Golan: Israeli troops fire on Palestinian protesters

Originally posted by The Old American

Israel has vowed to prevent a repeat of a similar demonstration last month, in which hundreds of people burst across the border and more than a dozen people were killed in the unrest.

So I guess they'll just needlessly sacrifice wave after wave of civilians just to get themselves martyred? One wonders how that will work out for them.

/TOA

i wonder how it will work out if we're all judged one day for letting it happen?

Originally posted by Misoir
reply to post by TheWalkingFox

 

Golan Heights is recognized internationally as Syrian territory occupied by Israel and is currently under Israeli Civil Administration. So while the actual claim to the territory is in dispute you cannot just say it does not belong to Israel because two different nations have claimed it as their own.

Uh, yeah, actually, I can unequivocally say that it is Syrian territory and does not belong to Israel. Hell, YOU just said it.

Golan Heights is recognized internationally as Syrian territory occupied by Israel

This is not like the North Pole, some "undiscovered" territory that nations are vying to claim. It is claimed by Syria, and internationally recognized as Syrian territory. Golan is thus part of Syria, which extends to the actual border with Israel on the 1949 Armistice line.

These people are not crossing any Israeli border unless they are stepping over that line.

reply to post by TheWalkingFox


Odd isn't it?

Israel is occupying the land saying they need it as a defensive buffer zone and yet they want to shoot people who just come near it.

A country defending it's borders. Is this really worthy of a thread?
Second line.

Originally posted by manontrial
A country defending it's borders. Is this really worthy of a thread?
Second line.

It is when it's NOT their internationally recognized border that they are defending and in fact are keeping the true owners out by force...

suppose for a moment, that the palestinians got their way, and israel was wiped off the face of the earth, where would all its citizenry go? it is abundantly clear that a two-state solution is impossible, not now, most likely not ever, so where do you suppose to send them? in many european countries, the jews are fleeing amidst fears of rising anti-semitism, america would be an option, but not one that the american population would be too thrilled at (even team israel would probably kick up a fuss about 5 million new immigrants) australia would be an option, but the locals here as is, are not too fond of the jews, and not too fond refugees, so that probably wouldn't work out so fantastically either.

so if any of you have a solution to the problem (backinblack, im looking your way) that DOESN'T involve genocide, i'm all ears. until you can come up with that solution, quit whining, and start thinking.

Originally posted by ktrip
suppose for a moment, that the palestinians got their way, and israel was wiped off the face of the earth, where would all its citizenry go?

Know what's ironic? That the same people who keep telling you this lie, are the ones who committed ethnic cleansing and are, to this very day, continuing a pogrom of violence and cultural eradication; a war of annihilation being waged against the people you've been led to believe "want to wipe Israel off the face of the earth." It is of course, painfully obvious that it is Palestine that has been having its presence on the map reduced, day by day, year after year.

it is abundantly clear that a two-state solution is impossible, not now, most likely not ever, so where do you suppose to send them? in many european countries, the jews are fleeing amidst fears of rising anti-semitism, america would be an option, but not one that the american population would be too thrilled at (even team israel would probably kick up a fuss about 5 million new immigrants) australia would be an option, but the locals here as is, are not too fond of the jews, and not too fond refugees, so that probably wouldn't work out so fantastically either.

so if any of you have a solution to the problem (backinblack, im looking your way) that DOESN'T involve genocide, i'm all ears. until you can come up with that solution, quit whining, and start thinking.

The problem you're stuck with is the initial lie that Palestinians want to wipe out Jews, as told to you by Zionists trying to erase the Palestinians from history. You've coming into this situation with unwieldy baggage, and are essentially crippled in your thinking capability because you're buying into lies unquestioningly.

You're right, a two-state solution will not work; it couldn't have worked even prior to the First Intifada, and now that "Palestine" looks more like a jigsaw puzzle with most of its pieces missing than like a congruous land area, it's certainly impossible in the present and future. You want a solution to the problem? That's easy.

