ 12:00 PM

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umm......ok

NOTurTypical

posted on Jun, 6 2011 @ 12:08 PM

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Originally posted by SaberTruth
I still can't decide whether the OP is an honest plea or just a dare, but if free will is the issue, I personally don't ascribe to the Calvinistic view where God picked who will get into heaven "from eternity past" and either directly or by default (single or double predestination) consigned millions to hell "for his good pleasure" (the quotes are standard Calvinist slogans).

Not sure whether such a discussion would be on-topic or not though.

Not a Calvinist either. In Romans Paul says even faith in God if a matter of His grace. Calvin didn't write Romans nor was Paul a disciple of him. Obviously.

And it is on topic, the OP wants people "to make" him/her believe in God. It's my contention based upon what Jesus and Paul both assert that no one can "make" him/her believe. It must come from the Holy Spirit.

SaberTruth

posted on Jun, 6 2011 @ 12:19 PM

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Originally posted by NOTurTypical
And it is on topic, the OP wants people "to make" him/her believe in God. It's my contention based upon what Jesus and Paul both assert that no one can "make" him/her believe. It must come from the Holy Spirit.

If you say it's on topic, then I rest assured it must be.

Not a Calvinist either. In Romans Paul says even faith in God if a matter of His grace. Calvin didn't write Romans nor was Paul a disciple of him. Obviously.

Actually, Calvin himself understood Eph. 2:8-9 to say that the whole phrase-- salvation by grace through faith-- was a gift of God, not just faith. As for Paul, I have studied his writings thoroughly and found no evidence of an imposed faith or an imposed change of nature or will as a prerequisite for salvation; please see this article for my thoughts on Romans. I have yet to reconcile judgment with free will, and reject the view that free will negates or impinges upon the sovereignty of God.

But it might be enough for this thread to say that there is a longstanding debate in Christianity on this issue.

NOTurTypical

posted on Jun, 6 2011 @ 12:29 PM

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reply to post by SaberTruth

"For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you." Romans 12:3

Faith does NOT = belief.

Faith in God is a gift from God. Faith in Christ as Messiah is a gift from God.

Furthermore, if a person is seeking out God it is ONLY because God is drawing them to Himself:

"there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God." Romans 3:11

edit on 6-6-2011 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)

SaberTruth

posted on Jun, 6 2011 @ 12:33 PM

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Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Faith does NOT = belief.

Faith in God is a gift from God. Faith in Christ as Messiah is a gift from God.

Per the context there, the topic is not salvation. Otherwise you'd be arguing that salvation comes in a range of different quantities: some get a little salvation, others get a lot, which doesn't make any sense.

edit on 6-6-2011 by SaberTruth because: quantities, not qualities

NOTurTypical

posted on Jun, 6 2011 @ 12:35 PM

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Originally posted by SaberTruth

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Faith does NOT = belief.

Faith in God is a gift from God. Faith in Christ as Messiah is a gift from God.

Per the context there, the topic is not salvation. Otherwise you'd be arguing that salvation comes in a range of different qualities: some get a little salvation, others get a lot, which doesn't make any sense.

I know it's not salvation, the OP asked for faith in God. Having faith that God exists doesn't save a person.

The devils have faith God exists.

But according to Romans 12:3 who is the author of faith? Is not Christ Jesus the "author and finisher/perfecter of our faith"?

edit on 6-6-2011 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)

NOTurTypical

posted on Jun, 6 2011 @ 12:38 PM

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reply to post by SaberTruth

Also my good friend, was it God whom began a good work in me or was it me who began a good work in me?

SaberTruth

posted on Jun, 6 2011 @ 12:44 PM

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Originally posted by NOTurTypical
I know it's not salvation, the OP asked for faith in God.

Though the OP did not elaborate in order to clarify what was meant, I had understood that your response was that the OP must wait for God to impose saving faith upon him. If that isn't what you meant, please clarify.

Having faith that God exists doesn't save a person. The devils have faith God exists.

Absolutely. I didn't say otherwise.

But according to Romans 12:3 who is the author of faith? Is not Christ Jesus the "author and finisher/perfecter of our faith"?

You mean saving faith? You just said that Rom. 12:3 was not about salvation. As for "author and finisher", that's from Hebrews 12:2 and is says "of THE faith", not of every individual's faith.