An integrated, pluralist, multiethnic state with freedom of religion guaranteed in its constitution, comprising the current territories of Israel (sans Golan and Shebaa), Gaza, and the West Bank. This nation (Palesrael? Israelistine?) will get off to a rocky start; one can't just drop sixty years of ethnic cleansing and retaliation in the form of terrorism just like a snap of the fingers and expect everything to start fresh, after all. However, it is the only way either people can survive with a modicum of peace.

How to arrive here? That's the tricky part. See, this is what the Palestinians wanted, from 1947 and trying to negotiate with the British and the UN, all the way up to the 1990's, the First intifada, and the US casting its favor with something resembling a two-state solution (up until that point, the US had favored a unified state as well, albeit weakly) Standing in the way is, of course, Israel. or more specifically, Israel's leaders, who work almost as hard as Hamas at keeping Israelis terrified.

First, it would require elected Palestinian leaders (As opposed to the practically Israel-appointed ones they have now) meeting publicly with Israeli leaders and international arbiters and witnesses. Israel agrees to Annex the West bank and Gaza, in exchange for granting full Israeli citizenship to all the people within those territories and adopting a national constitution guaranteeing equality for all the ethnicities and religions in the now-unified state. Basically if Israel wants Palestinian land, it has to take the Palestinians that are on it, too.

This does have the net effect of ending the notion of a "Jewish state" - not by purging Jews or "wiping it off the map" but simply by ending state favoritism towards orthodox Judaism; it already makes no sense, given the number of Christians and Muslims already in Israel, and the many "non-recognized" Jewish sects as well. Personally I find it difficult to understand why so many Americans who would literally take arms if the United States were to declare itself a sectarian nation, who are constantly pissing and moaning about Sectarian Islamist or even atheist states, have no problem with Israel's religious segregation and favoritism. What must be avoided is a religious division of power like what is seen in Lebanon. MUST BE AVOIDED. That ridiculous system was devised by the French with the specific intent to keep their former colony unstable, and it's worked out exactly as planned.

The Right of Return is a very tricky issue here; legally, the refugees of 1948 and 1947 do have the right to either return to their homes ore receive compensation for destroyed homes, or if they choose to remain in their host countries. That's impossible to argue, it's right there in the international bodies of law. The logistics however... well, even a unified Palestine-Israel couldn't support five million more immigrants. And I have doubts as to whether it could provide financial compensation, either. Perhaps the annual $3 billion in military aid the US gives to Israel could be diverted instead to a reparations fund? Give a round number for continuing this payment, say ten years; after all, US interests have been a major cause in this conflict, and it's mostly been US weapons killing people out there. It could be a sign of the world's superpower being committed to the equitable peace it's claimed to seek for the last forty years. After that, cut the purse strings.

As is often pointed out, both sides have committed wrongs; a South African-style Truth and Reconciliation committee would be called for as the first step in draining and healing the festering wounds. Like in South Africa, it won't be a perfect solution, and conflicts will still rise on the basis of old misdeeds, but it will help.

Of course, I'm just a layman on the internet; I can't write out an entire plan for this sort of thing. All I can tell you is that not only is a single state preferable, it's also inevitable. Demographic changes are going to result in an Arab majority in Israel eventually, which will inevitably lead to unification anyway; I think it's best to just get unification out of the way, thus hopefully avoided the majority of the bloodshed that would come from an ascendant demographic trying to take power from an unwilling minority.

Originally posted by The Old American

Israel has vowed to prevent a repeat of a similar demonstration last month, in which hundreds of people burst across the border and more than a dozen people were killed in the unrest.

So I guess they'll just needlessly sacrifice wave after wave of civilians just to get themselves martyred? One wonders how that will work out for them.

/TOA

How did it work out for the Indians against the British Empire....

Originally posted by Misoir
The Palestinian plan is clear for everyone to see. Storm the Israeli borders then take out the cameras and camcorders, record the Israelis attacking these invaders then post it up to make Israel look like the bully for defending their border. It has already happened and is happening again.

edit on 6/5/2011 by Misoir because: (no reason given)

Shooting unarmed people is bad no matter how you put it, imaginary border or not, doesn't make a difference.

According to Sky news, 20 have been shot including a 12 year old boy!! and 120 more injured!!!!!

Source

Twenty protesters, including a 12-year-old boy, have been shot dead by Israeli forces near the border fence on Golan Heights, Syrian state television is reporting. Another 120 people were injured, according to the TV station.

Was the 12 year old boy a threat to the IDF ?

Hey.. its just a country defending its borders.

It's like that time all the Mexican's crossed into America.. and the Marines opened fire and killed a bunch of them. Remember that time? Oh yeah.. no. Because if America did something like that we would be condemned and called murderers. But when Israel does it.. its just them defending themselves as usual.

Remember kids, Israel is ALWAYS right, no matter what.

reply to post by DerekJR321


I wish I could give that comment more than one star!

This action is just wrong... I don't care how you try to paint it...

Indiscriminately firing into a crowd of people because they might cross your borders is barbaric...

The Israeli's are getting out of control... If the UN was an honest organization they would impose sanctions...

reply to post by backinblack


Ummm.. They were given Verbal warnings - the idiots didnt stop. Then they shot tear gas, and shot live fire into the Air. The psychopaths still didnt stop.

All i can say is Bravvo to Israel for backing up their warning with real bullets. This is what happens when you try to so, as the first poster said, "force Israels hand into an unavoidable situation' and then when they finally make good their warnings to the psychopath..... the Arab world, CNN, BBC and all the other news establishments try their hardest to blow it out of proportion. Fortunately, the CNN article i read seems to be fairly balanced. A nice change for once.

If this happened anywhere else - and it does happen in many other countries - this would be the natural response. First you warn them - dont cross into our country illegally, and if they dont listen, you shoot them. I wonder how many countries would shoot tear gas as a detterant before they shot live fire? Israel is quite unnusual with what they have to do for the sake of appeasement.

Its as if you honestly expect - in your complete terrorist loving lunacy - for Israel to just lie down and allow the Syrians to just cross into their country. .... Its bloody hilarious! And its hilarious because this is literally what you believe, thinking there is nothing wrong with it.

And as for Syrias claims of '25' murdered. This same country whose state countrolled media says "everythings ok" - when theyre killing hundreds of their own alawi citizens who are sick and tired of syrias tyranical assad dynasty. This same country who human rights groups say have killed upwards of 500 in the last 3 months?

Right. If you have a brain you will understand that Syria probably SENT these arabs across the border to get the negative press off of them and back onto Israel

Damn right. And I'd shoot anhyone trying to br4each the borders of my country too if I was a soldier and that was my job.

Any country in the world has that right, but oh no, not the Israelis.

The funny part is people don't really know why they hate Israel so much. Rationally they can't really explain how they can comment not once on things happening elsewhere in the world but when Israel do something they rise up inside like a tiger and a bile issues forth like some ferocious dog.

reply to post by TheWalkingFox


And?

This actually happens quite often in other lands. In "kuzestan" (or Arabistan to Arabs) in Iran. In Northern Iraq - with Turks and Kurds. Forget about the southern Sudan where *suprise surprise* millions of black muslims and animists have been murdered by the racist and colonialist northern Arabs..

Why are these situations so easily ignored....? Even though the numbers killed (for instance, in Turkey, northern Iraq and western Iran, where hundreds of thousands of Kurds have been killed) goes relatively unnoticed. Atleast not so important to call UN security council meetings...