SaberTruth

posted on Jun, 6 2011 @ 12:47 PM

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Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by SaberTruth

Also my good friend, was it God whom began a good work in me or was it me who began a good work in me?

We both agree that it was God. The question is, can you call faith a "work"? Is the phrase "a good work in me" the same as "saved me by imposing faith upon me"?

Don't worry, though such debates typically end in a catfight, I won't be dissin' my homey.

NOTurTypical

posted on Jun, 6 2011 @ 12:55 PM

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reply to post by SaberTruth

Though the OP did not elaborate in order to clarify what was meant, I had understood that your response was that the OP must wait for God to impose saving faith upon him. If that isn't what you meant, please clarify.

No, I don't think the OP should "wait", the OP should ASK in prayer for faith. The simple fact that the OP is seeking God is an indication that God is drawing him/her. No man seeks for God on their own accord.

"There is no one righteous, not even one;
there is no one who understands;
there is NO ONE who seeks God."

The OP asked for anyone to "make" him/her believe in God. My contention is that there is no human on Earth that can "make" the OP believe in God. That faith must come from God via His Word.

"faith commeth by hearing.."

NOTurTypical

posted on Jun, 6 2011 @ 12:58 PM
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Originally posted by SaberTruth

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by SaberTruth

Also my good friend, was it God whom began a good work in me or was it me who began a good work in me?

We both agree that it was God. The question is, can you call faith a "work"? Is the phrase "a good work in me" the same as "saved me by imposing faith upon me"?

Don't worry, though such debates typically end in a catfight, I won't be dissin' my homey.

Salvation is of the Lord, no man seeks God of their own desires. No man finds Christ because they are just "smarter" than another man, Faith in Him is a gift from God.

God saves. He is the hero of this story, certainly not me. He is the one who calls, justifies, sanctifies and glorifies.

And btw, I will never get pissy w/ another believe in Christ Jesus in public, iron sharpens iron my good friend.

EDIT to add:

If Christ Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world were we not saved before the foundation of the world? Point being, when God wills something, it has already happened, He is outside of the space-time dimension.
edit on 6-6-2011 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)

SaberTruth

posted on Jun, 6 2011 @ 01:17 PM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical
No, I don't think the OP should "wait", the OP should ASK in prayer for faith. The simple fact that the OP is seeking God is an indication that God is drawing him/her. No man seeks for God on their own accord.

So, salvation is by asking for faith then? Or is it by accepting the gospel?

Rom. 10:9-17-- That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, “Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame.” For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile— the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”

...Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

First people hear the gospel, and then they respond in faith. It is the preaching of the gospel that God uses to draw people to him. Some do come as a result of a vision but this causes them to seek out either the scriptures or Christians to tell them how to be saved. God does reach out first; no debate there. But faith is a choice a person makes in response to that.

Jesus said he would "draw all people to himself" if he were "lifted up", i.e. put on the cross, and the gospel is the telling of that sacrifice as well as the resurrection. So it is clearly not a simple "ask God for faith" or there'd be no need for hearing the gospel.

The OP asked for anyone to "make" him/her believe in God. My contention is that there is no human on Earth that can "make" the OP believe in God. That faith must come from God via His Word.

"faith commeth by hearing.."

Agreed... via His Word, not via "asking for faith".

NOTurTypical

posted on Jun, 6 2011 @ 01:23 PM
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reply to post by SaberTruth

One step at a time though. The OP is not asking for salvation, but faith that God exists. I don't think it's good to mix the two. Sorry, that's just me, my brain operates on precision. The OP wants someone here on ATS to "make" them believe.

My position is that no man can "make" the OP believe in God except God Himself.

edit on 6-6-2011 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)

SaberTruth

posted on Jun, 6 2011 @ 01:27 PM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical
God saves. He is the hero of this story, certainly not me. He is the one who calls, justifies, sanctifies and glorifies.

Again, absolutely, we both agree on this. Jesus did the work, but we are all charged with telling everyone about him. The reason for the telling is because salvation comes by hearing the gospel and choosing to accept it, not by asking for faith. To preach to those who already have faith is, as Spurgeon said, a waste of time.

And btw, I will never get pissy w/ another believe in Christ Jesus in public, iron sharpens iron my good friend.

Yep. There might be sparks, but we're on the same team.

If Christ Jesus was slain before the foundation of the world were we not saved before the foundation of the world? Point being, when God wills something, it has already happened, He is outside of the space-time dimension.