Golan heights is disputed territoy. So is Khuzestan, in Iran (which is what the Iran/Iraq war was about). As is Tibet - with China. Kashmir ? Now compare the size of golan heights - to kashmir . Its a joke that you make such a big deal about this. Heres a fact. You can fit 222 golan heights into Kashmir

And BTW - since you like to ignore facts. How did Israel gain the golan Heights? Which country north-east of Israel decided to attack Israel unprovoked? Thats what #ing happens when another country launches an attack on another country. They take a risk. Thet launched that war - and told all the Arabs in Israel to get out - because they wanted to take over the lands they failed to win in the '48 war. They lost in '48, and lost again in '67. Unlike in '48, '67 was resounding success. The Arabs lost the Sinai, Gaza (gave the sinai to egypt for a promise), Jordan (or Eastern Palestine before 1922) lost Judea and Samaria (called by the Jordanians, and todays ignoramuses "the westbank" - which was originally predominantly Jewish land before the Arabs - jordanian, conquered it after '48. ) and Syria lost the golan heights.

This is war thewalkingliar. OK? Understand? If someone were to attack me intent on taking what was mine....and lets say i manage to get something that is his. and he asks for it back..... I got two words for him. Guess what they are.

reply to post by daggyz


They hate israel because they hear about it so much. It is simply an example of "repeat a lie over and over again and it'll be taken as truth"... Theres no logical reason for why Israel should be treated the way it is.

Most sane Arabs would prefer to live in Israel - which has even gone so far to make Arabic the second official language - then in the 21 other ultra conservative Arab countries

If I had dozens or hundreds of Syrians and/or Palestinians running towards me I too would shoot without hesitation!

reply to post by dontreally

Its as if you honestly expect - in your complete terrorist loving lunacy - for Israel to just lie down and allow the Syrians to just cross into their country. .... Its bloody hilarious! And its hilarious because this is literally what you believe, thinking there is nothing wrong with it.

Sure mate..
You just keep on reading your Israeli revised history book and atlas and you may even believe the BS you preach..
As far as the International voice is concerned it was Syrians closing into Syrian land..
Oh, and why did Israel occupy it?
Here's a gem..

In 1976, Israeli defense minister Moshe Dayan said that Israel provoked more than 80% of the clashes with Syria, although historians have voiced skepticism regarding the truthfulness of this informal comment.[72] Jan Mühren, a former UN observer in the area at the time, told a Dutch current affairs programme that Israel provoked most border incidents as part of its strategy to annex more land.[73]

en.wikipedia.org...

It's been pretty damn obvious since it's creation that Israel had ZERO intention of sticking to the land that was stolen from the Arabs and given to them and nothing has changed except the world is now waking up to their actions..
Even US politicians,as corrupted by Zionists as they are, are finding it harder and harder to deceive the US taxpayer into believing Israel is the good guy..

Originally posted by bluemirage5
If I had dozens or hundreds of Syrians and/or Palestinians running towards me I too would shoot without hesitation!

We I guess if you were in the US where guns are allowed, it would be akin to standing on your neighbors front yard and shooting your neighbor when they tried to get in..

But heck, why let a little thing like that stop you shooting even little kids?
It's pretty obvious you/Israel have never liked your neighbors anyway..

Originally posted by Vitchilo
reply to post by ZeroKnowledge

 

No. You put the riot police on the border with CS gas, sound weapons and rubber bullets. And you put the army behind them.

Anyone shoots, the army shoots back. All unarmed, the riot police takes care of it.

So what if protesters get 50-100m in Israel? Doesn't matter.

What Israel is doing now is bad PR once again.

edit on 5-6-2011 by Vitchilo because: (no reason given)

Israel is in a no win PR situation. If they let them cross and riot police have to beat the crossing protesters down to detain them, it might be even worse from a PR standpoint with video of Israeli forces clubbing down protesters.

I agree that other non lethal means should have been tried first. Is there video of the event? It sounds like it was a mass crossing, which would have made things crazy.