Then everyone would be saved. As John put it in 1 John 2:2, "and he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world". If being the propitiation for the sins of the whole world means saving them all at that point, then again there is no need to spread the gospel. Instead, I understand "slain from the foundation of the world" to mean that this sacrifice, "once for all", is what God planned from the beginning as the solution to the separation between God and mankind. But reconciliation can never be imposed by one party, not even by God:

2 Cor. 5:18-21
Yet it all comes from God, the One who reconciled us to himself by means of the Anointed and assigned us to this service of reconciliation. Through the Anointed God reconciled the world to himself, not holding their faults against them, and gave us the message of reconciliation. That means we are the Anointed's representatives and God pleads through us. So, on behalf of the Anointed, we plead with you to be reconciled to God! For this One who knew no sin was made sin for our sakes, so that because of Him we can become right with God.
(see also Rom. 5:6-11)

Note "can become", not "were made". Because of what Jesus did, it is now possible for anyone who wishes to, to come to God by placing their trust/faith in the crucified and risen Jesus.
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edit on 6-6-2011 by SaberTruth because: (no reason given)

SaberTruth

posted on Jun, 6 2011 @ 01:31 PM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical
One step at a time though. The OP is not asking for salvation, but faith that God exists. I don't think it's good to mix the two. Sorry, that's just me, my brain operates on precision. The OP wants someone here on ATS to "make" them believe.

My position is that no man can "make" the OP believe in God except God Himself.

That's why I wondered if such a discussion would be off-topic, esp. since the OP is not all that clear. But I still argue that God does not make anyone believe. And I still don't know how a person is supposed to ask for faith before they believe there's a God.

edit on 6-6-2011 by SaberTruth because: added a thought...

NOTurTypical

posted on Jun, 6 2011 @ 01:40 PM
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Originally posted by SaberTruth

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
One step at a time though. The OP is not asking for salvation, but faith that God exists. I don't think it's good to mix the two. Sorry, that's just me, my brain operates on precision. The OP wants someone here on ATS to "make" them believe.

My position is that no man can "make" the OP believe in God except God Himself.

That's why I wondered if such a discussion would be off-topic, esp. since the OP is not all that clear. But I still argue that God does not make anyone believe. And I still don't know how a person is supposed to ask for faith before they believe there's a God.

So it's your contention that we can walk around with our noses in the air and claim that we found God because we are smarter and more rational than the Atheist? I don't think we are. Faith in God comes from God. That is why two people can look at the exact same evidence and one person sees God and the Atheist does not and both of them scratch their heads confused to why the other person doesn't agree with them.

SaberTruth

posted on Jun, 6 2011 @ 01:47 PM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical
So it's your contention that we can walk around with our noses in the air and claim that we found God because we are smarter and more rational than the Atheist? I don't think we are. Faith in God comes from God. That is why two people can look at the exact same evidence and one person sees God and the Atheist does not and both of them scratch their heads confused to why the other person doesn't agree with them.

Uh... how on earth did anything I say come across as making people their own saviors?

Did I not say that God made it all possible through Jesus, and that it wasn't our idea? If I offer you a free trip to the moon as a gift, can I force you to take it? Or can anyone claim you are conceited if you accept the offer freely? I honestly don't see any connection with anything I've said and this charge of making people conceited if they have any free will in the matter.

Heb. 11:6-- "Now apart from faith it is impossible to please God, for whoever comes to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him". Are "those who seek him" conceited? Self-saviors?

Seriously, to make the one choosing freely to accept a gift the other paid a dear price for a case of conceit... I don't understand that at all.

NOTurTypical

posted on Jun, 6 2011 @ 01:51 PM
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reply to post by SaberTruth

saviors

U gotta stop discussing salvation. That's not the request of the OP. The OP never asked to be saved, but for someone to "make" him/her believe in God.

The two are not the same by a long shot. I'm discussing going from an Atheist to a Theist. Re-read what I stated in that context plz.

SaberTruth

posted on Jun, 6 2011 @ 02:00 PM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical
U gotta stop discussing salvation. That's not the request of the OP. The OP never asked to be saved, but for someone to "make" him/her believe in God.

The two are not the same by a long shot. I'm discussing going from an Atheist to a Theist. Re-read what I stated in that context plz.

Then we're back to people asking for faith in God before they believe there's a God, as I mentioned.

To clarify: you're saying that the OP must ask God for faith, is that right?